Plain Jane OEM nothing to see here rebuild

[JL1RX7]

Damn Jeff you have yet to catch a break on this rebuild/build at all.

[JustJeff]

Damn Jeff you have yet to catch a break on this rebuild/build at all.

Tell me bout it brotha!! I understand that in every large project you need to plan for the unexpected.....but damn!!

[JustJeff]

Oh one tool I bought so that I'm sure my coolant seals are intact. Atkins coolant seal tester!!!

[JustJeff]

Sooo the saga continues. I haven't sourced a flywheel yet, but I figure I can get the engine assembled and at least get the garage organized. I was doing final cleaning and organizing to do the rebuild this week. And I find a nice little nick in my rear stat gear bearing!! I mean wtf? There is no damage on the eshaft so I don't know what or how..but it's there.

I've got a spare gear from the N/A engine and the bearing looks pretty alright. There is no copper showing. But I may spend for the new one. Seems a pity to have the front one new and the rear one used.

[JustJeff]

Disregard the post. It was a dumb question I answered by searching...

[JustJeff]

Bearing replaced. I bought an automatic rear counterweight in prep for getting an ACT Streetlite flywheel.

I have two questions about my rear counterweight

I measure the distance between my fingers to confirm that it is a S5 rear counterweight?
http://sphotos-c.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-frc1/885848_10200212141720602_261950212_o.jpg
S5 = 12.52 to 12.85 mm
S4 = 13.23 to 13.92 mm

I believe that this wear is fine, but need to make sure
http://sphotos-a.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/882026_10200212141120587_1627278758_o.jpg

[RETed]

Bearing replaced. I bought an automatic rear counterweight in prep for getting an ACT Streetlite flywheel.

I have two questions about my rear counterweight

I measure the distance between my fingers to confirm that it is a S5 rear counterweight?

There's no real way to discern the difference between the two?
In fact, I heard a rumor that if you order a new counterweight from Mazda, the part is identical for all FC years and the part #'s are identical - the new counterweights are NOT drilled, and you had to get them balanced yourself???
As a general rule for the counterweights - the S5 had more holes drilled in them versus the S4.
I weighted them once, and the difference was 0.2 lbs., which was the increment on my 100lbs. max digital scale. :(
So I think the difference will be a matter of ounces and even down to grams...?


I believe that this wear is fine, but need to make sure
Is that a groove (black line) in the counterweight???
I have NEVER seen a groove worn into the metal like that in my life.
Did you get an explanation for the groove?
That might wreck the rear oil seal?


-Ted

[JustJeff]

Is that a groove (black line) in the counterweight???
I have NEVER seen a groove worn into the metal like that in my life.
Did you get an explanation for the groove?
That might wreck the rear oil seal?


Not so much a groove, it's shiny from wear...if you run your finger over it you can barely feel it. I do not know the history on it other than it came out of a 90. It's an eBay purchase, so I may not get a response to questions.

Since concerns have been raised, it was also painted, which I planned on lightly sanding off, but it has a small notch in it also. Is that small ding enough to cause balance issues?
http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/886801_10200213745440694_779215451_o.jpg
http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc1/887458_10200213744040659_75869256_o.jpg


I assume that taking it to a machine shop would then affect clearance between seal and counterweight?

[RETed]

Not so much a groove, it's shiny from wear...if you run your finger over it you can barely feel it. I do not know the history on it other than it came out of a 90. It's an eBay purchase, so I may not get a response to questions.

Hmmm...my vision was pretty bad last night due to a horrible few days at work, so you have to excuse me a bit.
I just saw that black line and went *WHAT?*.
So the black line is caused by paint?
There should be no other reason why such a black line be on that part of the counterweight due to normal use.

I'm also a little bit worried about you stating: "if you run your finger over it you can barely feel it."
It's in constant contact with a silicone oil seal that's rotating.
It it were a perfect world, that area should be smooth.
A slight imperfection could easily destroy the oil seal in short order. :(


Since concerns have been raised, it was also painted, which I planned on lightly sanding off, but it has a small notch in it also. Is that small ding enough to cause balance issues?
That ding doesn't look that bad.
There are vendors that offer (re)balancing services if you're that worried.


I assume that taking it to a machine shop would then affect clearance between seal and counterweight?
You can talk to the machine shop and ask them for their advice.
Explain the situation, and they should be able to give you an answer?
A competent machine should know proper clearances for this application with this type of seal...


-Ted

[JustJeff]

Hmmm...my vision was pretty bad last night due to a horrible few days at work, so you have to excuse me a bit.
I just saw that black line and went *WHAT?*.
So the black line is caused by paint?
There should be no other reason why such a black line be on that part of the counterweight due to normal use.

I'm also a little bit worried about you stating: "if you run your finger over it you can barely feel it."
It's in constant contact with a silicone oil seal that's rotating.
It it were a perfect world, that area should be smooth.
A slight imperfection could easily destroy the oil seal in short order. :(

That ding doesn't look that bad.
There are vendors that offer (re)balancing services if you're that worried.

You can talk to the machine shop and ask them for their advice.
Explain the situation, and they should be able to give you an answer?
A competent machine should know proper clearances for this application with this type of seal...


-Ted


Sorry about the confusion, the whole flat side of the weight had been painted (poorly) in silver.

The line is actually a shinny ring. It doesn't make a groove, just a different texture. I posted pics on "the other" forum and a couple of experienced members pretty much said "no big whoop", that it's normal wear.

I contacted the seller and was of course told, "I assure you it works perfectly, I was using it on my engine with no issues"

[RETed]

The seller is an idiot for painting that part in the first place...
I would try and strip away the paint before installing.
Even paint chips that can possible flake away can chew up the rear oil seal.
You don't want to be replacing just that seal if it does fail. :(


-Ted

[JustJeff]

The seller is an idiot for painting that part in the first place...
I would try and strip away the paint before installing.
Even paint chips that can possible flake away can chew up the rear oil seal.
You don't want to be replacing just that seal if it does fail. :(


-Ted

Yeah the plan is to strip the paint off.

I wish there was one voice of opinions spoken about that ring on the counterweight. It makes me nervous thinking about the nightmare a failed rear main would cause me.

Other than choosing the flywheel the engine is ready to be assembled. I'll probably assemble it the week after this week. I'm in school for a 2nd degree and midterms are this coming week.

[JustJeff]

Disregard this post. I am at times an idiot. My questions were answered...

[JustJeff]

Want some opinions on the pittiing on these housings.
http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z259/justjeff_photos/Housing%20pitting/20130311_133221.jpg

http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z259/justjeff_photos/Housing%20pitting/20130311_131527.jpg

http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z259/justjeff_photos/Housing%20pitting/20130311_131356.jpg

http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z259/justjeff_photos/Housing%20pitting/20130311_131339.jpg

http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z259/justjeff_photos/Housing%20pitting/20130311_131317.jpg

http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z259/justjeff_photos/Housing%20pitting/20130311_130657.jpg

[JustJeff]

Update:

I used JB Weld on the suspect area just to be sure...sanded it down of course. Engine is assembled up to oil pump, front stack and cover.
http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/886529_10200402857488377_1261900690_o.jpg

I have class part of tomorrow but I'll finish up the meat of the engine tomorrow. One thing I don't remember and I know I've asked in the past. When setting play on the front stack do I want the flywheel on with the nut tightened down to spec?

[RETed]

I used JB Weld on the suspect area just to be sure...sanded it down of course. Engine is assembled up to oil pump, front stack and cover.
The problem with using any kinda epoxy in that kinda environment is:
1) heat cycling will cause the epoxy to loosen or even break up,
2) Additional exposure to coolant and / or combustion gases can only hurt.

I've used housing like that, and Hylomar takes care of any worries of sealing.


When setting play on the front stack do I want the flywheel on with the nut tightened down to spec?
Doesn't matter...
If fact, it'll make it harder to do the end play procedure with more weight on the e-shaft.
The only thing that matters is that the "front stack" is complete and torqued down to spec.
This includes everything under the front oil cover + front pulley boss + front eccentric shaft bolt torqued to spec.


