Plain Jane OEM nothing to see here rebuild [Archive]

JustJeff

10-09-2010, 02:13 AM

I'm bored and new to RCC so I figured I'd post up pics of where my car is...let everyone get to know me, what I'm doing...etc etc.

History on the car, it's a JDM 13B swapped 89 vert. I daily drove the engine with no rebuild for something like 3 years. I had put the typical mods on the car

13B turbo and tranny
-engine supplied by Atkins/swap done by AIM Tuning
N370 ECU and modified N/A harness
S4 differential
RB REV TII full exhaust
FCD
Cosmo MAF
FD fuel pump
550/800 primary/secondary injectors
FD alt
airpump removed
Tokico blues and Tein springs
and a pretty nice upper-end but lowkey stereo system

Mine is the one in the background
http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs683.snc4/62337_1530824744926_1063965498_31416378_7380873_n. jpg

I was running with no aftermarket control (boost, fuel, etc), but was running rich and rarely romped on the gas. I had been waiting for Rtek S5 TII chips to come out of beta. BUT detonated the engine and blew the front housing.

JustJeff

10-09-2010, 02:35 AM

This is my first rebuild of any kind, so at least so far I'm keeping the rebuild OEM. Not doing any porting or other modifications. Though if I found some used FD stationary gears I'd do that and modify the e-shaft oil jets. I need to replace my stat gear bearings, so if I found some used FD gears in good shape I'd consider that modification

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs153.snc4/36985_1423415699767_1063965498_31167052_463847_n.j pg

Apex seal corner broke on front rotor
http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs138.snc4/37247_1426193969222_1063965498_31174159_18507_n.jp g

It spun around a couple of times, took out the housing and rotor
http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/hs078.ash2/37247_1426194329231_1063965498_31174168_7909889_n. jpg

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/hs078.ash2/37247_1426194249229_1063965498_31174166_5277302_n. jpg

Had a hard time getting pics of apex groove that got damaged
http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/hs017.ash2/34197_1436537587806_1063965498_31198081_2380890_n. jpg

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs080.snc4/35385_1436536067768_1063965498_31198066_5515246_n. jpg

JustJeff

10-09-2010, 02:39 AM

IIRC the bad apex seal groove was still within FSM specs for overall clearance. BUT it varied by like .002 or .003 from the good side to the damaged side. I was afraid that much difference from one end to the other would cause problems so the rotor was replaced.

JustJeff

10-09-2010, 02:41 AM

Cool pic I got while snapping pics of the teardown and cleanup

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs146.snc4/36680_1426195249254_1063965498_31174181_6681630_n. jpg

JustJeff

10-09-2010, 02:45 AM

Front Stat gear
http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/hs061.ash2/36404_1431911992169_1063965498_31186496_7803560_n. jpg

Rear Stat gear
http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/hs062.ash2/36471_1429876061272_1063965498_31182151_333458_n.j pg

RETed

10-09-2010, 05:06 AM

Though if I found some used FD stationary gears I'd do that and modify the e-shaft oil jets. I need to replace my stat gear bearings, so if I found some used FD gears in good shape I'd consider that modification

Something to think about...

The front FD3S stat gear is machined differently than the FC3S stat gears.
You might need to change out all the "front guts" in the oil cover to FD3S parts - thrust bearing plates x2, Torrington bearings x2, spacer.

-Ted

JustJeff

10-09-2010, 10:20 AM

^thanks for the heads up Ted, from what I had read so far I thought I could use just the gears and didn't need any other modifications other than extending the e-shaft jet grooves.

This is why I created the thread, in case I miss something. I'll be sure to reread the info I had found before doing anything. If there is any doubt I'll keep the stat gears I already have. I'm not building a high rev, high output engine so I really don't need the hardened stat gears.

One question, are the Cosmo 13B-RE gears a direct swap? I'm still researching that one, but had been told they are hardened but a direct swap...but they also do NOT have the better bearings that the FD and RX-8 have.

Just to complete the conversation for anyone who is searching for related info. I had read conflicting info about using RX8 gears. Some said they are a direct swap and other said you need to shave off like .001 on 13B e-shaft to accommodate the gear.

JustJeff

10-09-2010, 10:42 AM

Another updated

Before removing the engine I had random smoking exhaust, but couldn't find the source. I first noticed while looking for a hose leaking coolant. I had replaced my water pump and had a coolant leak that seemed to only leak while the car was running and hot. I drove the car around the block to heat it up and while still running I jacked up the front. Found it was a clamp I hadn't tightened down enough so it only leaked when it got hot.

Point of that story is that while the car was running and jacked up it created a smoke screen. In general it had a smokey exhaust that I only noticed when looking at the tailpipes. But from that day on it would occasionally smoke screen while driving.

Turns out my turbo had thrust play in it. I measured by pressing the shaft as far away as possible with a dial indicator on the shaft. Then pushed it all the way the opposite way so I'd get a reading of the full play. It was like .001-.002 IIRC

That has been replaced with a S5 that has no play.

JustJeff

10-09-2010, 10:54 AM

I've gotten bored while waiting for the rebuild to come together so I painted. I wanted something I hadn't seen done before so I went with black and copper

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs240.snc4/39360_1461730137604_1063965498_31260017_7232413_n. jpg
The rear housing in the pic is the bad housing that will be replaced. I pushed everything together to get a better idea how it would look and if I liked it

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/hs105.ash2/38597_1461729817596_1063965498_31260013_3809455_n. jpg

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs220.snc4/39360_1461730057602_1063965498_31260015_2079867_n. jpg

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/hs109.ash2/38809_1461730297608_1063965498_31260019_7092645_n. jpg

I'm still not sure if I'll keep that paint or not. It might be too different. I also may have the intakes powder coated rather than rattle can painted.

I may repaint the irons and front cover silver or aluminum. And have also considered going full fanboy and making the intakes white with a rising sun painted over them. Who knows might even airbrush some artsy BS on there.

RETed

10-09-2010, 12:16 PM

One question, are the Cosmo 13B-RE gears a direct swap? I'm still researching that one, but had been told they are hardened but a direct swap...but they also do NOT have the better bearings that the FD and RX-8 have.
I can't confirm on the Cosmo stat gears... :(

The Cosmo (20B only?) runs a 3-window bearing on the stat gears.
The 3 windows are slotted.
Mazda Comp (now Mazdaspeed) used to sell them as "Mazda competition bearings" back in the day.
The FD3S 13B-REW runs a 9-window bearing - 9 drilled holes throughout the stat gear bearing.
It's arguable whether which is better, but the 13B-REW ones are the newest design and therefore arguably better.

Just to complete the conversation for anyone who is searching for related info. I had read conflicting info about using RX8 gears. Some said they are a direct swap and other said you need to shave off like .001 on 13B e-shaft to accommodate the gear.
Sorry, I can't confirm either.
I don't mess with RX-8 stuff.
For me, the RX-8 wasn't turbo'd so why try and use "NA" parts in our turbo'd application?

-Ted

JustJeff

10-09-2010, 02:46 PM

^Thanks again for the feedback

I saw pics of the 13B RE gears and they look the exact same as 13B, no difference in the bearing either. From what I was told the only difference is the gear is hardened.

I doubt I'll change the stat gears or anything else internal. OEM was serving me well enough. I was happy with external mods and 12psi boost. I don't want to do anything on the engine thats irreversible and will affect driveability and reliability. I want the engine to be able to daily drive if needed, pass e'check if needed.

FerociousP

10-10-2010, 04:36 PM

RotorDad

10-10-2010, 11:32 PM

Pulled from Mazdatrix who actually recommend the Renesis stationary gears. They are already hardend.
"If using the RX8 rear gear in an earlier 13b engine, you must add sealant where the rear gear o-ring WOULD be. There is no groove to hold the o-ring because the Renesis engine mounts the o-ring in the side housing rather than on the gear. We recommend using Hylomar, but a THIN layer of silicone sealant will also suffice."
The 3 window bearing IMO opinion is just as good as the REW multi window.

JustJeff

10-11-2010, 03:37 PM

I have done the exact same thing with a vert... jspecc TII, na harness, 550,750s... and I got the Rtek 2.0 just recently... for a basically stock setup it works great by helping fine tune things, monitor stock sensors, and gets rid of the need for a FCD. if getting a bigger turbo I would get a little nervous about not having a more powerful standalone though as you can't boost over 14 and I'd like the ability to use faster reacting sensors and remove the MAF.

It does do some pretty cool things though... fyi I have no emissions, hence the non CEL codes. but it datalogs fairly decent and accepts my wideband signal.

I'm going with a 1.7, once the car is back on the road and I'm not paying the bills for the rebuild I'll start thinking about sending my old turbo to BNR and other upgrades. Though most of my modifications I want are reliability and longevity mods. I'm eyeballing Sohn's MOP mod ATM
http://rotaryaviation.com/oil_injector_pump_adaptors.htm
(http://rotaryaviation.com/oil_injector_pump_adaptors.htm)

I'm curious which pins you swapped on the N/A harness, not the VDI pin at the ECU, but IIRC there are two pins that need swapped further up the harness on the two plugs that attach to the dash harness. I've got two spare N/A harnesses and compared them to my modified harness...I can't find any wires different.

JustJeff

10-11-2010, 03:39 PM

FerociousP

10-11-2010, 04:51 PM

I'm going with a 1.7, once the car is back on the road and I'm not paying the bills for the rebuild I'll start thinking about sending my old turbo to BNR and other upgrades. Though most of my modifications I want are reliability and longevity mods. I'm eyeballing Sohn's MOP mod ATM
http://rotaryaviation.com/oil_injector_pump_adaptors.htm
(http://rotaryaviation.com/oil_injector_pump_adaptors.htm)

I'm curious which pins you swapped on the N/A harness, not the VDI pin at the ECU, but IIRC there are two pins that need swapped further up the harness on the two plugs that attach to the dash harness. I've got two spare N/A harnesses and compared them to my modified harness...I can't find any wires different.

I went with the 1.7 at first, and it was fine, but I wanted a little more control and its only $350 to upgrade. I've been able to add fuel and (subtract fuel for idle) and it idles and runs great. turnaround is very fast. My next upgrade is a BNR stg1 (mainly for the ported wastegate). a pull from low rpm in 4th creeps to 14psi, which is where the map on the stock ecu stops. In the stage2, I actually have the injectors go almost full open if it sees 14psi.

I didn't change any pins anywhere... though I'm not running a knock sensor or boost control solenoid. All the others match up to their respective turbo pins.

JustJeff

10-11-2010, 10:06 PM

I went with the 1.7 at first, and it was fine, but I wanted a little more control and its only $350 to upgrade. I've been able to add fuel and (subtract fuel for idle) and it idles and runs great. turnaround is very fast. My next upgrade is a BNR stg1 (mainly for the ported wastegate). a pull from low rpm in 4th creeps to 14psi, which is where the map on the stock ecu stops. In the stage2, I actually have the injectors go almost full open if it sees 14psi.

I didn't change any pins anywhere... though I'm not running a knock sensor or boost control solenoid. All the others match up to their respective turbo pins.

I'm not running a knock sensor either and will be loosing the boost solenoid.

RotorDad

10-11-2010, 10:08 PM

Thanks Dad, I remember having read that but those thoughts fell on the backburner. Thanks for bringing that up. I believe it was on Nopistons I read people using RX8 gears.

I might actually use them on my next build. It was still fresh in my mind. LOL

NoDOHC

10-11-2010, 11:55 PM

You call yourself the Newbie, but you have done more than most people on this forum.

Congrats to you.

That is a nice ride / project.

