Dyno?

[Grizzly]

Hi all.

I have recently had the Fd set up and when i received the Print out i noticed the Torque Curve sort of Drops off between 4500 and 5500 then Picks up again as the revs increase.



I am not too clued up on Dyno print outs but from what i have seen this looks like i have an issue or a Fault as it still does it on lower boost (its not very clear but big red line is 1 bar and just under it is a Yellow line which is 0.8 bar the lower lines where on a Different IC that was holding it back but the dip is still there)

A Basic Mod list:

PFC with Profec B2 Boost controller
Mild Ported Motor with 3mm seals
Hybrid 60-1 turbo (.96 hot side), HKS Divided manifold, 50mm WG
3" exhaust (decat)
Stock Primary Injectors and 1600cc secondary’s, Aeromoive FPR, 044 Pump
WI Injection ( 50/50 .6mm jet by the Throttles)
HKS Twin Power (10's and 11's Plugs)
Blitz FMIC

I was told by the Dyno operator that the dip was due to poor gas flow through the Manifold, but i have read that if the manifold had reached its peak flow the Torque wouldn't climb anymore?

Can anyone enlighten me as this is an Area i really know little about?

Thanks

[RETed]

Who did the P-FC tuning?
It looks like a tuning issue...


-Ted

[Grizzly]

It was set up by a Rotary specialist in the UK.

Have this video too if it helps

[RETed]

Don't know too much about the scene in the UK, so I can't comment on "rotary specialist"...

I do have experience with the DynaPack dyno...

My personal car that I did some quick tuning after swapping turbos - the old turbo died.
1987 FC turbo, 13BT, compressor upgrade T04E "60 trim", 10psi
Not as much power as yours, but you see the general trend of the graph...



Thick red was baseline run
Thick green was after tuning the Haltech E8 to get rid of that dip from 4.5k+.

That dip sorta kinda looks like yours...
So I know you can tune it better to get rid of it.

The above dyno was only about 30 minutes of tuning.
It picked up 10 - 15 lb-ft of torque from 5k+.
I maybe did 3 runs total after baseline.
I was surprised it managed to hit 240 on the DynaPack.
Adjusted for DynoJet #'s, conservatively, it's in the 260's range.
The car was still running *stock* fuel pump, so there was no reason to go any further.


-Ted

[RICE RACING]

Originally Posted by Grizzly

It was set up by a Rotary specialist in the UK.

Have this video too if it helps

I watched you video.

The real reason is the Air Fuel mixture in the mid range once the turbine is at full speed / full boost is it has too much excess fuel and this drowns the engine and your tq and thus power curve.

The HKS DLI is a gutless piece of shit to be using on a water injected car PERIOD. If you need to keep it you will make another 50+rwhp more at the same boost by setting the AFR at a much more correct rate, assuming you have the right amount of WM50 going through the engine.

For street cars and conventional set ups > There is a sweet spot on AFR that starts around 10.8:1 anytime you are below this you end up with dis proportionate power losses, and this explains your DIP *YOUR TUNER SHOULD KNOW THIS!* (NOTE). ***There is no magic answer though for this for people who want to copy or recite the info*** each and every set up is different as is the application, some I run AFR in the 8's or below! that an AFR instrument wont even properly measure the figures! and that is with water injection as well. But do you want to make 1100bhp from a 13B reliably using petrol??? are you running a spark system you could weld with??? Do you even need to consider such things?????

If it bothers you then chase it, if not you will not fuck the engine because of it, just means it is a very safe set up, that is leaving a fair chunk of power on the table. The way it is it could run with or without the Water Injection so without knowing your personal situation that could be just what you want rather than chasing every last HP so you can compare cock sizes to random fagots on the interweb of gayness

[Mazdabater]

Originally Posted by RICE RACING

The HKS DLI is a gutless piece of shit to be using on a water injected car PERIOD.

I know a guy that sold me one of these and said it would be fine....

[RICE RACING]

Originally Posted by Mazdabater

I know a guy that sold me one of these and said it would be fine....

LOL

Up to 20psi and with the right excess fuel ratio they work

When you want to roll with the big boys then its total arse

[Raksj04]

Originally Posted by RICE RACING

LOL

Up to 20psi and with the right excess fuel ratio they work

When you want to roll with the big boys then its total arse

I am thinking about getting your water injector kit for my FC after we noticed that my TMIC with my cheap carbon fiber hood is basically useless.

[Grizzly]

Originally Posted by RICE RACING

If it bothers you then chase it, if not you will not fuck the engine because of it, just means it is a very safe set up, that is leaving a fair chunk of power on the table. The way it is it could run with or without the Water Injection so without knowing your personal situation that could be just what you want rather than chasing every last HP so you can compare cock sizes to random fagots on the interweb of gayness

Thanks for the Reply.

I understand the Map is going to be on the safe said but i'm just a little upset that the dip hasn't been tuned out tbh, if you look at the lower plot lines they are without WI and using a PFS SMIC as opposed to the Blitz FMIC that’s on it now, you can still see the dip in a similar place which is why i thought it may have been a fault with something rather than the tuner didn't bother to smooth it out.

I don't pretend to know much about the tuning side of things which is why i use a Tuner

[RICE RACING]

In that case I apologize for my comments as it looks like then it is not the WI causing your dip.

Need to look into it further to see what is ultimately causing it.