-Ted

[Rotary Evolution]

a MBC set at 0 doesn't vent anything, it actually allows all pressure to get to the wastegate, when raising boost with it it will vent slightly to lower the pressure opening the wastegate.

i would get a lower temp thermostat, check the water pump, blow any crap out of the radiator core and check for obstructions. if all else fails check to see if the cooling system is overpressurizing.

edit: apparently it didn't go to the last page so nevermind.

[JustJeff]

Core of the engine is assembled
http://sphotos-c.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/883732_10200420949140657_320059031_o.jpg

I bought a coolant seal pressure tester, used it and we are good on the coolant seal front.

Endplay on the front stack was borderline .028-.031ish so I used a different K spacer which I had to sand down a touch. Final endplay on the swapped and sanded K spacer is .002.

Outside of the actually install on the engine, the hardest part is going to be remember/figuring out my vacuum routing. I'm hoping to have the engine back in the car over the weekend, but that might a little ambitious as I'm a little backed up on schoolwork.

[Rotary Evolution]

i would also recommend ditching that "engine destroyer" plastic water pump neck and install an aluminum one.

[JustJeff]

a MBC set at 0 doesn't vent anything, it actually allows all pressure to get to the wastegate, when raising boost with it it will vent slightly to lower the pressure opening the wastegate.

i would get a lower temp thermostat, check the water pump, blow any crap out of the radiator core and check for obstructions. if all else fails check to see if the cooling system is overpressurizing.

edit: apparently it didn't go to the last page so nevermind.

Excellent point on the MBC.

I believe I sorted out the cooling problem. I did not have my Taurus efan wired correctly. But I'm curious what temp thermostat you'd suggest. I have a 195 on thermoswitch for my efan. Moving my thermostat further away would save my thermostat and efan fighting each other.

i would also recommend ditching that "engine destroyer" plastic water pump neck and install an aluminum one.

I've never heard it called that. Other than a tendency for the plastic one to harden/crack/fail, what else should I know? For the record, I have a spare plastic one so I doubt I'd spring for the $100 aluminum one from Mazdatrix till I need it.

[Pete_89T2]

I've never heard it called that. Other than a tendency for the plastic one to harden/crack/fail, what else should I know? For the record, I have a spare plastic one so I doubt I'd spring for the $100 aluminum one from Mazdatrix till I need it.

You've got it right. The plastic T-stat necks can crack if torqued down a little too tight, and being plastic they will tend to get brittle with age, and how they would react to various chemical products it may be exposed to over time is an unknown.

I haven't heard anyone complaining about these things failing in a catastrophic way, and plastic T-stat necks are used in just about every car out there today and have been for many years. When they do fail typically it's a hairline crack at the base area that results in a trickle leak (not a full dump of coolant). If it's not neglected, this kind of failure won't end up blowing your engine.

The AL replacement part is nice, but I'd save the money for something more important, especially being that you have a spare stock part handy.

[JustJeff]

When I started driving my first convertible many many years ago...that plastic neck was the first part which failed on me.

[JustJeff]

Finally the engine is back where she belongs!!!
http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/904715_10200471537805342_933710680_o.jpg

This time around I left the transmission on the car. I think I now prefer pulling only the engine. I saved so much work in NOT having to drop the exhaust, remove the heatshields to get to transmission mount and convertible support. I didn't have to drain my transmission fluid, etc.

Install was much easier than I expected. Initially getting the transmission spline lined up and in was the hardest part. Jacking up the transmission helped greatly. Once that got lined up it I simply used a spare AC compressor mounting bolt and nut through the top bolt hole as well as the long starter through bolt. Once I was able to start tightening those down it was simply a matter of walking the bolts in place.

[RETed]

Finally the engine is back where she belongs!!!

This time around I left the transmission on the car. I think I now prefer pulling only the engine. I saved so much work in NOT having to drop the exhaust, remove the heatshields to get to transmission mount and convertible support. I didn't have to drain my transmission fluid, etc.

Install was much easier than I expected. Initially getting the transmission spline lined up and in was the hardest part. Jacking up the transmission helped greatly. Once that got lined up it I simply used a spare AC compressor mounting bolt and nut through the top bolt hole as well as the long starter through bolt. Once I was able to start tightening those down it was simply a matter of walking the bolts in place.

Yep, once you get used to this procedure, you're always going to insist on doing it this way...

When lining up the splines, it really helps to have another body helping you.
Have the person push the engine from the front as hard as they can.
If you're underneath the car, shift trans in 1st or 2nd gear and spin the driveshaft with your hand.
(Make sure parking brake is off.)
If you're on top of the engine bay, crank over the front eccentric shaft or alternator - if you got the belts installed - to turn the engine over.

Good job!


-Ted

[Gregory Casimir]

congrats dude hope to see it running again

[JustJeff]

Yep, once you get used to this procedure, you're always going to insist on doing it this way...

When lining up the splines, it really helps to have another body helping you.
Have the person push the engine from the front as hard as they can.
If you're underneath the car, shift trans in 1st or 2nd gear and spin the driveshaft with your hand.
(Make sure parking brake is off.)
If you're on top of the engine bay, crank over the front eccentric shaft or alternator - if you got the belts installed - to turn the engine over.

Good job!


-Ted

I had a helper but they had to leave partway through. We got the splines lined up by jacking the transmission up a bit and pushing the top of the engine back towards the firewall. We had to take the driver side engine mount off to allow clearance. Helper had to leave but it was good timing in that we got the splines lined up and the rest I was able to solo. We were turning the engine via socket wrench on the front bolt.

congrats dude hope to see it running again

Thanks, Provided I don't have to have spark plugs brought in from another location or a warehouse I should be driving it early in the week. Things got slowed down yesterday because I decided to move my MBC from the shocktower to one of the air pump bracket bolt holes. Problem being, I had the housing powdercoated so there is coating in the holes and on the threads.

Does anyone know if the thread on those holes is M8x1.25? Those are the only 12mm head bolts I have and with the powder in there I don't want to force matters if it's the wrong thread. And, I don't want to start running a tap through there to clean it up if it isn't the same pitch.

[JustJeff]

Talk about frustratingly slow progress. Finally have everything BUT the alternator and battery buttoned up. I seem to have lost my only alt belt adjustment bar. Literally I had it 2 days ago and now it is no where to be found. Unless it evolved into having legs and walked away it is in the polebarn...somewhere...?? I took my UIM off thinking maybe I left it lying on top of the engine. I got under the car and checked crossmembers and heatshields to see if it fell in or on one. I have no idea where this thing is....and of course I threw out my spare one thinking "why would I ever need another one of these"?

I'm gonna tear apart the polebarn in the AM. If I don't find it I'm heading to my local junkyards. I already know there aren't any 7s on the lots, but maybe I can find a Camary one. According to a 7club thread they are nearly direct swaps.

[JustJeff]

Bahahaha!!

Edited my previous post because I'm easily confused and apparently so is the guy who works at Advanced Auto. Thought my starter was bad, but it was my wiring, or lack there of. I did not have the small single harness attached and couldn't remember if it was used or not. Took the starter to be tested with intent of watching how they wired it up for test. The employee did not use the small spade on the starter and I assumed he knew what he was doing. Starter tested bad and I bought a new replacement. When I bolted it up and had the same behavior I knew something was wrong. Took the OEM supposedly bad starter to a friend at another Advanced. I told him how I had wired it up...and yes he gave me the look of "are you a damn idiot??" He tested and the starter is just fine.

[JustJeff]

Engine is up and running!!

But, it still has the same bad bogging and event stalling if the throttle goes up with much of any quickness. Even bumping the RPMS from idle to 2k will cause it to bog and stall. It was doing this before rebuild and I thought I had found the cause in that my charge pipe to cold side coupler was splitting as I was dismantling things for teardown. I thought it had a small tear and my problem was a vacuum and pressure leak. That is not the case.