JustJeff

10-12-2010, 01:14 AM

I might actually use them on my next build. It was still fresh in my mind. LOL

I'm curious, did you come across the same info about needing to shave the 13B eccentric shaft to use with RX8 gears?

You call yourself the Newbie, but you have done more than most people on this forum.

Congrats to you.

That is a nice ride / project.

Thanks man, much appreciated. I've been around rotaries for some time. My father bought an FB new when I was barely young enough to remember. From the early 80s on my father and I have owned 5 RX's between us. Four of those 5 have been verts.

This is my first rebuild so I'm trying to be as thorough as possible on the whole thing. I have a disturbing photo gallery of the engine removal and teardown. I bagged and tagged every nut and bolt. I measured step wear, warping and such on the irons.

What I need to decide is what direction the body of the car is going to go. I need to decide whether to buy my father's black vert and put my drivetrain in it or keep my red vert. I'm a softy for black verts and it's kind of a toss up over which work is most worth the effort. Swapping rear subframes so my LSD will be on the black vert...as well as my stereo system, alarm, etc...or keep the red vert and eventaully painting it black.

JustJeff

10-25-2010, 04:20 PM

Quick update...the rebuild is moving forward. I want to get as much done as possible before cold weather hits.

I bought a replacement housing, it's on it's way to me. Low mile JDM housing that from the pics look to be in as good shape as my good housing.

Now I have to decide on RA seals or Atkins. I've got an overview of all the available seals that covers all the major suppliers. I'd love to hear feedback from people using RA, Atkins or even Goopy. Even better advice would be from people who used the seals then toredown the engine.

My concern with RA is about chatter marks and the reputation I've heard from them wearing the housings. Has anyone used them and torn down the engine they were in?

JustJeff

11-07-2010, 08:39 PM

Another update

The housing I bought was junk so I'm working out a refund. The seller is working with me, but I'm more than a little pissed that his description was not close to reality. What really worries me is that this thing would be put up for sale and that someone might use it.

I might have a deal in the works for a housing from Japan. The pics look like it's in as good of shape as my good housing.

Now that I have more down time waiting I"m thinking of repainting my irons. While the black duracell theme was kinda fun at first I can see it growing on me...in a bad way. I'm thinking of simply doing an aluminum, I brought home some VHT "Titanium Blue Silver" but I may do simple aluminum. At least with aluminum when it gets chipped and starts flaking it won't show up as much.

One question about repainting. Can I simply cover the clear coat with self-etching primer or should I rough up the paint surface before? For repainting I'm going to do like the first color. I'll prime, paint and clear coat.

I'll get some pics of the good internal engine parts soon.

JustJeff

11-08-2010, 01:07 PM

Got my answer about self-etching primer from a friend who does body work. etching primer is designed to bond to bare metal, not paint. Guess I have to repaint the hard way...

JustJeff

11-09-2010, 12:52 AM

Here is my good housing
http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs973.snc4/76681_1584938457735_1063965498_31517747_248950_n.j pg

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/hs485.ash2/75827_1584938577738_1063965498_31517748_2319142_n. jpg

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs897.snc4/73020_1584938697741_1063965498_31517749_4374232_n. jpg

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs1158.snc4/150041_1584938777743_1063965498_31517750_811549_n. jpg

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/hs454.ash2/72767_1584938897746_1063965498_31517751_5283132_n. jpg

JustJeff

11-09-2010, 12:54 AM

Question about my flywheel...will resurfacing my flywheel remove that? How much of an issue is that going to be?
http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs1129.snc4/149188_1584938977748_1063965498_31517752_8252693_n .jpg

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs1125.snc4/148749_1584939097751_1063965498_31517753_6322551_n .jpg

JustJeff

11-09-2010, 01:00 AM

I bought this rotor and after cleaning it found this...at first I didn't notice it. Can I use this rotor? What about flipping it around for the other housing so that the momentum of the engine will always be pushing the seal away from that damaged area?

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/hs576.ash2/149803_1584939337757_1063965498_31517755_6691231_n .jpg

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs929.snc4/74281_1584939177753_1063965498_31517754_577153_n.j pg

This is my other rotor, the one I damaged when I detonated...it almost seems to be in better shape than the one I bought
http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/hs570.ash2/149201_1584939417759_1063965498_31517756_4587655_n .jpg

JustJeff

11-11-2010, 10:52 PM

[QUOTE=JustJeff;131896]Question about my flywheel...will resurfacing my flywheel remove that? How much of an issue is that going to be?
http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs1129.snc4/149188_1584938977748_1063965498_31517752_8252693_n .jpg

Talked to a machine shop, it's not ideal obviously but the crack is only on the surface. I'll probably be using it...after resurfacing, unless I find a good deal on a flywheel.

JustJeff

11-21-2010, 07:31 PM

So I decided to repaint my front cover. Was originally going to scuff up the paint some, reprime, paint, clearcoat. Got annoyed with all the nooks and crannies I was having a hard time reaching. So I bought some airplane paint remover and have spent the last week trying to get the gook out of nooks and crannies. Never again will I do that!!

I've officially given up and will be taking it to get it sandblasted. Wish I had simply stuck to scuffing up the paint. I doubt missing the nooks and crannies would have mattered. But the paint partially pulled off the metal will cause problems.

JustJeff

11-29-2010, 11:47 PM

Update!!

Housing arrived today from Jland. Thank you to 87GTR from 7club for hooking me up. His price was VERY reasonable. I got a S5 housing that is simply in gorgeous shape. I also bought an InfiniIV strut bar from him. And as a bonus perk, he tossed in some snacks from Japan!!

I'll get it cleaned up and post some pics in the next couple days.

GoopyPerformance

12-06-2010, 09:09 PM

I bought this rotor and after cleaning it found this...at first I didn't notice it. Can I use this rotor? What about flipping it around for the other housing so that the momentum of the engine will always be pushing the seal away from that damaged area?

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/hs576.ash2/149803_1584939337757_1063965498_31517755_6691231_n .jpg

Those rotors are still very much usable. If you guage the Clearance between the apex seal slot and apex and would like it tighter we offer a oversize apex seals. Its still categorized as a 2MM seal but .003 thicker to make up for high millage slop or damaged rotor edges.
http://www.goopyperformance.com/
http://wljphotography.com/index.html

JustJeff

12-07-2010, 04:22 PM

Those rotors are still very much usable. If you guage the Clearance between the apex seal slot and apex and would like it tighter we offer a oversize apex seals. Its still categorized as a 2MM seal but .003 thicker to make up for high millage slop or damaged rotor edges.
http://www.goopyperformance.com/
http://wljphotography.com/index.html

I sent it back to the seller, he inspected it and is sending me another. It's a moot point now, but I appreciate the advice.

Replacement rotor should be here in a few days. Replacement housing is already here. I've got it cleaned up and will slap some paint on it tonight or tomorrow. Matter of fact I'll post some pics of the housing.

JustJeff

12-07-2010, 04:49 PM

I couldn't be happier with this housing. Bought it from 87GTR over on 7club. Considering the shape of the chrome he should have asked for more. But kudos for him for not raping the community for good used JDM parts. He is listing quite a few parts and always seems to keep his prices reasonable.

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/hs354.ash2/63445_1620946237907_1063965498_31581546_8104998_n. jpg

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/hs379.ash2/65768_1620946357910_1063965498_31581547_2182263_n. jpg

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs1335.snc4/162772_1620946477913_1063965498_31581548_2830533_n .jpg

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/hs351.ash2/63185_1626151008023_1063965498_31594144_2051405_n. jpg

JustJeff

12-07-2010, 04:57 PM

Housing does have a couple dings on it. I'm assuming I can file or grind those down without needing to get it machined?

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs696.snc4/63641_1620945837897_1063965498_31581543_8344854_n. jpg

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs1220.snc4/155203_1620945997901_1063965498_31581544_7212513_n .jpg

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs1163.snc4/150588_1620946077903_1063965498_31581545_7213348_n .jpg

RETed

12-07-2010, 08:21 PM

JustJeff

12-09-2010, 05:12 PM

Yep, got a lot of those when buying used housings from previous owners dropping them. :(
Just make sure the bottom (to oil pan) and sides (to irons) surfaces are flat enough so sealant can do it's job.

-Ted

Got the dremel out last night and cleaned up the dents and dings. I also cleaned the housing to iron contact surfaces and the housing to oil pan surfaces. Used some 400 grit paper with a sanding block so all the surfaces would be sanded evenly. Did the same thing with my front cover surfaces.

I also decided to polish the logos on both housings. I've never polished before and want some practice. I'm planning to polish the lips on 2 sets of vert rims. Hell if it goes well enough I may even polish my intakes??? I doubt I"ll want to put the work into all that...but you never know.

NoDOHC

12-09-2010, 06:58 PM

Polishing is fun, but time consuming.

Looking good so far!

RETed

12-10-2010, 05:03 AM

JustJeff

12-15-2010, 05:16 PM

I tried polishing my UIM myself...
Oh boy, BIG mistake!
It was a royal PITA!

If you can find as shop that does this professionally, I'd recommending just paying them to do it.
Your time is worth more than wasting your time polishing these things. :P

-Ted

Yeah I've read its quite horrible and time consuming. I doubt I'll be doing it for many reasons. The other is that it's kinda like making a clean spot in the mud.... everything else will look like shit in comparison. IMHO I think polish should wait till it's the last addition to a fully dressed engine bay.

JustJeff

12-15-2010, 05:26 PM

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs715.snc4/63531_1636705351875_1063965498_31612573_7445785_n. jpg

Because it's too damn cold out to do anything in the garage!!! I'm doing all the work in a 3 car garage but don't own a heater that will heat that much space. Everytime I have enough time to myself to do more work, it's a damn winter storm warning.

I did receive a replacement rotor and it is dirty as fuck. I believe the seller coats them in oil but doesn't do ANY carbon build up cleaning. I know it's a B weight but don't know if it's S5 turbo or FD. I asked him for FD or S5 turbo, but he was not kind enough to inform me which he sent. Once it's clean I'll weigh it and compare to my C weight..make sure the two will balance.

I've also pieced together an ACT HD street disc kit. Bought a disc that had been mounted but not used. From a different seller I bought a new HD 4 puck kit minus the puck disc. Disc arrived today. PP and bearings won't be for some time.

Matter of fact I offered to try and sell the 4 puck sprung disc for the seller....if anyone is interested.

NoDOHC

12-15-2010, 11:18 PM

Did you ever try using a little propane radiant heater? I have a 14,000 BTU heater that does a very good job of keeping the engine bay warm, while only costing about $5.00 per evening of use (about $1.00/hour).

I do understand your pain.

I have no excuse, as I have an insulated and heated garage, but it costs too much to heat the whole thing, so I use the little propane heater (it costs about $8/hour to heat the shop).

JustJeff

12-16-2010, 12:15 AM

^ Normally it doesn't get cold enough in Southern Indiana to need a heater. The garage is attached to the house so it stays relatively warm. There will be one or two winter blasts in a season and that's about it. Unfortunately one of those blasts is now.

JustJeff

01-04-2011, 11:34 AM

It's gonna be 40 today!!! Think I might lay out...get a tan....:P Seriously though. Family has all left after the Holidays and I have the day off. Gonna see how much I can get done before the Buckeye's game.