[Grizzly]

I just watched the Video a cupple of times and at around 4500 the afr drops from upper 10's to aprox 10.2 afr is that what should be tuned out so it stays solid at for example 10.7 whilst your hitting peak boost? or wouldn't that make much of a diffrence?

[RETed]

Originally Posted by Grizzly

I just watched the Video a cupple of times and at around 4500 the afr drops from upper 10's to aprox 10.2 afr is that what should be tuned out so it stays solid at for example 10.7 whilst your hitting peak boost? or wouldn't that make much of a diffrence?

It was either going to be too much fuel or not enough fuel...
Either or would cause that dip.
Going with the AFR's you mentioned, it sure sounds like too much fuel...

I wouldn't get critical of the AFR's (and also total ignition advance) until you start to get close to maximum torque.
Looking at your graph, it looks to be right under 6k RPM (if that dip wasn't there).
Running in the 10's that far away from peak torque is just way too much fuel, especially when it's on the lower RPM side of the peak.

With the car on the dyno, that's all you really need in terms of "tools."
(I can argue EGT gauge at this point, but most of you are already tired of that. )
Just adjust fuel as long as power keeps going up - simple.
People get too caught up with AFR's, etc. to understand the dynamics of tuning.


-Ted

[TitaniumTT]

Originally Posted by Grizzly

The car was set up to 1.1bar of Boost and it does run 50/50 Meth Water mix but through a 0.6mm Jet by the Throttles and comes on at 0.7 bar, the only thing i can say is the Meth/Water mix is sending it rich maybe? Could it have been set like this to keep it on the rich side so airing on the side of Caution?

That much meth is going to skew the AFR's, either way though..... low 10's on only pump is too rich

Originally Posted by RETed

It was either going to be too much fuel or not enough fuel...
Either or would cause that dip.
Going with the AFR's you mentioned, it sure sounds like too much fuel...

I wouldn't get critical of the AFR's (and also total ignition advance) until you start to get close to maximum torque.
Looking at your graph, it looks to be right under 6k RPM (if that dip wasn't there).
Running in the 10's that far away from peak torque is just way too much fuel, especially when it's on the lower RPM side of the peak.

With the car on the dyno, that's all you really need in terms of "tools."
(I can argue EGT gauge at this point, but most of you are already tired of that. )

I'm not.... seriously... too many people don't monitor EGT's or have a single probe in the DP.... worthless...

Originally Posted by RETed

Just adjust fuel as long as power keeps going up - simple.
People get too caught up with AFR's, etc. to understand the dynamics of tuning.


-Ted

That.....

[Grizzly]

Originally Posted by TitaniumTT

That much meth is going to skew the AFR's, either way though..... low 10's on only pump is too rich

Would you say the meth is needed at my level (450hp at just under 1.1bar) i did do allot of thinking about it at the time and it was deamed the way to go just to keep the lines / Jets clean and it won't freeze in winter but now a bit on i'm thinking i've lost out of some extra Water Cooling effect and caused a tuning issue (its set up rich and if its tweaked back to 11's for argument sake and the Pump stops and then would that send me very lean on Boost)

I have one more question, are datalogits and Wideband kits a good thing to have or is it a case of Not clever in the wrong hands. TBh i proberly wouldn't like to touch the map myself buy i don't like the idea its been set up by some one who hasn't tuned out some thing that Ovious and i'd like to see what the rest of the maps doing.

[RETed]

Originally Posted by Grizzly

Would you say the meth is needed at my level (450hp at just under 1.1bar) i did do allot of thinking about it at the time and it was deamed the way to go just to keep the lines / Jets clean and it won't freeze in winter but now a bit on i'm thinking i've lost out of some extra Water Cooling effect and caused a tuning issue (its set up rich and if its tweaked back to 11's for argument sake and the Pump stops and then would that send me very lean on Boost)

We run 92 octane (R+M/2) over here, and 1.1bar of boost would be in the edge of our pump gas.
We can run that kinda boost, but I'll drop the total ignition advance a little just to keep it on the safe side.
I'll take the several percentage points drop in power just to keep the engine safe on the street with the deviation in gasoline (octane) quality.

RICE RACING is da man to talk to when talking about that supplemental injection stuff.
In fact, there's a good thread in another section somewhere where there's a lot of good numbers for this kinda stuff.
I personally don't touch this stuff, so I'm not qualified to answer such questions.

Just looking at your graph though...
You're losing around 20 lb-ft (or more) in that "dip" section.
That's a pretty significant amount of power, especially in the middle of your power band.
It would be nice to fix it and gain back that lost power.

I have one more question, are datalogits and Wideband kits a good thing to have or is it a case of Not clever in the wrong hands. TBh i proberly wouldn't like to touch the map myself buy i don't like the idea its been set up by some one who hasn't tuned out some thing that Ovious and i'd like to see what the rest of the maps doing.

I'm not a P-FC / Datalogit tuner, but the Datalogit does offer additional features that the P-FC Commander doesn't.
It looks like it unlocks a bunch of auxiliary maps and allows (more) datalogging.
Datalogging can be of great help for tuners, or if you do a lot of adjustments (driving by) yourself.

It still comes down to the capabilities of the tuner...
You can give the best tools to a crappy tuner, but it still won't help if they don't know how to utilize those tools.
A good tuner can get by with barebones monitoring (i.e. gauges) and tools, and still be more effective than the crappy tuner.


-Ted