I'm still bleeding the coolant so I haven't had much time to diagnose anything. What I did notice is that the engine idles better and has less of a problem when vacuum hose that feeds my OEM boost sensor as well as my boost gauge is off the UIM. I use the nipple below the BAC with a tee to feed both OEM boost sensor as well as my aftermarket boost gauge.

When time permits I'll start testing TPS, OEM boost sensor, AFM, etc. Any thoughts on this would be appreciated.

[diabolical1]

congratulations. always good to see a first start. when you get it to stop pissing antifreeze, my first thought for your other issue is the TPS.

[JustJeff]

I've got the throttle thing sorted out. The throttle cable had too much slack on it.

My new problem is timing and fouling of plugs. My trailing timing does not line up. leading is dead on. Engine warmed up, RPMs around 750ish. TPS set to 1V in idle position. But trailing timing is advanced just about halfway between the leading and trailing marks.

I went through my ECU pins looking at voltage. I found a couple of oddities:

1) Clutch switch on the front of the clutch pedal was dead. I replaced that and confirmed the ECU is seeing a signal from it.

2) AC relay and A/C switch both show 12V whether A/C switch is on or off

3) Neutral switch shows no change at ECU between Neutral and in gear...but IIRC I do not have a neutral switch on my JDM transmission.

4) Oxygen sensor was way off, but that might be because my engine is running really rich??
It's supposed to be Idle-below 1V, Accel -.5-1V, Decel -0-.4V.
Mine idled at 29.6mV, I wasn't driving with DMM on, but I throttled the pedal Accel-22mV, Decel-26mV

5) The other oddity was my TPS narrow at first seemed to be dead. Even though it showed 1V at the sensor and shows a clean sweep. At the ECU it showed very badly 2.64V and never really changed much as the throttle changed. Before writing off my TPS I checked it again another day and it read dead on that time. I checked it at the sensor first. Then checked it at the ECU and it had the same reading....very strange. It might not have been backprobed correctly the first time, but I thought I checked it and double checked it.

6) Full range on the TPS is definitely off by a bit. It should read .8V at idle and mine sits at .54V. Can I get some feedback on that one? On the one hand off by .26V doesn't seem bad, BUT that is a significant amount when it's 1.4 of the total spec reading.

I have an Innovate wideband on it's way to me. I'm hoping to have it installed this weekend.

[RETed]

1) Clutch switch on the front of the clutch pedal was dead. I replaced that and confirmed the ECU is seeing a signal from it.
When mines went bad, the engine tended to idle slightly higher than normal.


2) AC relay and A/C switch both show 12V whether A/C switch is on or off
I believe the circuit pulls to ground - the switch grounds out at the A/C compressor?
Also, I believe there's a pressure sensor switch (for safety reasons) is wired in series to the circuit...which could be the culprit?


3) Neutral switch shows no change at ECU between Neutral and in gear...but IIRC I do not have a neutral switch on my JDM transmission.
I know this affects the cold-start idle on initial cranking...


4) Oxygen sensor was way off, but that might be because my engine is running really rich??
It's supposed to be Idle-below 1V, Accel -.5-1V, Decel -0-.4V.
Mine idled at 29.6mV, I wasn't driving with DMM on, but I throttled the pedal Accel-22mV, Decel-26mV
This is odd, but it should not affect anything outside of slightly worse gas mileage...
It should see at least 0.5VDC at idle and decent acceleration.


6) Full range on the TPS is definitely off by a bit. It should read .8V at idle and mine sits at .54V. Can I get some feedback on that one? On the one hand off by .26V doesn't seem bad, BUT that is a significant amount when it's 1.4 of the total spec reading.
This might trigger one of those nasty E-OMP error codes which could trigger limp-home mode...


-Ted

[JustJeff]

^ I checked codes a while back and the only ones I had were for my solenoids from emissions delete and the AWS which my JDM does not have.

Although that is not entirely true. I pulled codes shortly after install and initial startup and had codes for every major sensor. After resetting the ECU they all disappeared..well other than the emissions and AWS.

I'm leaving now to reset idle, recheck TPS voltage, check timing, if time premits I'll backprobe my ECU and see if those readings are still the same.

As a general overview, I think I have some fundamental wiring issues going on. My AEM gauge will spontaneously show way over boost/vac. The last time it did it 5psi boost was the reference point during it's shutdown procedure. On startup and shutdown it will generally go to it's baseline then either dropdown and start operating, or shutdown. I didn't look when I first started up the engine but saw it while driving. When I turned the engine off the closing ceremony had it reference to 5psi.

Also my aftermarket alarm was so out of sorts that I disconnected the alarm cpu entirely. I didn't have constant power going to it at all and when I started disconnected negative wiring at the battery my alarm siren starts going off very faintly. Very strange in that the alarm should not have been getting any juice at all. When I reconnected the ground wire for the siren (connected directly to the battery sidepost) my siren starts going off full blast...again without having constant power to the alarm cpu.

Other oddities, my dome light is non-functional. The last time I checked voltage at my TPS I turned IGN to ON and did not get any ticking of the BAC for some time..then all the sudden it kicked on. Now I did have my ECU harness for TPS (IIRC the 2 harness) disconnected. Part of working today will be checking out whether having that harness disconnected replicates that same thing.

My wideband should be here tomorrow. Hoping to have it up and running this weekend. Maybe afr will shed some light on whatever is going on?

[RETed]

check timing,
I think I forgot to address this, but...
Ignore the trailing mark for now.
I believe the trailing ignition timing is dependent on the boost sensor signal, so that's why it's not doing the proper 15-degree split.
As long as the leading is spot on...


As a general overview, I think I have some fundamental wiring issues going on. My AEM gauge will spontaneously show way over boost/vac. The last time it did it 5psi boost was the reference point during it's shutdown procedure. On startup and shutdown it will generally go to it's baseline then either dropdown and start operating, or shutdown. I didn't look when I first started up the engine but saw it while driving. When I turned the engine off the closing ceremony had it reference to 5psi.
This sounds like it's isolated to the aftermarket boost gauge itself?
If so, then it has nothing to do with your engine running problems...

Also my aftermarket alarm was so out of sorts that I disconnected the alarm cpu entirely. I didn't have constant power going to it at all and when I started disconnected negative wiring at the battery my alarm siren starts going off very faintly. Very strange in that the alarm should not have been getting any juice at all. When I reconnected the ground wire for the siren (connected directly to the battery sidepost) my siren starts going off full blast...again without having constant power to the alarm cpu.
This is a classic case of a ground loop circuit.
Like the above, this should not have anything to do with your engine running problems...


My wideband should be here tomorrow. Hoping to have it up and running this weekend. Maybe afr will shed some light on whatever is going on?
I doubt it.
I still have my money it's the TPS or related...


-Ted

[JustJeff]

Thanks for the feedback Ted,

Something very curious happened. I found my battery was nearly dead, and not enough to crank the car. Jumped it and was letting the engine warm up and the battery charge. After it got up to temp I starting setting the idle. It was sitting at just a nudge above 1k. When it had previously dropped down to barely idling and bouncing just above 0. I had been driving it like that for a week or so and after the engine warmed up idle would sit around 800ish. So I turned down the idle to just over 500. About this time my efan kicks on. I toggle my manual switch to have it run longer and bring the temps down further so my fan isn't kicking on and off while I'm working. I toggle the fan off after temps get down low enough and as soon as I do my idle drops from the 500rpm to just barely idling.


Also while the engine was warming up and the battery was charging my boost gauge was at 0psi rather than vacuum. It would go up from there if I toggled the throttle. When I turned the engine off closing ceremony took the boost gauge to almost 10psi.


I restart the engine, boost gauge is reading correctly at about 15in/hg but rpms are still amazingly low.


Can someone explain the difference between the two idle adjustment screws.