Here's the rotor. I got it relatively cleaned.
http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs887.snc4/72028_1652622709799_1063965498_31647425_1714778_n. jpg

Bearing is in great shape
http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs1359.snc4/163185_1652623149810_1063965498_31647427_6507361_n .jpg

All the apex grooves look good
http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs933.snc4/74634_1652623269813_1063965498_31647428_3569819_n. jpg

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/hs018.snc6/166828_1652623349815_1063965498_31647429_6690498_n .jpg

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs1356.snc4/162880_1652623509819_1063965498_31647430_6471322_n .jpg

JustJeff

01-04-2011, 11:39 AM

Here's the polished logos. I got them down to 2000 grit and that's good enough for me. Some of the letter edges are rough but I'm not worried about it. I was really just killing time. Once the engine is in nobody is going to see the logo and after a few miles the polish is going to tarnish.

Gonna touch up the already painted housing, paint the newest housing and paint the front cover.

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs413.snc4/47617_1652623869828_1063965498_31647432_7576935_n. jpg

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs1391.snc4/164395_1652623989831_1063965498_31647433_6206053_n .jpg

mazdadude7

01-05-2011, 06:05 PM

looking good glad your build is going better than mine.

JustJeff

01-05-2011, 07:00 PM

mazdadude7

01-05-2011, 10:56 PM

Do tell?? What's not going well on yours?

My rebuild hasn't gone all that well. Well the timing for needing it couldn't have come at a worse time. I lost my job in 2009..same time I needed a rebuild. I'm doing better than I was a year ago...but not as well as I was two years ago before all this "economy stuff" happened.

I've had a few setbacks. Needed to replace my turbo..but now I have a core if I want to do a BNR. I needed a refund on a horrible housing some asshat tried to pass off as useable. I needed a replacement on a rotor that a seller didn't know was detonated. He hooked me up nicely.

The rest of my rebuild will either happen quickly or I may simply take my time and wait till it gets a little warmer.

yea mine is a similar story, lost my job a year ago was a stay @ home dad for a while, then when I got some money and time I took apart my fc to paint it, then bam got a job and got sepperated almost at the same time! now I have been working so much I dont have time to paint it and I need it now :(. Its been a roller coaster thats for sure! now im thinking I need to sell it and get a family car of some type or slightly more geared to that. so I wont get to enjoy the car for that long after its done.

JustJeff

02-21-2011, 01:50 AM

It's warm and things are moving again.

I need to replace my OEM heatshield anyone have opinions on this one. I'm getting a few things from Prosport anyway and the price is right.

http://prosportgauges.com/turbo-heat-shield-blanket-t3-Grey.aspx

JustJeff

03-11-2011, 08:31 AM

Just ordered my Rtek 1.7, will be dropping my ECU in the mail to them later today.

I just wish it would stay warm out. Mother nature keeps teasing me.

89Rotary

03-11-2011, 10:00 AM

This build looks awesome for a "boring stock build" lol

Keep up the good work!!

Heres a quick question, how did you clean your rotors? when i built my N/A that was probably the hardest thing. and now that i've picked up a TII swap, the rotors are staring me in the face laughin!

JustJeff

03-11-2011, 03:15 PM

^Thanks, my work is very moderate and run of the mill compared to more experienced owners.

I've used the videos on rebuildingrotaryengines.com for alot of knowledge and how-to. That combined with an Atkins rebuild dvd and numerous threads asking advice on anything and everything.

http://www.rebuildingrotaryengines.com/
There's a video about cleaning rotors and they use a wire wheel and small brass brush. I followed that for cleaning.

89Rotary

03-11-2011, 10:16 PM

^^ I completly forgot about those video's thanks! lol

JustJeff

03-14-2011, 04:49 PM

Kudos for Pocketlogger. I get an email today just after Noon telling me they received my ECU, I get another email 40 min. later telling me it's chipped and on it's way back to me!!

S5 TII 1.7 is on it's way to me:icon_tup:

I went junkyard hunting yesterday for a Volvo 2 speed fan controller....no luck. It's awful slim pickings at my local junkyards. No 7s, not much of anything actually. There were only two Volvos on their lot that could have had that controller...both were picked clean.

I did get a newer 2 speed Taurus fan than the one I have...this time I got the full harness. Now to figure out a better way to mount it to my Koyo....

JustJeff

03-20-2011, 09:24 PM

Have the Rtek

Found an industrial powder coating shop that will do small items on the side. Their choices in colors are pretty slim but the price is right. $50 for the UIM and LIM sandblasted and in any color they have. I'm thinking black, silver or white. If I did white I'll put a Rising Sun flag that will go over both the UIM and LIM.

Gonna stop in tomorrow and see if I'll get a discount if I bring in lots of parts at once. Might have some local people interested in going in all at once. Hell if anyone is local to Southern Indiana and wants some things done in any of the colors I'm getting....send me a PM.

JustJeff

04-22-2011, 01:54 AM

Parts are getting powder coated a mix of gloss black and silver. Ordered all my rebuild parts from Atkins and Pineapple. Got a turbo blanket from Summit Racing. Using a Starion thermoswitch for my Ford Efan. Um...what else....??

OH....made a decision that my rebuild is going into the black vert and I'll probably be selling the red one after all the turbo parts are swapped onto the black vert.

JustJeff

04-28-2011, 03:49 PM

IIRC the bad apex seal groove was still within FSM specs for overall clearance. BUT it varied by like .002 or .003 from the good side to the damaged side.

I'm having a hard time remembering the exact numbers and I'm too lazy to scroll up and look :07: But that sounds about right. There was enough variance from one end to the other that I was concerned. The rotor would probably be useable for a 3mm apex seal. It does have the one nick in the rotor face so that would create a hot spot. Who knows I may put it up for sale or may have it powder coated and use as a display or clock.

JustJeff

04-28-2011, 04:00 PM

Atkins parts arrived today. Everything looks as it should. I may end up ordering an FD OPR. One thing I forgot to order was hylomar. There is a thread on one of these forums about hylomar and their different formulas. Someone found their old formula that does not harden. Later today I'll dig that thread up and post a link.

I"m still waiting for the Pineapple stand adapter. I ordered at the same time I did Atkins and haven't recieved anything about it shipping out. I hope those don't have a long wait/backorder.

I also hurt my back/neck yesterday. Had to leave work early, didn't got to work today and have a Doc appt. tomorrow. I gotta say yesterday's pain was amazing. Just the g-force from accelerating from a stop was enough to turn me white with pain. Of course that didn't stop me from getting work in on the car. Not related to the engine, but for the black vert swap I'm modding my headunit mount. I'm using the bracket from the vert OEM headunit. Modding it so that I mount my headunit the lowest. I'll then make a front panel for 3 gauges that will fit above the headunit.

JustJeff

06-16-2011, 04:36 PM

Finally got parts back from powder coater. The owner went out of town and left my parts locked in his office. 2 months or so later I have them back and he tossed in a discount on the price.
http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/254324_1989566693188_1063965498_32107006_1756477_n .jpg

http://a8.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/254323_1989567493208_1063965498_32107008_7939820_n .jpg

http://a3.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/248990_1989567893218_1063965498_32107011_6237241_n .jpg

http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/252879_1989568173225_1063965498_32107012_3633998_n .jpg

http://a7.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/261754_1989569813266_1063965498_32107018_1209117_n .jpg

I've got more pics but the camera battery died and I can't find the charger or d/c plug. I did all the pulleys in black. The water pump housing is silver. Did my Infini IV bar ends silver, TID silver, turbo charge pipe silver. Fuel rail silver.

JustJeff

06-19-2011, 12:28 PM

Only semi-related to my rebuild.....my finances might finally be improving!!!!

Interview with the owner of a local company turned better than I could have asked. I was overqualified for that specific opening, but our conversation led to him talking about his future needs. He needs someone to train to manage one specific division of his sales/service. I'll hear from him beginning of this week.

If I do land the job I may celebrate by tossing a lightened flywheel into the mix.

NoDOHC

06-25-2011, 10:46 PM

A light flywheel makes a world of difference in first gear.

Congrats on the interview, I hope you land the job!

JustJeff

06-26-2011, 09:11 AM

^ I did get the job! Not sure if I'll do the lightened flywheel or not, but the engine is being assembled today!! It's been a long time in coming.

JustJeff

06-26-2011, 09:47 PM

So assembly did not happen today. I'm a little more than dissapointed..but tomorrow is a new day.

JustJeff

07-08-2011, 08:48 AM

NoDOHC

07-11-2011, 06:31 PM

Keep after it, you will get it eventually. Just remember that it is a project and a hobby, that should help to keep you from working so hard at it that you burn out.

JustJeff

07-11-2011, 09:05 PM

^ Thanks, I got stressed out trying to get as much done as possible before starting a new position. Now that I've started I'm content waiting. And good thing. I've needed to replace a couple cracked water jacket seals. I had to decide about a middle iron that got corroded mysteriously. While waiting for the water seals to arrive I decided to buy new side seals for one of the rotors.

Story on the side seals are that I bought an FD rotor as a replacement. I meticulously kept track of the side seals and corner seals. Kept track of which slot each one came from. My original good rotor I did not keep such good organization. When it came time to spec out the side seals I found some interesting numbers. Every one of the FD side seals and corner seals were in spec between the two. On the FC rotor I could not find one that was in spec. They were all at .007, one or two was at .008. As reference FSM specs are .0025-.006.

I'm going with new side seals on the FC.

Other updates:
I've got the subframe on the original turbo vert dropped. Differential off and ready to go. I also moved the red turbo vert to my sister's pole barn to make the swap happen. The pole barn is large enough that I can put the verts side by side. Get both subframes and differentials off and swap them.

As an added bonus her family lives on a lake. When it gets too hot I jump in the lake....literally.

As soon as the heat wave passes I'll start prepping body parts for paint. Ideally I'd like to paint the hood, scoop, side skirts, front bumper, lip and touch up a few spots on the body. We'll see how much time allows for.

JustJeff

07-18-2011, 06:57 PM

The waiting is the hardest part...... (in my best Tom Petty voice)

water seals are here. New side seals were on back order from Atkins and the dealership wanted $15 a piece for them. Side seals are now on their way.

In the meantime I've got all the molding off the hood. I was going to paint both the OEM and MS scoops. BUT the OEM scoop is pretty far gone and needs ALOT of work to save it. The front bumper is off. All I need is time so I can get to an autobody supply shop for my wetsanding.

JustJeff

08-15-2011, 09:11 PM

Engine is mostly assembled. I have to check end play on the eccentric shaft. To do that I need to take the engine either to a friends shop or any shop that will use their air tools to torque down the flywheel nut so that I can test end play.

The other option is to research how to torque down that nut with a 150lb torque wrench and a big bar. I know it can be done but not sure what's involved with the whole process. If anyone can toss me some advice it'd be greatly appreciated.

In the mean time I was concerned about whether my turbo blanket would fit so I mocked things up to make sure I didn't have to make any changes. The blanket does touch the LIM and thats with only minimal torque on the nuts. I think it will work out just fine though. I put the UIM on for the hell of it.

http://a2.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/299128_2164566508074_1063965498_32275833_4357876_n .jpg

http://a6.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/294330_2164575868308_1063965498_32275867_7268422_n .jpg

http://a5.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/292785_2164576108314_1063965498_32275868_20530_n.j pg

http://a3.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/297481_2164576268318_1063965498_32275869_3952725_n .jpg

http://a8.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/300458_2164576388321_1063965498_32275870_4661929_n .jpg

Ender

08-15-2011, 10:02 PM

:lol: minivan

RETed

08-15-2011, 11:24 PM

The other option is to research how to torque down that nut with a 150lb torque wrench and a big bar. I know it can be done but not sure what's involved with the whole process. If anyone can toss me some advice it'd be greatly appreciated.

No worries about the ~360 lb-ft torque spec in the FSM.

Most 1/2" impact guns are rated around 250 - 500 lb-ft.
Just zap it with the gun for about 10 seconds.
Good enough.
Don't forget the thread sealant / locker on the threads and mating face of the nut facing the engine.

-Ted

JustJeff

08-15-2011, 11:45 PM

:lol: minivan

Actually its a Prius if you took enough time to look :P I am driving a minivan at times though. What I really love is driving the minivan to my friends tuner shop and the looks the dorifto kids give me.

No worries about the ~360 lb-ft torque spec in the FSM.

Most 1/2" impact guns are rated around 250 - 500 lb-ft.
Just zap it with the gun for about 10 seconds.
Good enough.
Don't forget the thread sealant / locker on the threads and mating face of the nut facing the engine.

-Ted

I talked to the friend who owns a shop. His impact gun is rated to somewhere in the 200s. I was concerned about it but he says he's put a flywheel on an RX7 and they've had no issues with it.

RETed

08-16-2011, 06:12 AM

JustJeff

08-16-2011, 06:34 AM

osirus9

08-19-2011, 04:59 PM

JustJeff

08-19-2011, 08:19 PM

I honestly just tightened my flywheel nut with a huge breaker bar to "Frikkentight" german specs... It never came loose lol. And yes, you need to put locktight on it too.

Love the build progress. I also had some of my stuff powdercoated during my own rebuild and it looked so awesome out of the car. Then once it was in the car I couldnt see it anymore...

Point is, Think of all the stuff that goes ON TOP of the UIM/LIM/engine and get that powdercoated too! I forgot a few things (brackets mostly) and they dont look as good rattle canned as my powdercoated stuff. stuff like block off plates, AC bracket, oil filler neck, throttle cable bracket, IC piping, BAC valve.

I also went through the trouble of polishing the Mazda logo on my engine, but its kinda depressing how impossible it is to see after it's installed.

I got all the parts I chose to have done either black or silver. My cold side of the turbo is the same silver as my homemade TID and my IC charge pipe. I got my InfiniIV strut bar ends the same silver. Eventually I'll get the actual bar done in red, probably the same time I do my front brakes.

I did all my pulleys in the same black as the rest. I didn't do my p/s and a/c bracket. I have an a/c only bracket that I'll eventually be using but need to get the matching a/c compressor.

JustJeff

08-19-2011, 08:32 PM

I've used my Sears Craftsman Professional *electric* 1/2" impact gun in a pinch - that's all we had at the time.
That gun is only rated at 270 lb-ft.
I typically use Permatex "PST" (pipe sealant with teflon) to seal the flywheel nut to the flywheel / rear counterweight and Loctite red on the threads.
I've never had the assembly loosen.

-Ted

Ted, my endplay came up way off. If I'm reading my dial indicator correctly I'm looking at .005 rather than the .0016-.0028. I took the keg to the friends shop to use his air tools. I tested it there. It's still in the back of the van cause I'm waiting for someone to come home and help me lift it out.

The only things I can think of are these:

My Atkins dvd states that I should have 60lbs on the front bolt. I checked my FSM and it says 80-89ish.

Or maybe that I didn't put the crush washer on front bolt. I wasn't sure when to put it on. During endplay test or wait for final assembly of the front cover, oil pump, etc. I erred on the side of caution, not wanting to crush my crush washer when testing end play.

I left the flywheel tightened down and once help gets here I'll get the engine back on the stand and play with more torque and the crush washer.

IIRC my front spacer is a "K" and buying thinner spacers is an option of course, but having almost twice as much as the end spectrum of movement seems like an awful lot. I did have to replace a rotor and housing. But was hoping that using mostly the same parts would mean not having to get a different spacer.

RETed

08-20-2011, 05:06 AM

Ted, my endplay came up way off. If I'm reading my dial indicator correctly I'm looking at .005 rather than the .0016-.0028. I took the keg to the friends shop to use his air tools. I tested it there. It's still in the back of the van cause I'm waiting for someone to come home and help me lift it out.

The only things I can think of are these:

My Atkins dvd states that I should have 60lbs on the front bolt. I checked my FSM and it says 80-89ish.

Or maybe that I didn't put the crush washer on front bolt. I wasn't sure when to put it on. During endplay test or wait for final assembly of the front cover, oil pump, etc. I erred on the side of caution, not wanting to crush my crush washer when testing end play.

I left the flywheel tightened down and once help gets here I'll get the engine back on the stand and play with more torque and the crush washer.

Nah, I think you're overthinking it.
We just normally hand tighten the front eccentric shaft bolt and then check endplay spec.
I've only had to adjust one down or one up front he original spacer in some cases.
I just took a peek at the FSM on the available spacers, and you're still within the available spacer options - you need like a -0.003"?

IIRC my front spacer is a "K" and buying thinner spacers is an option of course, but having almost twice as much as the end spectrum of movement seems like an awful lot. I did have to replace a rotor and housing. But was hoping that using mostly the same parts would mean not having to get a different spacer.

Yeah, that's the problem with changing out housings - that's what causes the different endplay clearances. :(
0.003" is like paper thin - ever see the clearance gauge for that amount?
Stop beating yourself up about it...

-Ted

JustJeff

08-20-2011, 06:16 AM

Thanks for the feedback, and yes my overthinking things is a common theme. I had a night to sleep on it. I tried calling a friend who's torn down a few engines to see if he had any spacers. Nope he doesn't.

I'm gonna see if any machine shops are open today and see about getting my spacer shaved down a few .001. I doubt I'll find any open so I'm also thinking about simply sanding it down with a block and measuring it with some dial calipers.

NoDOHC

08-20-2011, 09:36 AM

JustJeff

08-20-2011, 11:56 AM

Make sure and get it square if you do so. If you change the length of the spacer, you should really change the letter label on it too, so that someone doesn't get confused in the future.

I have 3 spacers and they are all K's

Too much endplay is much better than not enough. Not enough usually means that the front thrust bearing is not centered on the spacer.

I'm thinking the same thing about keeping it square. Originally I was thinking I'd take some scrap wood and use a hole bore drill bit to make a trough for it to sit in. Then use a sanding block. None of my hole bits are the right size. Rather than go out to the store (I'm 20 min. drive each way from anything) I'm gonna set it on a flat surface and sand the top side of it. I've got some dial calipers and am going to take some measurements at different points for before and after.

If I screw it up I'm no worse off in the long run. I won't put it on if it doesn't measure square. I can't use it as-is.

I thought of the same thing with marking it, but am not sure what to mark it with. I don't have anything to engrave it with. Paint will come off. I've taken all kinds of notes and kept a picture archive. That way if I ever sell the car or engine the buyer has a record showing I did a quality job on the rebuild and any other little details they or I might need down the road.

I came in to check measurements on the spacers so I can start sanding this down. Who knows, if I butcher this I may be back in putting up a "Want to buy" thread for narrower spacers :P

JustJeff

08-20-2011, 02:23 PM

Came in to take a beer break and announce that sanding worked. I've got written down how much I took off the spacer, more important I measured on 6 points around the spacer and it's all even. Most important end play is .0021

NoDOHC

08-21-2011, 09:32 PM

Awesome, glad that you got it fixed!

Gregory Casimir

08-23-2011, 10:19 AM

hey what did you use to paint the engine irons, housings, and plenum?

JustJeff

08-24-2011, 01:44 AM

Awesome, glad that you got it fixed!

Thanks, though I've been so busy with work that the project is moving very slowly. I hate it when real life gets in the way of my fun time. I just got home from putting in 8 hours after my 8-5 shift. We've got a special event going on in a couple days and the boss and I are putting in mad hours making sure it goes smoothly. I'll be there late tomorrow and the next day. I might put in a half day on Saturday just to catch up on things that are falling behind because of prep for the special event.

hey what did you use to paint the engine irons, housings, and plenum?

Irons and housings are rattle can high temp paints. I used high temp primer and I used aluminum primer for the housings. I also put a couple coats of clear on.

The plenums, block-off plates, front cover, pulleys, water pump housing, turbo compressor housing, turbo charge pipe, and inlet ducting are all powder coated. Oh I've also got an Infini IV bar that I have the ends powder coated. Eventually I'll get the actual bar as well as a spare set of 4 piston brakes powder coated.

diabolical1

09-11-2011, 10:44 AM

My inspiration

http://a6.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/261619_2079993833810_1063965498_32169231_5468793_n .jpg

I found this in my nephew's Hot Wheels collection. It was originally mine many years ago...hell a couple decades ago. It was a gift shortly after my father bought his first RX-7...an FB. I had forgotten I even had it, but it's kinda nice to see my inspirations as a kid turned into an adult hobby.

are you sure that's Hot Wheels? i have a Matchbox car (when they were still quality made in Lesney) and i think that's what that is. i remember my sister and i burying one car each by my mother's job when we were kids and then i bought another one after i got into Rx-7s. sometimes i still think of going by my Mom's old job and trying to dig it up - only thing is i may get arrested by Homeland security. LOL. :)

good stuff in this thread!

JustJeff

09-11-2011, 11:09 AM

are you sure that's Hot Wheels? i have a Matchbox car (when they were still quality made in Lesney) and i think that's what that is. i remember my sister and i burying one car each by my mother's job when we were kids and then i bought another one after i got into Rx-7s. sometimes i still think of going by my Mom's old job and trying to dig it up - only thing is i may get arrested by Homeland security. LOL. :)

good stuff in this thread!

Thanks, I've got some more pics and progress but haven't taken the time to upload the pics. Engine is assembled, I worked out the vacuum and fuel plumbing yesterday. I made new OMP/MOP hoses. I cleaned the engine bay a little bit throughout the week. Got a new ACT clutch kit on and I'm doing the transmission today. Hopefully the engine goes in today.

The car is on the work bench...and you are correct. It is a Matchbox. About digging it up, I think you should definitely do it today...make sure you wrap a towel around your head beforehand for added effect.

JustJeff

09-12-2011, 06:25 PM

Slowly between work and more work I'm getting things done.

I made new OMP/MOP hoses..Don't know why the first pic rotated?? I know some people leave the hoses bare rather than put the sleeving back on so that they can see whether oil is traveling through them. But I think I can see enough at the top before they go under the UIM. That and eventually I'll be putting woven cable sleeving over everything. Wanted to keep that theme.
http://a6.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/s720x720/313629_2235681405902_1063965498_32351238_945311743 _n.jpg

http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/s720x720/300422_2235681605907_1063965498_32351239_742678868 _n.jpg

http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/s720x720/308316_2235681885914_1063965498_32351240_163807056 1_n.jpg

http://a7.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/s720x720/316292_2235682445928_1063965498_32351241_519454605 _n.jpg

This broke taking the hoses off. I plugged it with some RTV and a tiny screw. I've removed most of the vacuum solenoids so I'm simply tapping off an unused nipple on the UIM for the other OMP/MOP injector.
http://a5.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/s720x720/297987_2235682645933_1063965498_32351242_247161681 _n.jpg

http://a3.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/s720x720/298159_2235682845938_1063965498_32351243_173624006 8_n.jpg

Blurry but you get the idea
http://a2.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/s720x720/321443_2235683325950_1063965498_32351244_115130876 0_n.jpg

http://a8.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/s720x720/292001_2235683685959_1063965498_32351245_148245166 3_n.jpg

My goal was to have the engine in yesterday. BUT I took the n/a engine to a friends shop for eventual teardown. It's 20min. away and I apparently lost my studs for the a/c and p/s adapter. I spent a good amount of time yesterday first driving to get a engine mount bracket. Then learning I needed the studs. Then getting there and realizing that I needed the nuts so I could do the double nut stud removal trick. Leaving now to put the finishing touches on and HOPEFULLY put the engine in.