Fast Idle

http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z259/justjeff_photos/S5%2013B%20Turbo%20throttle%20cable/20130605_155159.jpg (http://s191.photobucket.com/user/justjeff_photos/media/S5%2013B%20Turbo%20throttle%20cable/20130605_155159.jpg.html)


Not sure the name on this one, but man the pic sure captured the pollen on it (hood as been sitting up on it)

http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z259/justjeff_photos/S5%2013B%20Turbo%20throttle%20cable/20130605_155217.jpg (http://s191.photobucket.com/user/justjeff_photos/media/S5%2013B%20Turbo%20throttle%20cable/20130605_155217.jpg.html)

Fast idle is tied to thermowax and turning that screw does nothing for my idle. I am JDM with JDM BAC so I have no idle adjustment there. My only way of adjusting idle is the second pic...of which I do not know the name.

[vrracing]

I struggled with the idle setups on our JDM Tii.

I took the TB off to adjust the fast idle. I used a heat gun to test it. I put pictures and descriptions of what I did either on this or the other forum. The FSM is wrong.

The FSM talks about how to set the butterflies but nothing mapped to what was on the TB.

I used that big screw with the sleeve to set the idle. I used the two 12mm nuts on the throttle cable to ensure I had plenty of slack. IMO the engine should start and idle with the cable removed.

Don't forget the ISC. I grounded it straight to the negative terminal as I found that the bolt I was using under the main fuses wasn't working as a ground.

[JustJeff]

^ Yeah I remember you posting about your TB and I found the thread on the other forum about rebuilding them. I'm in the process of tearing down a spare USDM S5 turbo TB. I was actually going to work on it, but then found I was out of gas for my disposable torch.

So the fast idle is for when the engine is still warming up? Adjusting my fast idle does nothing. The sleaved idle is what I should be (and have been using to set idle).

ISC? Not familiar with that abreviation. I went through my grounds, or all of them I could think of and find. I did the grounding mod at the ECU. I cleaned up all the grounds down to clean metal. I've got the engine grounded on top of the keg to the firewall. I checked the engine harness ground that is on top of the engine keg. I have common grounds for gauges and headunit at the shifter bracket. I have another common ground at the driver kick panel. I went through my grounds for my stereo's amps. IIRC I got the one at the driver shock tower. I even got the one under the trailing coil. Right now my fan and alarm siren are grounded directly to the battery. Then I have an additional battery neg terminal to body chassis ground.

[RETed]

Something very curious happened. I found my battery was nearly dead, and not enough to crank the car. Jumped it and was letting the engine warm up and the battery charge. After it got up to temp I starting setting the idle. It was sitting at just a nudge above 1k. When it had previously dropped down to barely idling and bouncing just above 0. I had been driving it like that for a week or so and after the engine warmed up idle would sit around 800ish. So I turned down the idle to just over 500. About this time my efan kicks on. I toggle my manual switch to have it run longer and bring the temps down further so my fan isn't kicking on and off while I'm working. I toggle the fan off after temps get down low enough and as soon as I do my idle drops from the 500rpm to just barely idling.
When you get engine idling / running problems dependent on coolant temp, this implies the coolant temperature sensor could be the cause...
Does it check out?


Also while the engine was warming up and the battery was charging my boost gauge was at 0psi rather than vacuum. It would go up from there if I toggled the throttle. When I turned the engine off closing ceremony took the boost gauge to almost 10psi.
You talking strictly about the aftermarket boost gauge, right?
I think the aftermarket boost gauge is defective.


I restart the engine, boost gauge is reading correctly at about 15in/hg but rpms are still amazingly low.
Not possible - see above.


Can someone explain the difference between the two idle adjustment screws.

Fast Idle

Not sure the name on this one, but man the pic sure captured the pollen on it (hood as been sitting up on it)

Fast idle is tied to thermowax and turning that screw does nothing for my idle. I am JDM with JDM BAC so I have no idle adjustment there. My only way of adjusting idle is the second pic...of which I do not know the name.

In the first picture, the idle adjust screw is at the very top, middle of the pic.
I believe it's the same pic as the screw on the left in the 2nd pic?
The screw should be toward the rear of the engine, closer to the firewall.
The screw should be pointing toward to the passenger (US-spec) fender; you need to lean over the passenger fender to adjust this screw.

Don't mess with the "Fast Idle" screw, as this just adjusts the double throttle plates relative to each other - yes, it should not affect idle (that much).

This is still a stock TB, right?
No removal of the double throttle plates?


-Ted

[JustJeff]

When you get engine idling / running problems dependent on coolant temp, this implies the coolant temperature sensor could be the cause...
Does it check out?
It did at the ECU pin anyway.
FSM specs for 2E:
idle cold: .4-1.8v
water temp 68: approx 2.4v

Mine was
idle cold: .532v
water temp 58: 2.357v


You talking strictly about the aftermarket boost gauge, right?
I think the aftermarket boost gauge is defective.
Gauge is practically brand new AEM gauge. It mostly seems dead on, but every so often it bugs out and reads over. The manual that came with it broke down the voltage it sees in relations to boost the sender sees. When it is bugged out often times turning off the engine and restarting it corrects the issue.


In the first picture, the idle adjust screw is at the very top, middle of the pic.
I believe it's the same pic as the screw on the left in the 2nd pic?
The screw should be toward the rear of the engine, closer to the firewall.
The screw should be pointing toward to the passenger (US-spec) fender; you need to lean over the passenger fender to adjust this screw.

Don't mess with the "Fast Idle" screw, as this just adjusts the double throttle plates relative to each other - yes, it should not affect idle (that much).

This is still a stock TB, right?
No removal of the double throttle plates?


-Ted

It's a stock JDM TB. It has double throttle plates. I just starting rebuilding a USDM TB that I'm going to put on once it's cleaned and adjusted.

[JustJeff]

Overall I think I have wiring issues. I certainly have one for the aftermarket alarm, the boost gauge is certainly buggy.

Maybe that faulty wiring extends from accessories to actually affecting engine performance? I don't know quite yet.

[RETed]

Gauge is practically brand new AEM gauge. It mostly seems dead on, but every so often it bugs out and reads over. The manual that came with it broke down the voltage it sees in relations to boost the sender sees. When it is bugged out often times turning off the engine and restarting it corrects the issue.

I have a Trust / GReddy EGT gauge that basically does the same thing.
I'm too lazy to redo and trouble-shoot the whole thing, but it works most of the time.
The aftermarket gauge has it's own dedicated sensor and wiring, right?


-Ted

[RETed]

Overall I think I have wiring issues. I certainly have one for the aftermarket alarm, the boost gauge is certainly buggy.

Maybe that faulty wiring extends from accessories to actually affecting engine performance? I don't know quite yet.

None of the above is tapped into the "EM" (Engine Main) electrical harness, right?


-Ted

[vrracing]

Sorry, Jeff. ISC is Initial Set Connector. I believe that is the standard term. It is the single green plug near the battery/main fuses you ground whenever setting the idle. We had it on and off so much when doing the swap I made a wire with a male spade and a ring terminal. But even though it was attached to a cleaned bolt holding the main fuses to the shock tower it wasnt delivering a good signal to the ECU.

The fast idle adjustment needs to be set so that when the engine (well the wax) is cold the green topped drum is aligned with one of the marks on the cam and when hot (the piston rises) the green topped drum is aligned with the other mark on the cam.

Good luck. It gets better! :driving:

[JustJeff]

Got the wideband wired up and calibrated. Other than pulling the downpipe and having a friend weld the bung and doing the wiring the engine hasn't been started since I last set the idle and TPS a day or two ago.

Idle was set at around 750-800rpm. TPS was at 1V and ranged nicely up to 4.75V. Full range is still off by about .2something-.3V but it ranges even with no deadspots. I verified at both the TPS harness as well as the ECU.

I finish the wideband install and start up the engine and it's back to just barely being above 0rpm. I let it warm up and no change. At idle the afr was 11.7ish. I drive the car around maybe a 1 mile loop get back and idling afr was at 10.8.

I used the simulated narrow output and tapped that in right at the ECU.