Transmission is bolted on. A/C and P/S is bolted on. Gotta figure out which of my 4 engine mounts are in best shape and I should be good to go.

JustJeff

09-25-2011, 04:03 PM

I'm going to make a separate thread cause I don't know how many people actually look at this...but here is a question I've come up with.....

When removing the duty/boost solenoid should I depin it from the ECU? And should I remove it at all?

My build is in my signature. S5 JDM engine, N370 Rtek 1.7, RB REV TII exhaust, Hallman MBC. I've removed all the solenoids accept the PRC. I've got the rats nest on but with vacuum caps on everything no longer used.

I'm planning to depin 2M which is the VDI on N/A and knock on turbos. Should I depin 3R (Duty/Boost Solenoid)? Or with the Rtek should I be keeping the boost solenoid intact?

RETed

09-25-2011, 11:02 PM

I've seen the other thread, but I'll reply here...

It is my understanding that the (stock) ECU looks for resistance in the circuit.
If it doesn't see the required resistance, it triggers an error code.
Your plan of depinning the wiring harness should end up throwing an error code...
The good side is that this doesn't trigger some ugly limp-home mode - it just causes the CHECK ENGINE light to come on.

-Ted

JustJeff

09-26-2011, 02:29 PM

Thanks Ted. So ideally I want to keep the ECU pinned. And also keep the solenoid plugged in, but cap the vacuum. That keeps it from doing anything?

I'll have to do a little research. I once knew what needed changed from N/A harness to turbo harness but have forgotten it. I thought depining would solve those problems.

JustJeff

09-27-2011, 03:38 PM

Soooo close to trying to get it to turn over.

I had to order spark plugs...I should be able to pick them up today after wrok.
I have to top off transmission fluid. It burns my ass that I need 2.5 liters and the bottles come in 1 liter. I had a cheap moment and held off on buying a 3rd bottle of Royal Purple fluid....$60 for tranny fluid makes me cringe.
Obviously I have a couple electrical/ECU issues to work out.
I need a fuse for my efan
Gotta work out vacuum hoses for my MAP, boost gauge and OEM BOV...speaking of which I have a question that I'll post a pic about.

JustJeff

09-27-2011, 03:49 PM

I've read about using restrictor pills for boost gauges to keep them from bouncing and MAP for even readings at the ECU. I've stolen these off the previous N/A engine. Is there any reason why I can't use these check valves?

http://a8.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/s720x720/296781_2284316741755_1063965498_32387991_147941547 0_n.jpg

Pete_89T2

09-27-2011, 05:39 PM

Yup, these check valves don't really restrict airflow all that much in the "open" direction, and they completely block airflow in the "closed" direction. That's not what you want for plumbing the MAP pressure sensor or a boost gauge - what you want is a restriction in the airflow, which has the effect of dampening the transient pressure spikes your MAP sensor or boost gauge would see.

The restrictor pill is a little plastic thingy with a tiny hole thru it that fits inside the vacuum hose. Most of us loose these when replacing old worn out vacuum hoses. You can fabricate one pretty easily as follows:

1. Get a straight-thru style vacuum hose coupler.
2. Fill the inside of the coupler with some epoxy putty or JB weld.
3. Before epoxy fully hardens, run a pin through it to create your restrictive path for airflow.

LunchboxCritter

09-27-2011, 07:48 PM

Advance auto parts has those restrictor pills, they are like a buck.

JustJeff

09-27-2011, 10:11 PM

JustJeff

09-27-2011, 10:29 PM

I did some reading tonight and just about have my ECU and electronics worked out. What I couldn't remember from years ago when I read it last was this.

N/A harness VDI needs to change to knock sensor. Y/B wire on VDI is wired to the knock sensor. I don't have a knock box so I'm not concerned about it. For now I'll do nothing and see if I throw a CEL. If I have to I can solder a patch cable from the knock sensor to a spade that I'd plug into the VDI harness. The side that corresponds to Y/B.

6 Port Injection on the N/A harness needs to change to duty solenoid. My N/A harness is in gorgeous shape so I didn't want to cut it up. I took my old N/A to turbo harness and cut the duty solenoid plug/harness off of it. I soldered wires with spades to that harness. I bolted the duty solenoid to the TMIC support on the driver side. Plug in the harness and put the spade terminals into the N/A 6PI harness.

For now I have the solenoids from the N/A engine plugged into the appropriate harnesses. I took the time to measure resistances on the solenoids.

Duty solenoid = 31-35ohms
all the others = 36-37ohms

I've been waiting for my oil filter adapter to show up from Prosport. I ordered it almost a week ago and it hasn't left Florida yet. USPS accepted it in on the 21st in Tampa and in 5 days time it moved from Tampa to Opa Locka. Priority shipping FTW :banghead:

I guess I'll leave the sensor wires unplugged and worry about the adapter and those gauges during my first oil change.

Who knows I may try to turn it over tomorrow night after work.

Pete_89T2

09-28-2011, 05:24 AM

Advance auto parts has those restrictor pills, they are like a buck.

That's good to know - when I was in need of one of these and asked for "restrictor pills" and described them, the local Advance/Auto Zone counter guys were clueless and looked at me like I had 10 heads!

JustJeff

09-28-2011, 07:57 AM

That's good to know - when I was in need of one of these and asked for "restrictor pills" and described them, the local Advance/Auto Zone counter guys were clueless and looked at me like I had 10 heads!

LOL, I know that feeling. Fortunately, one of the Nissan drift guys from my friends shop works at the Advanced Auto just down the road from me. I'm betting if I describe what I want he'll be able to work it out. The guy actually has a really nice S2000 that he modded into a permanent hardtop with a kevlar roof.

JustJeff

09-29-2011, 11:38 PM

I have semi-success. The engine turned over with very little effort!!

The engine doesn't stall out and holds idle perfectly. I can take my foot off the gas and idle is even and low. I stopped and started it several times and it never missed a start. I only let it run for short intervals before I shut it down to check coolant levels, oil, signs of leaks, etc. After a few starts I did raise the RPMs up to 2k and held it there for a little bit.

HOWEVER....
there is substantial smoke coming from behind the turbo. It's coming from between the turbo and LIM. It doesn't smell like coolant or oil and I'm not leaking any fluids. But it also doesn't start smoking right away. I'm hoping it's just something burning off. I do have a turbo blanket on there. Do those burn off when they are first used?

The exhaust does sound like it has a leak..obviously I'm hoping it's not one of the gaskets between either the manifold or turbo. I did have trouble tightening the top downpipe bolt that sits closest to the engine. I did buy the turbo used as a replacement...hopefully I didn't get a junk turbo.

I'm also concerned about the cooling system. I don't have any leaks. I'm not loosing any coolant. And that is part of my concern. I'd think air should be working it's way out of the engine. I did a pretty good job of filling it...but there has got to be air that needs to come out....and the level never dropped. The return hose from engine to radiator got amazingly hot. The OEM temp gauge never got above halfway, but the hose, top of the radiator and even the water pump pulley got very hot. The top of the radiator got too hot to touch and I shut the engine down. Another concern is that my electric fan never kicked on. Those two things combined and I decided to let the engine cool down before something very bad happened. I checked the inlet hose at the bottom of the radiator and it was hardly warm at all. My concern is whether the coolant is traveling through the engine at all.

Another concern is that I never saw any oil traveling through the OMP/MOP lines. I have clear hoses and I didn't think to check them until I had turned the engine off for the night. There was no sign of oil in them.

Oh and all of my aftermarket gauges were not reading correctly. The boost gauge is pegged at max and never moves. It's been pointing the same since I took it out of storage.

The water temp gauge never seemed to move, nor did the oil temp. The oil pressure is a warning gauge and I haven't set it correctly yet. So all it does is beep at me.

All the gauges are electronic ones and I'll check grounds and such tomorrow after work. They all illuminate correctly, so that's one good sign anyway....

Can't call it a success yet, but I've got some encouraging signs anyway.

RETed

09-30-2011, 03:12 AM

HOWEVER....
there is substantial smoke coming from behind the turbo. It's coming from between the turbo and LIM. It doesn't smell like coolant or oil and I'm not leaking any fluids. But it also doesn't start smoking right away. I'm hoping it's just something burning off. I do have a turbo blanket on there. Do those burn off when they are first used?

Not a surprise...
As a rule, allow turbos and any kind of wrap to smoke for at least 30 minutes.
Some will smoke significantly.
Once the items all get to regular operating temperature, give it at least an hour before the smoking will stop.
As long as it doesn't smell like burning gasoline / oil / coolant, don't worry about it too much.

-Ted

JustJeff

09-30-2011, 07:48 AM

Thanks again Ted. I'm using your guide for engine break-in guide

http://fc3spro.com/TECH/FAQ/breakin.html

Combined with with Lynn Hannover's first start up guide
http://www.knology.net/~rv7rotary/Starting%20a%20Rotary%20Engine%20for%20the%20First %20Time.htm

I did not take manifolds off and check apex seals. I did pour oil in the oil filter holes. I did the outer hole and turned the engine by hand backwards. I did that a couple times. I poured oil in the center hole. I did not take off the oil pressure sensor. I have normal oil pressure, but is it possible I have air trapped and that's what's keeping my oil pressure up? I didn't get any sign of oil having travelled through my OMP/MOP hoses. Also my oil filter was very hot. Hotter than normal.

I'll do some reading over lunch on burping air out of coolant and oil systems.

RETed

09-30-2011, 10:03 AM

Wow, that's some procedure just to make sure the oil system is working properly!

Typically, I prevent the engine from firing by disabling the fuel system somehow.
Usually easiest is to just unplug the fuel pump connector on the driver's side rear shock tower.
You can also just disable the stock ECU by pulling the EGI fuse under the hood.
Crank the engine over a few time, and this should be more than enough to prime the oil system.
If the engine was recently rebuilt, I'm sure liberal use of oil on all bearing and internal engine surfaces (or use of an assembly lube) was done to prevent damage from initial start-up.

How are you monitoring oil pressure?
Are you just looking at the stock oil pressure gauge?
If this is the case, the stock oil pressure sensor could be bad or failing.
Increased resistance in the circuit will cause the gauge to read high.
I would recommend installing a good quality aftermarket oil pressure gauge; if you can get one with the more expensive pressure *transducer*, those are more accurate.

As for oil temperature...
Do you have an aftermarket oil temperature gauge installed?
IR temperature gun on the oil filter?

-Ted

JustJeff

09-30-2011, 02:05 PM

Yes the procedure for priming the oil system was a PITA and I ended up with lots and lots of oil on the garage floor.

I've pulled the EGI fuse in the past for flooding, but didn't do it for start up. I was actually expecting the engine to turn a few times without firing up.

Right now I'm monitoriing oil pressure with the OEM gauge. It read like normal the whole time. If I held the RPMS up the pressure raised if i let it down it dropped. I forget what the second to the highest mark on the gauge reads (80 or 90) but it hovered around there and then when the RPMs dropped down to near 0 pressure would drop to around 30ish.

I do have aftermarket gauges, all electronic. I've got Prosport Water and Oil Temp, and their Premium for Oil Pressure...the one with the warning. I also have a Greddy v2 boost gauge. I have not setup the pressure gauge yet so it simply beeps at me. I was trying to set it while monitoring everything else, but had too much going on. All the other aftermarket gauges did not seem to be working. I've got the Prosports all wired into common wires for everything but their sensors. Common ground for all 3, common lighting, ACC, etc.

I don't own an IR temp gun, but the oil filter got hot enough that I wish that I did.

It was getting late in the night so I didn't have time to really mess with much of anything. I checked for leaks and didn't find anything and at that point it was 10:30.

I was getting CEL blinking but didn't even have time to pull the code.

Tonight after work I'll try and get all these issues ironed out.

JustJeff

10-02-2011, 08:05 AM

I believe I worked out my electric fan issue. Turns out I remembered the wires on the electric fan harness incorrectly. I'm using a Ford 2 speed fan. I assumed that solid black was ground....when in fact Ford chose the ONLY wire that is something other than black to be the ground. For the record, blue on the Ford efan is ground.

My new problem with the fan is this. I had my TMIC bracket lying on top of the A/C and P/S bracket while messing with my oil filter. It fell off and ended up hitting the positive terminal of my battery. Many sparks were had and it scared the shit out of me. I blew the inline fuse going to the efan. Now everytime I plug a new fuse in and plug the efan harness in that fuse blows. I tried disconnecting the battery negative and it kept blowing fuses. I disconnected neg and pos and it still blew fuses. At that point I ran out of fuses.

I've checked all the other fuses on the car and none are blown. My thinking is that I've got the the efan hooked up to high speed not low. IIRC on high speed that fan pulls like 40amps and my little mini inline holder only goes up to 30amp fuses.

When I originally wired in the efan I thought I was wiring in low speed and ground. I had the ground wire wrong. When I changed the ground to the correct wire I kept the power wire the same...which I'm betting is high.

After breakfast I'll be going to get a regular sized inline fuse holder so that I can go up to 40amps. BUT I'll also be moving it to the low speed. I simply hate having the efan as the only mini fuse in the car.

Here is how I wired in my efan..it's taken from a guide on 7club
http://a7.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/291907_2298443294910_1063965498_32399307_113792741 2_n.jpg

I followed a modification of the diagram for manual switch to turn the fan on regardless of the temp switch. I'm wondering if the mod I followed is correct. It has a toggle switch wired inline between the thermoswitch and 86 on the relay. After following the mod it dawned on me that having the manual switch there may not actually turn the fan on. It would only allow the thermoswitch to do it's job IF temps rise to the point that it would normally turn on. IF that makes any sense?

JustJeff

10-02-2011, 08:11 AM

To better clarify the manual switch. I used someone's S4 diagram as a reference
http://www.13betc.com/images/tech/s4onerelaysm.jpg

After I wired it in I started thinking. Simply putting a toggle switch between the thermoswitch and the 86 on the relay will not create continuity and thus turn the fan on. Won't it simply either allow continuity to go through if it is on and block the continuity if it is off?

RETed

10-02-2011, 08:14 PM

JustJeff

10-02-2011, 10:21 PM

Updates: I was going to take the car down the road and see how it drives, test the ACT clutch I put in, etc. Pulled the car out of the garage and quickly realized that I had not bled the front brakes from when I put on the Tein springs and Tokicos. Turns out that was providence. I hadn't put the hood on yet and as I'm pulling the car back into the garage I see a shower of oil. I developed a pin hole in my oil cooler line. I've got a spare set from the N/A engine. But I'm thinking about the stainless steel ones, either that or taking my bad hose to a brake shop or truck shop and asking them to make a stainless hose.

I've tracked down one problem with my aftermarket gauges. I had not tightened down my common ground bolt. I had left it hand tightened. Oil temp gauge is working as it should. Water temp I believe is dead. The warning oil pressure gauge is still not reading anything. All it ever does is warn me and show zero. I went to Prosport's website and it says:

Q: Can I wire multiple gauges to the same power and ground source?
A: Yes-each gauge draws about 1 ma.

Q: Can I mix Premium Series gauges with Performance Series Gauges?
A: Yes. Keep in mind they need to be wired separately as the wiring is different. The two light up the same colors, but have different bezel profiles and slightly different bezel color.

I've got them going to common ground, ACC power, common lighting. The Premium gauge I then run to constant power. Of course each gauge is wired to it's own sensor/sender.

I switched sensor wires for the oil and water temps and it seems that the water temp is dead. Oil temp will read both water and oil temps correctly. Water temp will read nothing. Even when no power is to it it sits at around 190. It does an opening ceremony, but never drops below the 190 mark.

I've got an oil leak. I believe it is from the 4 port adapter for the aftermarket gauges. With my troubles getting the Prosport pressure gauge to read anything and the leak...and the water temp being dead. I'm very tempted to simply loose the adapter, use my oil temp as my water temp. Worry about my pressure warning gauge a little later...possibly doing the adapter for the oil cooler hose return line.

JustJeff

10-02-2011, 10:33 PM

Yeah, the toggles switch just kills the circuit even if the thermoswitch is triggered on.
Your circuit is wired in series.

I think what you're looking for is for the switch to be wired in parallel to the thermoswitch.
This allows you to turn on the fan regardless if the thermoswitch is triggered not; in another sense, it's a failsafe switch just in case the thermoswitch fails and never triggers!

Side note, I have never come across a thermoswitch (especially a cheap one) that is reliable enough to depend on for my main coolant fan trigger...
Those thermoswitches which rely on a "probe" pushed into the radiator fins are notorious for failing.
Having a back-up switch to manually turn the fan on is always a good idea!

-Ted

I'm using a Starion thermoswitch in the back of the water pump housing. I definitely want a manual switch. The idea of being stranded by poor wiring is enough to make me want to kick a kitten.

I already have the manual switch wired in. I followed the S5 diagram, but added the manual switch like the S4 showed. Sounds like all I need to do is leave that wiring in place and still soldered to 86 on the relay. Then just take wiring direct from the thermoswitch to to 86 on the relay.

What I'm tempted to do is wire in the manual switch to the high speed of the efan, but for now I just want to have the car leave the driveway :driving:

JustJeff

10-03-2011, 09:45 PM

Got the oil cooler hose replaced. I used the older one off the N/A because I was afraid I didn't store the newer one of my turbo well. Now I've got the newer but not properly stored one on. I started the car up and let it warm up...no leaks from the hoses so far.

Before work tomorrow I'm taking my old hoses to a brake shop so they can quote me on making stainless woven hoses. If the OEM hoses fail again I'll have some made.

I created a fuel leak at the front secondary injector. I've been partially taking the UIM off but not disconnecting the coolant line from engine keg to throttle body. That causes me to have to set the UIM on the LIM kinda awkwardly. I bet I knocked the fuel rail in the process.

JustJeff

10-05-2011, 07:57 AM

Pete_89T2

10-05-2011, 05:04 PM

Ugh, I believe I've corrected the leaking injector. But I took the UIM off and found some coolant on top of the engine. Pooled in the pockets where the LIM meets the keg. I ran out of time last night but tonight after work I'll find out more.

Sounds like the hose between the rear iron & TB puked, or possibly one of the small hoses (TB to BAC valve or BAC valve to water pump housing) is leaking.

JustJeff

10-05-2011, 05:55 PM

Sounds like the hose between the rear iron & TB puked, or possibly one of the small hoses (TB to BAC valve or BAC valve to water pump housing) is leaking.

Thats what I'm hoping. I've been taking the UIM off repeatedly working out the solenoids and also my adapter for my aftermarket gauges. I haven't been pulling the hose to the TB off just pulling it awkwardly. I'm hoping I simply loosened something.

Also on first start up I didn't have the BAC hose clamped at the BAC. But that was a week ago and I would have thought that would have evaporated off by now.

I'm hoping that the leak isn't coming from between the LIM and keg

I took the UIM off completely to (hopefully) fix a fuel leak where the front secondary injector meets the fuel rail. I didn't previously have that leak but I put different o ring on and I'll find out in a little bit if that fixed it.

Oil cooler hose fixed
Fuel leak hopefully fixed
Coolant leak hopefully fixed
Hopefully tonight the car can leave the driveway.

Oh one question. If I want to put the manual switch for my efan on high speed can I simply wire the switch into the high positive wire and leave the ground through the relay? Should that wire have an inline fuse at the battery?

JustJeff

10-05-2011, 09:25 PM

Welp, definitely not in a good mood tonight. Coolant is leaking from between the LIM and housing. Or at least I've checked everything around it. No leaks from any hoses, no leaks from the sensors on the back of the water pump housing. I guess this weekend the turbo and LIM are coming off.

JustJeff

10-08-2011, 09:26 AM

Is this diagram correct for a manual switch on a S5?

http://a5.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/s720x720/318425_2317456650232_1063965498_32414539_409616596 _n.jpg

JustJeff

10-08-2011, 03:24 PM

I think I have found my coolant leak without taking the LIM off. BUT now I have either a wiring, CPU or factory alarm issue. Everytime I start the car my driver door sensor triggers my horn and flashes my lights. They don't pop up but the do light up. After the engine has been running, if I close the door the lights flash once and the horn blows.

I also seem to have the oil leak taken care of. But I'm using used hoses so I'll be keeping an eye on them.

Gonna pull the CPU off my old vert and see if I can swap them. My concern is that the old vert is an 89, the new one is a 90 with airbag. Hopefully there are no differences in the CPUs. I'll check part numbers soon as I have them both out. But I've also got some reading to do. I remember people having issues with the CPU and OEM alarm and it has to do with having to resolder...I can't remember the rest of it.

I've also been able to tighten up some of the exhaust bolts. I was able to get all the bolts from turbo to manifold. I could get the bottom bolts on the manifold to engine. Could not get to the top bolts on the manifold. My plan all along has been to take the car to an exhaust shop and have them hang the exhaust properly. My RB exhaust has the typical driver side tip being lower than the passenger side. While doing that I"ll ask them to tighten the suspect areas down better.

The engine is not idling as smoothly. But I haven't done anything with the CAS or TPS. I started testing the TPS by memory of the process. It might be bad... if my memory serves me correct.

JustJeff

10-09-2011, 01:06 PM

CPUs are different. I opened mine up to find this

http://a2.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/s720x720/305251_2320961257845_1063965498_32418065_241225945 _n.jpg

We do extensive electronic repairs where I work. A coworker is a car guy. I'll take it in on Monday and see what he says. I'm sure he can replace the suspect areas. The chard circuit board doesn't look very repairable though...but I'm far from an expert.

The car had problems with the alarm before this. It would spontaneously go off from time to time. I had originally thought it was a sticky passenger lock switch.

I can buy the board from mazdatrix for like $90. Anyone have a used one I can buy??

JustJeff

10-20-2011, 02:00 PM

Update: Coworker replaced some caps that were leaking. He can't read the color indicators on the swollen and chard resistors (?). I tried plugging it in with just the caps replaced and it was actually worse. The alarm idiot light is on all the time and the door light is on all the time.

I've got someone for 7club sending me an old CPU of theirs. High beems don't work on that one but it will make due for now. The guy at work is interested in piecing one good one together out of the two bad ones.

Also the exhaust gaskets arrived yesterday. Turbo and feed lines are unbolted. Downpipe is unbolted...but I probably have to unbolt the downpipe at the presilencer also to get the turbo off.

Once I've got the manifold off I may cut the OEM heatshield so that I can get to all the bolts. Either that or I may get some of the exhaust wrap and use that instead of the OEM shield.

JustJeff

11-06-2011, 12:02 AM

So incredibly frustrated

Got a new CPU from Mazdatrix
Got the engine to manifold gasket replaced
Got the mainifold to turbo gasket replaced
Have the efan wired properly...though I may go back and put larger gauge wires in

Started the car up tonight and it's got a horrible vacuum leak. It whistles and stalls. I was too worn out from helping a coworker with a surveillance system install to mess with it. Guess I'll start taking things apart tomorrow and find the leak.

vrracing

11-07-2011, 06:10 PM

JustJeff

11-07-2011, 09:52 PM

If the leak is that bad I wouldnt take things apart. Instead, pull the AFM and fab up a cap/plug with PVC fittings from HD or Lowes. Then pressurize the system with your compressor.