Here's a video of it after taking the drive. I was taking it up to about 3000rpm and the wideband would go to open air 22.4 and then come back down to 10.8.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LtDPndOIeaQ&feature=youtu.be (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LtDPndOIeaQ&feature=youtu.be)
I tried having it displayed directly in the thread but couldn't figure out how to do it.

[RETed]

LtDPndOIeaQ



-Ted

[JustJeff]

^ hehe how did you do that??? I know I've posted vids before but couldn't figure out how it's done?

The gauge will eventually move to my A pillar but I've got a situation where the screws holding the convertible top attachment were seized on (locktite at the factory?). I tried impacting them with a hammer on screwdriver and that did nothing. After stripping them I've started drilling them out. Short story long, I need to get my A-pillar off in order to change my single gauge holder to my double and add the wideband there.

I may go play with the idle again and wideband more...though I"m a little frustrated and may step away from it for a day.

One very curious thing the wideband was doing while I was driving was sporadically going to open air. Every so often it would go to 22.4 hold a second or two and then return. My ground may not be the best (under the shifter bracket). Gonna try regrounding in a better spot.

With the idle it seems like I set it, come back and it's not where I set it anymore.

[RETed]

^ hehe how did you do that??? I know I've posted vids before but couldn't figure out how it's done?

You need to grab the YouTube unique "name" for the vid and dump it between the "YOUTUBE" brackets...
You can't just cut&paste the entire URL, i.e. "http://..." - that just rewards you with a nice black square on the screen. :P

Basically, you cut&paste the random letters and numbers after the "watch=" string in the URL.
So the entire URL you pasted was: "http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LtDPndOIeaQ&feature=youtu.be"
All you need is this part: "LtDPndOIeaQ"
If you click <QUOTE> on my reply and stare at it, you'll figure it out. :)


-Ted

[JustJeff]

^I tried doing that with my post but on preview it showed a blank box, so I assumed it was a dead video

Getting back to the car. Can my full range TPS being off by .3 or so V be enough to cause my problems? The narrow range seems to be dead on. This coming week I"m going to talk to an electrical instructor about borrowing an osciloscope to test the TPS.

I'll at least pull the CEL codes today, see if they tell me anything.

[RETed]

Wish I could help you out with those questions... :(

Mines is an S4, and I haven't messed around with an S5 with the E-OMP to get enough info for you.
I vaguely remember the full-range TPS doesn't matter so long as it's linear...?


-Ted

[JustJeff]

Wish I could help you out with those questions... :(

Mines is an S4, and I haven't messed around with an S5 with the E-OMP to get enough info for you.
I vaguely remember the full-range TPS doesn't matter so long as it's linear...?


-Ted

Yeah, it's linear...no drops in the range on either full or narrow. I've heard an osciliscope is a better test and if it's as easy as borrowing the tool and hooking it up I'll test it that way.

[Pete_89T2]

Yeah, it's linear...no drops in the range on either full or narrow. I've heard an osciliscope is a better test and if it's as easy as borrowing the tool and hooking it up I'll test it that way.

As long as it's linear, with no drop outs its should be fine. Referring to '89 FSM, page F2-81 cites a resistance measurement spec for the TPS, full & narrow ranges. To test, disconnect the TPS connector, and measure resistance across the TPS connector terminals it references at closed & wide open throttle conditions. Do this with the engine at operating temp OR you can use a screwdriver to lift the fast idle mechanism off the thermo-wax plunger so the TB is not sitting at a high idle for the closed throttle measurements.

Full range TPS @ wide open throttle should be 3.4 - 5.1 K-ohms; at closed throttle it should be 600~900 ohms. The narrow range is 0.8~1.2K ohms closed, and 4.0~6.0K ohms WOT.

[JustJeff]

^ that is a good point, I've done both resistance and voltage tests on this TPS. I'm told that testing for voltage is more reliable because it tests the TPS under load. But I can cross-reference voltage test with resistance test and they should both be good. If one is good you'd assume the other is. If they aren't the same then something is amiss.

[JustJeff]

I've opened up my FSM to look over the checklist for rough idle. I'll go down the line and test all those.

One question related. The water thermosensor:
I'm curious if it would work to test the water thermosensor for resistance but at the ECU pin rather than the sensor itself?

Reason being, to test per FSM means removing it, draining coolant, etc. Is there any reason why I can't start with a cold engine to test resistance at the ECU and let the engine warm up while testing?

[Pete_89T2]

One question related. The water thermosensor:
I'm curious if it would work to test the water thermosensor for resistance but at the ECU pin rather than the sensor itself?

Reason being, to test per FSM means removing it, draining coolant, etc. Is there any reason why I can't start with a cold engine to test resistance at the ECU and let the engine warm up while testing?

The problem with doing it that way is your DVM/ohmmeter puts some voltage across the terminals you're trying to measure a resistance across. If it's still connected to the ECU with power applied you could potentially harm the ECU. Also, unless you have a good aftermarket temp gauge, how will you know the water temp when you're taking the resistance measurement?

Assuming you do have a temp gauge, one option would be to run the car until warmed up, then jot down the water temp off the gauge and shut it down. Disconnect the battery. Then disconnect the ECU connectors, and do your resistance measurement across the two ECU harness connector pins that connect to the water temp sensor. That will only get you one test sample though, so you still won't know if the temp sensor works across its full range. IIRC, the FSM gives 3~4 temp points to measure resistance on that temp sensor.

[vrracing]

Our RTek 2 shows the temperature reading from the ECU on the Palm. Does the 1.7 not have that capability?

[JL1RX7]

The problem with doing it that way is your DVM/ohmmeter puts some voltage across the terminals you're trying to measure a resistance across. If it's still connected to the ECU with power applied you could potentially harm the ECU. Also, unless you have a good aftermarket temp gauge, how will you know the water temp when you're taking the resistance measurement?

Assuming you do have a temp gauge, one option would be to run the car until warmed up, then jot down the water temp off the gauge and shut it down. Disconnect the battery. Then disconnect the ECU connectors, and do your resistance measurement across the two ECU harness connector pins that connect to the water temp sensor. That will only get you one test sample though, so you still won't know if the temp sensor works across its full range. IIRC, the FSM gives 3~4 temp points to measure resistance on that temp sensor.


If its a RTD or resistance temp device it should have table somewhere about the resistance readings. So say 1k ohm means 72 degrees. Wouldn't really matter if you got multiple readings as long as you get a good resistance reading.

Also resistance will determine your voltage. So if your TPS has a "dead spot" it won't matter if you're reading voltage or resistance. One you when off, the when on.

[JustJeff]

The problem with doing it that way is your DVM/ohmmeter puts some voltage across the terminals you're trying to measure a resistance across. If it's still connected to the ECU with power applied you could potentially harm the ECU. Also, unless you have a good aftermarket temp gauge, how will you know the water temp when you're taking the resistance measurement?

Assuming you do have a temp gauge, one option would be to run the car until warmed up, then jot down the water temp off the gauge and shut it down. Disconnect the battery. Then disconnect the ECU connectors, and do your resistance measurement across the two ECU harness connector pins that connect to the water temp sensor. That will only get you one test sample though, so you still won't know if the temp sensor works across its full range. IIRC, the FSM gives 3~4 temp points to measure resistance on that temp sensor.

Yes I have an aftermarket temp gauge, a Prosport, which isn't name brand, but it' seems to be about dead on. The sender for the temp gauge is tapped into the front of the water pump housing and is taking a reading at the same spot the OEM thermosensor is.

I also have a temp gun I could point at the water pump housing, radiator, hose, etc.

I was thinking the same thing about taking multiple readings, per FSM. I could test as the engine is warming up. Turn off the engine at each temp test and continue to the next....ugh but that means taking the UIM off each time to get to the thermosensor harness.

Our RTek 2 shows the temperature reading from the ECU on the Palm. Does the 1.7 not have that capability?

No logging on Rtek till you get to 2

If its a RTD or resistance temp device it should have table somewhere about the resistance readings. So say 1k ohm means 72 degrees. Wouldn't really matter if you got multiple readings as long as you get a good resistance reading.