Here's a vid we shot of our test setup.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3cFiOfUFofo

It includes an TMIC bypass pipe so we could get at all the potential leakpoints in the rat's nest and intake manifolds.

We also made this vid showing how we used dry ice in a watering can to make seeing the source of a leak easier to find. If you smoke that'll work too. Unless you have a pulsation damper leak in which case you might blow up! :sifone:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i5Gluq4rGwI

Hope those help.

Interesting idea....though I don't own a compressor. I'm actually thinking of paying someone to finish this up and work out the bugs. I simply don't have the time to work on it and when I do find time I find myself rushing to get as much done as possible and I start making mistakes and missing things......like great big vacuum leaks.

mazdadude7

11-10-2011, 09:42 PM

sounds like mine i havea few leaks that I gotta get taken care of think ones a oil pan and then my fuel line is cracked and i see that one pretty clearly...

JustJeff

11-13-2011, 10:20 PM

I have barely touched the car in a week. I did some car stuff but not engine related. I believe I worked out a wiring mistake I made with my boost gauge.

I also bought some JDM fog lights and am in the process of polishing the lenses....matter of fact I took some pics I'll post.

JustJeff

11-13-2011, 11:03 PM

Got some JDM fogs for pretty cheap. Bought them off somebody who was parting out a front clip. They were pretty scratched up. I followed an online guide for restoration. I wet sanded with 400, 800, 1000, and 2000 grit. Then polished with some Plastix. The guide actually called for 1500 grit mixed in there. I thought I had some but didn't and didn't want to go back out to the store. The guide called for doing one pass horizontal and another vertical for each grit.

The results are a good start but not good enough. From a distance they look pretty alright. But up close you can see light scratches from the sanding. I'm gonna do them over. Any advice would be appreciated.

I wish I had taken a before shot or two, but all I have are the afters.
http://a6.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/s720x720/311373_2446248389945_1063965498_32501119_749737949 _n.jpg

http://a7.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/s720x720/381852_2446247269917_1063965498_32501115_110515025 8_n.jpg

One deep scratch that was missed. I may go back and start with 320 grit. You can also see the sanding marks.
http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/s720x720/386942_2446248189940_1063965498_32501118_139349472 3_n.jpg

Sanding marks really show with them lit up
http://a2.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/s720x720/388062_2446249989985_1063965498_32501127_604339177 _n.jpg

http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/s720x720/378769_2446250429996_1063965498_32501128_279282887 _n.jpg

http://a6.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/s720x720/376810_2446251230016_1063965498_32501131_192996373 7_n.jpg

Anyone have advice on how to do this better? My plan next time around is to start with 320 for the deep scratchs and make sure I have some 1500 grit. Probably use more pressure. Also, I wasn't using a sanding pad or block, just hands. I'll use something next time.

RETed

11-14-2011, 01:57 AM

Are you doing this by hand?
Power buffers would help a LOT.

I'm not a pro at this, but we used to mess around with plastics and rubbing compounds and *Brasso*.
I'm sure the dedicated plastic polishes work, but Brasso was something that was always around, and we had to take care of a lot of brass when I used to do the ROTC thing back in high school.

-Ted

JustJeff

11-15-2011, 02:44 PM

Yeah doing it by hand. I don't own a mounted wheel. If it doesn't turn out well enough by hand I may look into a buffing bit for a drill or my dremel. My concern with the dremel is how fast that spins.

I own a foam/sponge pad for sanding bodywork. As of yet I can't find it. Hopefully tonight after work I have time to get to the body supply shop. I need a sheet of 1500 grit.

RETed

11-15-2011, 04:33 PM

Pete_89T2

11-15-2011, 06:14 PM

Dremel is way too fast and too small - you're going to gouge the plastic. :(
Even if you manage to slow it down, it's going to take a long time to do the whole lens.

What I did was get a buffer attachment for a drill.
Most of the buffer covers - usually wool or equivalent - are too course for your application.
I used a discarded T-shirt and covered the whole thing - cut & tied to fit snugly - to give you a more finer (smoother?) buffing surface.
Work slowly until you get a feel for the buffing action.

-Ted

Agreed, but save yourself some time & guesswork and just buy the Meguire's or an equivalent headlight restoration kit. The Meguires kit comes with a buffer attachment for your drill that is just the right size for headlight work, and has a washable pad that has just the right level of abrasiveness for the job - it's on the fine/soft side. I found that if you follow the directions, run the drill at 1/2 to 3/4 of max speed and bear down with moderate pressure, you'll get good results. Multiple passes from opposite/overlapping directions works best. For the FTP lenses, removing them from the car & securing them in a vise makes life easier.

JustJeff

11-15-2011, 08:10 PM

My thing with the kit is that I already own alot of wetsand paper. I'm also prepping body panels for paint so I already own a variety paper.

I do own a orbital buffer and all kinds of bonnets (microfiber, terry cloth, wool), I think 12in. II've got one of the lenses out of the mount. I could hit it with that but I"m concerned with how large that is and that I'd end up hitting the metal frame the lense is in.

I'm thinking if I use a buffing wheel I'll have to do it with a drill bit. BUT will just using the Meguire's Plastx buffer/polishing clean up those "swirl marks"? I'm thinking I have to work those down with wetsanding, then hit with a buffer.

JustJeff

11-20-2011, 06:55 PM

Sweet Baby Jesus!!!

The engine has life again. I had broken off the stud at the LIM for the coolant feed to the turbo. Had to take the intakes and turbo off to get it out. That being done, the engine turned over and idles.

Issues that still need worked out:

Exhaust leak, it's a small one but it's dinner time and cold out.
Efan blew the fuse. I manually turned it on to check the wiring and it ran till I turned it off. Then would not turn back on.
Gauges STILL aren't working right. Well the aftermarket ones, OEM gauges work fine.

Pete_89T2

11-21-2011, 07:20 PM

Sweet Baby Jesus!!!

The engine has life again.

Congrats!

Issues that still need worked out:

Exhaust leak, it's a small one but it's dinner time and cold out.
Efan blew the fuse. I manually turned it on to check the wiring and it ran till I turned it off. Then would not turn back on.
Gauges STILL aren't working right. Well the aftermarket ones, OEM gauges work fine.

On #2, when you "manually turned it on", how did you do that - shunt/short circuit the fuse terminals to get it to run? With a new fuse in there, does it tend to blow out the fuse as soon as the fan kicks on? If the answer to both is yes, then it sounds like your fuse may be undersized for the inrush current load. Whenever you start an electric motor, the instananeous current draw is many times higher than its steady state current draw. If the fuse can't handle the inrush current, it will blow out every time.

JustJeff

11-21-2011, 07:39 PM

Congrats!

On #2, when you "manually turned it on", how did you do that - shunt/short circuit the fuse terminals to get it to run? With a new fuse in there, does it tend to blow out the fuse as soon as the fan kicks on? If the answer to both is yes, then it sounds like your fuse may be undersized for the inrush current load. Whenever you start an electric motor, the instananeous current draw is many times higher than its steady state current draw. If the fuse can't handle the inrush current, it will blow out every time.

I wired in a manual switch and mounted it on the dash panel below the steering wheel. I flipped the switch and it came right on. Flipped the switch again and it turned off. Then never came on again. I'm using a 40amp fuse on an inline holder.
I'm going to go over the wiring again. I believe the ground wire going from the relay to the ground is undersized. I'm going to go all 10ga wiring for the fan. Right now some of the wiring is below that.

As for the gauges I'm suspicious of my ground for both the boost and pressure warning gauge. The water temp gauge is grounded in the engine compartment. The boost and pressure gauge are grounded in the cockpit. Last I checked the temp gauge worked fine, but I did not check it last night. I was kind of rushed trying to get to a family dinner. Starting up the car and idling it was the last thing I did before leaving kinda hastily.

JustJeff

11-21-2011, 07:50 PM

One thing I forgot to add last night. I've got soft brakes. I thought that I had bled all 4 brake lines well enough. I didn't see any air in the lines at all. But still soft brakes. Last time I took it down the street and back I had to use the ebrake.

I'm guessing the master cylinder is bad. I don't know if it's related or not, but when I first filled the reservoir I came back the next day and the whole thing had drained from a leak in the seal/s at the bottom. I filled it up and put some screw clamps around it. It hasn't leaked since. But the brakes haven't worked right since then either.

Pete_89T2

11-22-2011, 09:02 PM

JustJeff

11-22-2011, 10:16 PM

Definitely replace that master cylinder, any leaks there result in no brakes.

On the fan wiring, is it still per the schematic diagram on post #112? Is it blowing those 40A fuses when turned on with the switch, or is it just not running repeatably when you flip the switch on/off? If it's the latter, first thing to check is the wiring & grounds - may have a loose intermittent connection somewhere, or its also possible the relay contacts may be going bad (carbon arcing). If it is blowing that 40A fuse, you've got a short circuit to find.

I haven't worked on the car since. I'm trying not to let a sniffly nose and raw throat turn into a full blown cold...what with family coming into town for the holiday and all. Last night I opted not to lay around on cold concrete.

For the brakes I'm trying to get some speed bleeders to make sure I've got them bled properly. Problem is, my small town doesn't carry much in the way of metric parts. For anyone reading, four piston calipers on our cars are m8x1.0. I'm assuming the rears are the same.

I'm trying to avoid replacing the master cylinder if I can. Obviously for the work involved, but also for one other reason. I've got a southern vert shell that I very well may be keeping. For now it's been my parts car. I'm giving thought to taking my time with that shell. Giving it a proper paint job and swapping my turbo drivetrain BACK into it. I"ve already taken the clutch hyrdaulics off the shell, less work I create for myself down the road the better.

For the blown fuse. It turned on fine with a flip of the manual override. It stayed running till I turned it off. When the temps started to rise I checked to make sure the fan would turn on with the thermoswitch. I flipped the manual override to make sure it was operational....and got nothing. Temps weren't high enough yet for it to have turned on with the thermoswitch, I was just testing it. That was my cutoff point for cleaning up and heading to dinner. The only thing I did from that point was check the fuse and saw it was blown and bleed some of the air out of the cooling system.

I believe my ground wire for the fan is smallish and that might be causing my problems. The gauge on it is smaller than 10, maybe 12. I'm going to go through the wiring and make sure it's all 10 gauge. Well I probably won't do the thermoswitch wire that big. My understanding is that thermoswitch doesn't need that large.

Pete_89T2

11-22-2011, 11:11 PM

For the brakes I'm trying to get some speed bleeders to make sure I've got them bled properly. Problem is, my small town doesn't carry much in the way of metric parts. For anyone reading, four piston calipers on our cars are m8x1.0. I'm assuming the rears are the same.

Instead of speed bleeders, look up the Motive Power Bleeder and get one of those instead. It's basically a pressure bleeding system. Best under $50 tool that I ever purchased - makes brake bleeding & fluid flushing so easy you'll want to do it just for fun.

For the blown fuse. It turned on fine with a flip of the manual override. It stayed running till I turned it off. When the temps started to rise I checked to make sure the fan would turn on with the thermoswitch. I flipped the manual override to make sure it was operational....and got nothing. Temps weren't high enough yet for it to have turned on with the thermoswitch, I was just testing it. That was my cutoff point for cleaning up and heading to dinner. The only thing I did from that point was check the fuse and saw it was blown and bleed some of the air out of the cooling system.