Also resistance will determine your voltage. So if your TPS has a "dead spot" it won't matter if you're reading voltage or resistance. One you when off, the when on.

The FSM has 3 temps to take resistances at and what the corresponding resistance should be, but not really a full scale that I know of. I suppose I could take resistance readings when they are at the resistances for a specific temp (per FSM) check the temp of the coolant to see if they line up.

With the TPS, yes we are kinda saying the same thing...I was more round about. But laws of electricity say that if there is a dead spot in voltage test there will be one for resistance also. I meant something is amiss, as in it wasn't tested correctly..not probed correctly and such.

[Pete_89T2]

Yes I have an aftermarket temp gauge, a Prosport, which isn't name brand, but it' seems to be about dead on. The sender for the temp gauge is tapped into the front of the water pump housing and is taking a reading at the same spot the OEM thermosensor is.

I also have a temp gun I could point at the water pump housing, radiator, hose, etc.

I was thinking the same thing about taking multiple readings, per FSM. I could test as the engine is warming up. Turn off the engine at each temp test and continue to the next....ugh but that means taking the UIM off each time to get to the thermosensor harness.

Don't need to take the UIM off... What I was suggesting in my previous post is you take your readings off of the 2 water temp sensor pins on the ECU connector, after disconnecting it from the ECU. BTW, the resistance reading you'll get this way will be a little higher than what the FSM states for the temp sensor, but it shouldn't be by much more than a few ohms. This is because you're also measuring harness cable losses to the sensor.

[JustJeff]

Don't need to take the UIM off... What I was suggesting in my previous post is you take your readings off of the 2 water temp sensor pins on the ECU connector, after disconnecting it from the ECU. BTW, the resistance reading you'll get this way will be a little higher than what the FSM states for the temp sensor, but it shouldn't be by much more than a few ohms. This is because you're also measuring harness cable losses to the sensor.

Forgive my ignorance, but I'm confused on how you're talking about testing resistance. IIRC the harness at the sensor is 2-pin. So to test resistance between those two pins wouldn't I need to find out which pin on the sensor harness corresponds to the ECU pin and then test resistance between that pin and the other pin on the sensor it'self?

I'm confused on what 2 pins on the ECU I'd be testing for resistance. 2E is the only water thermosensor pin on the harness/ECU. I originally was thinking I could put one DMM probe on that pin and one ground to chasis...but that's not the same as checking resistance at the sensor itself...or is it and I've simply overthought things and gotten myself confused.

For what it's worth, I was thinking the same thing about added resistance for the small load the harness will add.

[Pete_89T2]

Forgive my ignorance, but I'm confused on how you're talking about testing resistance. IIRC the harness at the sensor is 2-pin. So to test resistance between those two pins wouldn't I need to find out which pin on the sensor harness corresponds to the ECU pin and then test resistance between that pin and the other pin on the sensor it'self?

I'm confused on what 2 pins on the ECU I'd be testing for resistance. 2E is the only water thermosensor pin on the harness/ECU. I originally was thinking I could put one DMM probe on that pin and one ground to chasis...but that's not the same as checking resistance at the sensor itself...or is it and I've simply overthought things and gotten myself confused.

For what it's worth, I was thinking the same thing about added resistance for the small load the harness will add.

My bad, I should have given you the reference to the schematic diagram on FSM page F2-8. If you follow the water thermo sensor wires back to the ECU connector on the diagram, you'll see you can measure your resistance between pins #2E and 3D. Pin 2E goes to the water thermo sensor and connects to nothing else; 3D is labeled "E2" on the ECU side, which I believe is a common +5VDC supply to a bunch of the sensors, including the water thermo.

[JustJeff]

I stepped away from the car out of frustration. Before I did that I tested the thermosensor at the ecu for both resistance and voltage. I couldn't test the lowest temp what with it being summer but the other temps checked out fine.

That same day I checked TPS and it's still good and at 1v. Took it for a drive and it seemed better idling but afr are still 10.8 at idle. Then between stops it developed worse idle and hot start issues. It did it 3 times and that's when I parked it for a week or so.

IIRC the IAT tested fine at the ECU. I'll look at my notes and also test it again, this time at the sensor.

I guess next up is to test AFM/MAF. One thing to note, I have a Cosmo AFM/MAF for a 13B. I'm assuming that could be a factor in the rich idle?

I have a spare set of coils to swap on in hopes of a magic bullet.

[JustJeff]

.

Don't forget the ISC. I grounded it straight to the negative terminal as I found that the bolt I was using under the main fuses wasn't working as a ground.

Is the ISC the same as the single green harness used to get CEL codes?

When checking timing I never jumpered anything. I simply got it warmed up, idling around 800ish and pionted a timing gun.

[Pete_89T2]

I guess next up is to test AFM/MAF. One thing to note, I have a Cosmo AFM/MAF for a 13B. I'm assuming that could be a factor in the rich idle?

That could very well be the case, at idle and elsewhere in the power curve as the ECU uses the AFM as a primary input to manage FI. Is the Cosmo AFM a different part # than the original AFM that went with your ECU? I know AFMs are not interchangeable between S4 & S5 or T2 & NA's. I have no idea if the Cosmo AFM is interchangeable with anything else. What's the reason for using the Cosmo AFM, larger diameter opening/better flow?

Is the ISC the same as the single green harness used to get CEL codes?

When checking timing I never jumpered anything. I simply got it warmed up, idling around 800ish and pionted a timing gun.

I think that's what he was referring to - the single terminal green connector by the battery that you ground when checking CEL codes, adjusting idle and timing. When grounded, the ECU inhibits the BAC from messing with idle speed, which you'll need to check/adjust idle or base timing.

[JustJeff]

That could very well be the case, at idle and elsewhere in the power curve as the ECU uses the AFM as a primary input to manage FI. Is the Cosmo AFM a different part # than the original AFM that went with your ECU? I know AFMs are not interchangeable between S4 & S5 or T2 & NA's. I have no idea if the Cosmo AFM is interchangeable with anything else. What's the reason for using the Cosmo AFM, larger diameter opening/better flow?



I think that's what he was referring to - the single terminal green connector by the battery that you ground when checking CEL codes, adjusting idle and timing. When grounded, the ECU inhibits the BAC from messing with idle speed, which you'll need to check/adjust idle or base timing.

I ended up with the Cosmo AFM by accident and many years ago. My original turbo swap was done by a shop in Indy, AIM Tuning. While getting parts together for the swap I bought off eBay what I was told was an turbo RX7 AFM. I didn't know any different till many months later when the swap was completed. By then I couldn't go back to the seller so I used it. I've been using it since oh...about 2008 or so. No issues...well till now :P

At one time you could read the part # and that's how I verified it's a Cosmo, but now that sticker has been worn down quite a bit.

Thanks for the heads up on jumpering that, this is the first I've read about it.

[JustJeff]

Here's the update and it couldn't happen in anyone else's build thread than mine.

I test my AFM and find that the IAT sensor within it is dead to the world. I have a spare N350 so I test it as good and pop it on. It's like night and day. Idle sounds much better. After a mile or so drive afr are sitting at 11.7 or so. I'm all happy and take it out for a long drive of blissful thoughts.

And then I burn up my EGI fuse a mile from home. I tried swapping bigger fuses just to get it home and burned up all of those. I ended up towing it home. So now I have to find my short. I've always been suspicious of the electronics in this car...and now I have some confirmation on it.

[vrracing]

Yes, the FSM refers to the connector I'm referring to as the "test connector" in chapter 4. If you search the club site for "initial set connector" you'll find lots of hits but it is referred to as "initial set coupler" as you can see in this thread (http://www.rx7club.com/new-member-rx-7-technical-256/88-n-13b-idle-adjustment-1033944/).

And yes, you ground the ISC whenever you are adjusting your idle or setting your timing. Otherwise the ECU will fight with you.

Good to hear about the AFM. Bummer about the short.

[Pete_89T2]

And then I burn up my EGI fuse a mile from home. I tried swapping bigger fuses just to get it home and burned up all of those. I ended up towing it home. So now I have to find my short. I've always been suspicious of the electronics in this car...and now I have some confirmation on it.

Definitly have a short. Look first for it in the areas you've messed with last. Sounds like you've spent lots of time under the hood and may have recently yanked the UIM a few times. One dumb mistake I made when removing the UIM was forgetting to reconnect the harness plug back into that ASV (air supply valve?). ASV is the PITA to get to one on the backside of the UIM, close to the firewall. When unconnected or not ziptied out of the way, that part of the harness is long enough to dangle down & hit the hot DP - instant 12VDC short on the EGI circuit when it hits the DP and melts the connector. In my case, the short was permanent since the melted plastic "welded" it to my DP, so it was pretty easy to find & figure out. If yours is just dangling, it might just be making intermittent contact as you drive around.

[JustJeff]

Thanks for the heads up on the ISC and about finding my short.

Its definitely an intermittent thing with the short. Last week when I started having hot start issues I noticed that one time the whole engine sputtered in mid drive. The whole engine lost power just for a split second but then kept on driving. That and the engine compartment has felt warmer than it should...specifically around the main fuses. Probably the short making contact then not, making contact then not. Probably heating up the fuses but not burning it.

Things I've recently messed with are the leaving my OEM O2 sensor wire unconnected. I'm using the simulated output on my Innovate and have it spliced in right at the ECU. But IIRC the OEM O2 wiring is a straight feed into the ECU. I don't think the O2 wiring routes through the main fuse.

I've been testing my TPS but that has all been back-probe.

I don't have an ASV on my engine, but I do have some harnesses dangling here and there.

[JustJeff]

I'm tapping into the green 6pin harness by the battery for my efan power. Does that feed into the EGI fuse?

http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z259/justjeff_photos/6pinharnessforefan.jpg (http://s191.photobucket.com/user/justjeff_photos/media/6pinharnessforefan.jpg.html)

[RETed]

I'm tapping into the green 6pin harness by the battery for my efan power. Does that feed into the EGI fuse?

Are you talking about MAIN power for your fan?

Most (effective) electric fans need at least 20A of current.
Almost nothing on the stock electrical system can support that kinda current with the exception of the starter...
I will run dedicated power wires for electrical fans.
Minimum 10-gauge wiring and as short as possible - through a relay.


-Ted

[JustJeff]

Sorry I should have been more clear. Here's the diagram I used for the efan

https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc1/318425_2317456650232_409616596_n.jpg

[JustJeff]

At least when the enigne is warming up the EGI fuse is fine. Popped a new one on, let it idle and warm up to about 170 and nothing to speak of. main fuses box isn't getting warm at all.

My idea had been to rig up a test light to plug into the EGI fuse location. I figure as long as there is a short the light is going to, well...light up. If I get in and start looking around and the light goes out while I'm handling something...well that would tell me the source of my problem.

If it's an intermittent problem, that makes my idea much more difficult. Any ideas how to proceed would be wonderful.

For what it's worth the engine sounds fantastic with the N350 AFM on....that's a plus.

[JustJeff]

Here is what I have found from looking at wiring diagrams about my EGI fuse. I have +12v IGN power for the efan tapped into the B1-08 Check Connector. The green 6pin. That harness sees current via the EGI fuse which goes through the Main Relay.

The only time I've had a problem with the EGI fuse is when I had the efan manually switched on for an extended period of time.

Forgive my ignorance with electrical...I know just enough to be dangerous...
Ted you mentioned using the starter for power. Are you thinking having fused/breakered power coming from the starter rather than the battery. Or the IGN?

One thing to note from that diagram. I have not yet tapped into 1O pin for idle.

[JustJeff]

Well, now I've done it. I read about using a resetting fuse and a compass to track down where my short is. Only problem was the resetting fuse was resetting too quickly and melted the insulation.

The plus side is that I found where my short was. It was like I suspected. The +12v for the efan which was plugged into the test connector by the battery. That wire got pinched under the battery tray and rubbed till it had exposed wire. The melted wiring stopped exactly at that point moving towards the relay for the efan.

Though it did not stop traveling down the harness side. It followed the wiring diagram perfectly, getting all melty along the way. It went from the 6pin (B1-08) through to the main relay (B1-02) and on to the EGI fuse harness.

I started cutting into the harness to trace it back. It looks like the damage is isolated to just main relay harness, check connector wiring and harness and EGI fuse wiring and harness. I'll do more digging tomorrow morning. My biggest concern is that from B1-08 harness following the B/W wire back it then split. I haven't traced it back physically but I have looked at the diagrams. It's going to both the Main Relay (B1-02) as well as to (X-11) on the passenger side kick panel.

At least from the digging I've done so far and looking at the diagrams..it's looking like I"m better off running new wiring than trying to replace the entire harness. It looks like that harness covers a lot of ground. Going from firewall on driver side (I'm assuming ending at the driver kickpanel?), across the front of the bumper and ending by the passenger side headlight.

Lesson learned, now to fix my mistake...

[JustJeff]

So I dug around in my wiring and the damage isn't too bad. Gonna replace the Main Relay, gonna source new harness for the main relay and a new Check Connector. I don't really need the Check Connector as it's only used for my efan, but while replacing things I might as well make that look pretty.

[JustJeff]

Finally got around to fixing the wiring. It's starts up and idles quite nicely. Next things on the plate, recharging the A/C, making a cold air intake box, deciding if I'm doing anything else with the body...and paint.

[vrracing]

Gratz. It must be a relief to clear that hurdle

[JL1RX7]

I know it has to feel good to clear that hurdle! Congrats man.

[JustJeff]

Gratz. It must be a relief to clear that hurdle

I know it has to feel good to clear that hurdle! Congrats man.

Yeah, not knowing how badly off the burned up wiring was stressful. But I got to learn more about reading wiring diagrams by getting my hands dirty, I fixed my problem and the engine is purring quite nicely.

One other thing I forgot on my to-do list. Converting a P/S rack over to manual.

[JustJeff]

le sigh

The engine is working great until my efan runs with the manual switch turned on for an extended period of time. I was out driving today in stop and go traffic. There is still something not quite right with my thermoswitch in that IIRC the Starion switch is a 195 on switch. It is not triggering my efan until 210ish. Either that or my Prosport temp gauge is not accurate.

So I got nervous that I was at a stop light and my temps were rising above 200 and I flipped my manual switch on. Things were fine for a couple of minutes and then the engine starts sputtering, it's wanting to stall out and I barely get it into a parking lot where it does stall out.

I don't find any burned or blown fuses, all the wiring looks fine. After it sat for 5-10 min I start the engine up and everything is fine. I move it to a better parking space. The thermoswitch has the fan blowing on its own.

I never had this kind of problem before melting wiring and replacing the main relay. I'm not sure where to check next. The alternator?

[vrracing]

According to your drawing your switch is a 207/194. My understanding of how the switches worked is that the circuit closes (fan comes on) at the higher temperature (207) and stays on until it reaches the lower temperature (194). Then the engine warms up to 207 and the process starts over.

If it came on at the lower temp (194), the fan would come on, temps would drop to 193 and the fan would shut off. Then 3 seconds later the temp would hit 194 again and the fan would come on. Yo-Yo fan.

[vrracing]

Does the 1.7 show voltage? IIRC the 2.1 does.

[JustJeff]

According to your drawing your switch is a 207/194. My understanding of how the switches worked is that the circuit closes (fan comes on) at the higher temperature (207) and stays on until it reaches the lower temperature (194). Then the engine warms up to 207 and the process starts over.

If it came on at the lower temp (194), the fan would come on, temps would drop to 193 and the fan would shut off. Then 3 seconds later the temp would hit 194 again and the fan would come on. Yo-Yo fan.

Yeah, I saw that on the diagram and always thought those on and off numbers were the OEM switch. I didn't draw up the diagram, I copied it from a thread on the other forum years ago. It's highly likely that my memory stinks...or that my ADD has played it's tricks on me and that info you just picked out is perfectly accurate and I've been chasing a ghost in terms of the on switch.

The good news is the car is home, I had no issues with it. I'm going to test a few things tomorrow morning. See if my alternator might be failing and simply not up to the task of that hog of a Taurus fan.

[Pete_89T2]

According to your drawing your switch is a 207/194. My understanding of how the switches worked is that the circuit closes (fan comes on) at the higher temperature (207) and stays on until it reaches the lower temperature (194). Then the engine warms up to 207 and the process starts over.

Actually the 2 numbers in the switch spec is just a way for the manufacturer to cover his ass and define a repeatable tolerance. In this case, the mfg. guarantees that the switch will close/turn on whenever the temp is greater than anything in the range of 194 to 207*F. IOW, they guarantee it will be open/off at temps < 194, and closed/on at temps > 207. Another way of doing this is to specify a single temp switch point (e.g., closes @ T > 197), and include a tolerance factor, (e.g., +/- 10%).

Does the 1.7 show voltage? IIRC the 2.1 does.

Logging voltages is a good suggestion... Unfortunately the Rtek 1.7 lacks the serial port to allow tuning/logging with a palm device that the 2.x has.

The good news is the car is home, I had no issues with it. I'm going to test a few things tomorrow morning. See if my alternator might be failing and simply not up to the task of that hog of a Taurus fan.

That's what I'm thinking, if the alternator can't sustain a steady voltage of at least 13V while running all electrical loads and charging the battery, things will get wonky. Which is why I agree monitoring voltages on the next drive is a good idea. That Taurus fan has a colossal current draw, and can quickly discharge a battery. When you were running the fan on the manual switch for a prolonged time, I think the battery discharged deep enough so that the alternator couldn't support all the electrical loads AND charge the battery, so as soon as system volts dropped below 12 or so, fuel delivery and/or ECU control started failing.

[RETed]

Thermoswitches are notoriously unreliable.
The aftermarket stuff is pure junk.
A lot of the aftermarket electric fans that use those electric controllers with the push-in temperature probe (into the radiator fins) fail consistently.
The stock units are a lot better, but I still won't trust it.
I was running off the stock FC thermoswitch for years, but even that failed after a few years of use.
I was running the Spal PWM controller until I accidently short circuited the thing.
Now I run my fan off the Haltech E8.


-Ted

[JustJeff]

Here is what I have found. My alternator seems to be acting the way a modded alternator should. It needs RPMs to keep 14v. Even with the fan not on, at 300-500ish RPMs it's not cracking 12.something volts. Without the fan running I bump the RPM up to 1k and my voltage climbs to around 14v. If I have the fan on and RPM at idle (300-500) I can watch my battery voltage drop. In a couple of minutes it went from 12v down to 11.8ish. With the fan on I need RPMs at 1-1.5k in order to see 14v on my DMM.

What is curious is that it did not behave this way before I needed to repair the wiring, but I guess that's just how things go.

I'll need to start planning for something different with my fan and charging system. With a TMIC I'm very limited on alternators. Before adding the efan I had an FD alt and that barely fit under my TMIC. With it squeezed under there the TMIC was making too much contact with the hood. I'd love to do a Taurus alt, but I'm quite sure that's not going to fit. I may have to start planning for a FMIC.

[Pete_89T2]

I forgot you had a modified alternator... So at high idle >1K or so, you're seeing at least 13.5 V and the battery charges even with all the electrical loads on? If that's the case, you need to raise the RPMs of the alternator at idle -- an overdrive alternator pulley would do this. Don't know where you can get one of those though. Underdrive pulleys can be had, but I don't know anyone that makes an overdrive pulley for an FC alternator.

[vrracing]

An FMIC seems like a drastic solution. Hmmm, I've got a zit. I NEED A FACELIFT!!! :tongue1:

We are running a stock JDM alt with the GM e-fan Cake recommended in his e-fan how-to controlled with a push-thru thermoswitch pulling air thru a Godspeed rad. It was 104 in the shade last week and I drove the car in traffic to the office with the a/c on and the Pioneer 7" LCD head unit on and had no issues with heat or voltage.

I would start by seeing if I could get my hands on a stock alt or at a minimum having yours tested. If something changed after your short, that would be the logical place to look.

Alternatively, Id swap to the GM fan. Maybe it doesnt have the watt-consuming machismo impact of the Ford fan, but yall don't spend much time above 104 there so it'll probably keep temps managed.

[RETed]

I forgot you had a modified alternator... So at high idle >1K or so, you're seeing at least 13.5 V and the battery charges even with all the electrical loads on? If that's the case, you need to raise the RPMs of the alternator at idle -- an overdrive alternator pulley would do this. Don't know where you can get one of those though. Underdrive pulleys can be had, but I don't know anyone that makes an overdrive pulley for an FC alternator.

Yep, no way any underdrive pulley is going to work on a daily driver FC.

Even with my FD alternator on my FC, I run a stock size pulley - both on the main and alternator sides.
It barely charges at night, at idle, with the headlights on...
(I have no A/C.)


-Ted

[JustJeff]

An FMIC seems like a drastic solution. Hmmm, I've got a zit. I NEED A FACELIFT!!! :tongue1:

We are running a stock JDM alt with the GM e-fan Cake recommended in his e-fan how-to controlled with a push-thru thermoswitch pulling air thru a Godspeed rad. It was 104 in the shade last week and I drove the car in traffic to the office with the a/c on and the Pioneer 7" LCD head unit on and had no issues with heat or voltage.

I would start by seeing if I could get my hands on a stock alt or at a minimum having yours tested. If something changed after your short, that would be the logical place to look.

Alternatively, Id swap to the GM fan. Maybe it doesnt have the watt-consuming machismo impact of the Ford fan, but yall don't spend much time above 104 there so it'll probably keep temps managed.

I'm going to have mine tested. After testing the alternator with fan on and off the car sat till today. I go out today after work to drive it some to find a battery too low to engage the starter. Now I did have the car idling and the fan running some, but I wouldn't think that is enough to drain the battery this low. I'm waiting till after dinner and I'll go out and see what kind of voltage the battery has.

The last time my engine did this little burp with the engine wanting to stall out I came out a couple days later and the battery was dead. I charged it and checked for parasitic drain and found none. My DMM showed between 30-40mV. Which makes it sound more like I have an alternator problem.


Yep, no way any underdrive pulley is going to work on a daily driver FC.

Even with my FD alternator on my FC, I run a stock size pulley - both on the main and alternator sides.
It barely charges at night, at idle, with the headlights on...
(I have no A/C.)


-Ted

I'm going to look into an overdrive pulley, but to be honest I don't even know where to start looking. I'll start by googling alternator pulleys and see what I can turn up.

[JustJeff]

Update that is about as bad as it can get....

Was still in break in mileage on the engine and I have apparently lost all compression on the front rotor. I was driving as you should during break in and at 30 mph and maybe 3500 rpm the engine went to crap. All the sudden was barely idling, running so rough that the entire car was shaking.

I wasn't driving the car much at all while I figured out electrical problems and why my engine was idling very rich (10.7 afr at idle). When I pulled the leading plug for compression test the front one (same one with zero compression) was covered in gas and sandy grit. I thought I had found the cause of my poor running engine and probably my low afr...that my front leading coil wasn't igniting or was igniting weakly.

Did the compression test and the needle doesn't even budge. I pulled the tester to feel the puff of air while cranking and they are virtually non-existent. My hopes are that it's stuck seals and springs from running rich...but I realize that's a long shot.

This may spell the end of my rotary days. At the very least it will be some time before I re-rebuild it. I'm trying to finish up a 2nd degree and absolutely do not have money to spare right now.

I don't expect to get compression back on the rotor, but I'll try seafoam steaming. If I can't get it back to good compression I will at least teardown the engine and see what and why. If I find internal damage then I"m most likely done. It's getting harder and harder to find quality parts.

Sad day, sad day indeed!!