I believe my ground wire for the fan is smallish and that might be causing my problems. The gauge on it is smaller than 10, maybe 12. I'm going to go through the wiring and make sure it's all 10 gauge. Well I probably won't do the thermoswitch wire that big. My understanding is that thermoswitch doesn't need that large.

With that fuse blowing you have a short. Going back to your schematic, I assume that 40A fuse is between the battery + and the fan + terminals as shown. Somewhere, that current flow is being shunted to ground. Is that wire that says "optiional idle up" currently connected to anything? Maybe it's shorting somewhere in the harness? I don't have the FSM handy at the moment, so I don't know what that ECU pin 1O is supposed to be doing.

http://www.rotarycarclub.com/rotary_forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=11283&stc=1&d=1322020125

JustJeff

11-22-2011, 11:51 PM

Instead of speed bleeders, look up the Motive Power Bleeder and get one of those instead. It's basically a pressure bleeding system. Best under $50 tool that I ever purchased - makes brake bleeding & fluid flushing so easy you'll want to do it just for fun.

I'm hoping to get the bleeders tomorrow on my lunch break and bleed the brakes tomorrow night after work. BUT that bleeder does look pretty nifty, I'll check the shop for one.

With that fuse blowing you have a short. Going back to your schematic, I assume that 40A fuse is between the battery + and the fan + terminals as shown. Somewhere, that current flow is being shunted to ground. Is that wire that says "optiional idle up" currently connected to anything? Maybe it's shorting somewhere in the harness? I don't have the FSM handy at the moment, so I don't know what that ECU pin 1O is supposed to be doing.

http://www.rotarycarclub.com/rotary_forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=11283&stc=1&d=1322020125

I don't have the idle up wired into the ECU yet. I'll eventually do it, but it's not very high on my priority list ATM. The relay is just about new and I believe 40amp. I've got ignition power tapped from one of the green harnesses by the battery. It's either a 4 or 6 pin harness, IIRC.

JustJeff

11-22-2011, 11:53 PM

hehe I guess I need some basic instructions on how to quote in forums....

rotarykev

11-25-2011, 11:07 PM

:hurray:nice work

JustJeff

11-28-2011, 07:07 PM

With that fuse blowing you have a short. Going back to your schematic, I assume that 40A fuse is between the battery + and the fan + terminals as shown. Somewhere, that current flow is being shunted to ground. Is that wire that says "optiional idle up" currently connected to anything? Maybe it's shorting somewhere in the harness? I don't have the FSM handy at the moment, so I don't know what that ECU pin 1O is supposed to be doing.

I worked out the fan issue. It was too small of a fuse I put in there. I had a 30 amp fuse. I put in a 40 amp fuse and haven't had any issues.

JustJeff

11-28-2011, 07:08 PM

:hurray:nice work

Thanks, it'll be nice if I could get the car out of the garage. It idling with an exhaust leak just isn't very rewarding....

I had family in town for the holiday so I haven't done anything with the car.

Pete_89T2

11-28-2011, 08:05 PM

I worked out the fan issue. It was too small of a fuse I put in there. I had a 30 amp fuse. I put in a 40 amp fuse and haven't had any issues.

Good deal, I assumed you had a 40A fuse in there. 30A sounds about right for a fan circuit. Normally you'll want your fuse rated about 10~15% higher than the worst-case current draw your circuit will see in normal operations.

JustJeff

11-29-2011, 12:55 AM

Good deal, I assumed you had a 40A fuse in there. 30A sounds about right for a fan circuit. Normally you'll want your fuse rated about 10~15% higher than the worst-case current draw your circuit will see in normal operations.

I thought I had put a 40 amp in, guess I grabbed the wrong one and hadn't noticed.

JustJeff

12-05-2011, 12:39 AM

Took the time to work on my car this weekend. I have a persistent oil leak. It's somewhere around the oil cooler and hoses. It's either residual oil from when I blew an oil cooler hose. I still have oil on the efan blades and who knows how much on the inside of the fan shroud. It could simply be gravitating down.

http://a2.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/s720x720/376254_2569239864655_1063965498_32544217_173069605 9_n.jpg

Or it could be residual oil from the hose giving out and "sponging" out from some foam along the radiator bracket. I've removed the foam so we'll see if that accomplishes anything.

http://a7.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/s720x720/375438_2569240384668_1063965498_32544219_136673156 1_n.jpg

Or it could be a pin hole in one of my used cooler hoses about to give out. But there isn't any signs of oil pooling in any of the foam protecting the hoses. There isn't any sign or trail of oil telling me where the drips on the bottom of the radiator are originating from.

http://a6.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/s720x720/383161_2569240984683_1063965498_32544222_145084069 7_n.jpg

Any suggestions would be grealy appreciated

JustJeff

12-05-2011, 01:18 AM

I need advice on vacuum routing. I suspect that I have made a mistake routing my vacuum lines. What I've done is kept my vacuum spider but capped off unused hoses.

I haven't been able to get my electric boost gauge wired correctly. Rather than fighting my subpar wiring I bought a cheap mechanical boost gauge as a temp fix and laid it on the windshield so I can see it's readings. What I found is that I have zero vacuum. I've got my MBC set for zero boost. If I raise my RPMs up to 3k I can see a small nudge in the boost. BUT I never see any vacuum at all.

I took the UIM off to investigate. What I'm wondering is what happens if I put the plastic gasket between the throttle body and UIM on backwards? I believe I put it in correctly, but what if? Also, I find it strange that there isn't any gasket or o-ring to seal this. Should I put a thin coat of RTV on it to help seal?

I have it off now, but I had it mounted with this end toward the TB. The port matches the ports on the TB.
http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/s720x720/377887_2569241184688_1063965498_32544223_206152855 4_n.jpg

The other end facing the UIM. The ports match the 3 on each side of the UIM.
http://a7.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/s720x720/377065_2569241584698_1063965498_32544225_179570728 7_n.jpg

I had the intakes powdercoated. To make sure none of the vacuum niples got clogged I took a hose and put it on each nipple and blew through it. They were all free and open. BUT I found this when I blew through the middle front nipple.

http://a5.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/s720x720/384691_2569241864705_1063965498_32544226_424514656 _n.jpg

Oil...so I"m guessing my vacuum routing is wrong. But it also seems like it could have been wrong for some time now. Maybe I'm wrong but should my TB be this coated in oil?

http://a8.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/s720x720/389418_2569243784753_1063965498_32544235_595674969 _n.jpg

http://a6.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/s720x720/390067_2569243904756_1063965498_32544236_41179030_ n.jpg

Middle nipple on the UIM corresponds with the middle steel hose on the spider.
http://a3.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/s720x720/374911_2569242024709_1063965498_32544227_209904191 4_n.jpg

That steel hose eventually ends up at the purge control valve
http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/s720x720/387184_2569242304716_1063965498_32544228_191814460 4_n.jpg

One of the two hoses coming off the purge control valve goes to the middle iron
http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/s720x720/386080_2569242504721_1063965498_32544230_196021352 4_n.jpg

The other I have feeding back into the spider here
http://a5.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/s720x720/383585_2569242864730_1063965498_32544232_367165485 _n.jpg

And then comes back to the bottom steel hose and I have that feeding back into the bottom nipple on the UIM
http://a3.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/s720x720/383949_2569243144737_1063965498_32544233_197123982 1_n.jpg

What have I done wrong?

RETed

12-05-2011, 05:05 AM

I haven't been able to get my electric boost gauge wired correctly. Rather than fighting my subpar wiring I bought a cheap mechanical boost gauge as a temp fix and laid it on the windshield so I can see it's readings. What I found is that I have zero vacuum. I've got my MBC set for zero boost. If I raise my RPMs up to 3k I can see a small nudge in the boost. BUT I never see any vacuum at all.
If you're talking about the MIDDLE fitting on the front of the throttle body...
*This is normal.*
That fitting leads to PRE throttle body, so it will never see vacuum.
It will see boost when the turbo kicks in.

You will only see vacuum if you find a fitting POST throttle body.
The fittings either above or below both go to POST throttle body.

I took the UIM off to investigate. What I'm wondering is what happens if I put the plastic gasket between the throttle body and UIM on backwards? I believe I put it in correctly, but what if? Also, I find it strange that there isn't any gasket or o-ring to seal this. Should I put a thin coat of RTV on it to help seal?
Mazda doesn't do this from the factory.
Although there is a *slight* vacuum leak from this area, I think trying to seal everything with a liquid sealer (i.e. silicone RTV) is more headaches that this is worth.
Specifically, you might end up plugging those little holes for the fittings with RTV...
(Don't ask me how I know this...)

I have it off now, but I had it mounted with this end toward the TB. The port matches the ports on the TB.
If you have this black phenolic spacer on backwards, NONE of the fittings would work.

The other end facing the UIM. The ports match the 3 on each side of the UIM.

I had the intakes powdercoated. To make sure none of the vacuum niples got clogged I took a hose and put it on each nipple and blew through it. They were all free and open. BUT I found this when I blew through the middle front nipple.

Oil...so I"m guessing my vacuum routing is wrong. But it also seems like it could have been wrong for some time now. Maybe I'm wrong but should my TB be this coated in oil?

Middle nipple on the UIM corresponds with the middle steel hose on the spider.

That steel hose eventually ends up at the purge control valve

One of the two hoses coming off the purge control valve goes to the middle iron

The other I have feeding back into the spider here

And then comes back to the bottom steel hose and I have that feeding back into the bottom nipple on the UIM

What have I done wrong?
See above - you did nothing wrong.
That middle fitting is for the emissions system which leads to the purge valve.
It looks like you have everything routed right.
Mazda designed some complicated vacuum control system to suck out vapors from the "crankcase" to be pulled from two different areas of the oil filler pipe depending if the engine was in vacuum or under load with the turbo spooling.
I think it's kinda stupid, but Mazda spent a lot of money figuring all of this out.

As for the gunk on the backside of the throttle plates...
I think yours is a Kouki 13BT?
If so, this is more so...
This is due to reversion of the intake ports.
It's exhaust gases (and other junk) being blown up from the intake ports from inside the engine and emissions.
On Kouki 13BT engines, the secondary ports open up first prior to the primary ports.
This fact allows stuff to blow back up the intact tract and tends to coat the insides of the intake manifolds and backside of the throttle plates.
Again, it's normal.

-Ted

JustJeff

12-05-2011, 07:23 PM

If you're talking about the MIDDLE fitting on the front of the throttle body...
*This is normal.*
That fitting leads to PRE throttle body, so it will never see vacuum.
It will see boost when the turbo kicks in.

You will only see vacuum if you find a fitting POST throttle body.
The fittings either above or below both go to POST throttle body.

See above - you did nothing wrong.
That middle fitting is for the emissions system which leads to the purge valve.
It looks like you have everything routed right.
Mazda designed some complicated vacuum control system to suck out vapors from the "crankcase" to be pulled from two different areas of the oil filler pipe depending if the engine was in vacuum or under load with the turbo spooling.
I think it's kinda stupid, but Mazda spent a lot of money figuring all of this out.

As for the gunk on the backside of the throttle plates...
I think yours is a Kouki 13BT?
If so, this is more so...
This is due to reversion of the intake ports.
It's exhaust gases (and other junk) being blown up from the intake ports from inside the engine and emissions.
On Kouki 13BT engines, the secondary ports open up first prior to the primary ports.
This fact allows stuff to blow back up the intact tract and tends to coat the insides of the intake manifolds and backside of the throttle plates.
Again, it's normal.

-Ted

I'll have to get more detailed info about how I have my vacuum hoses routed. Tomorrow night if I get out of work with enough time to make progress I'll go work on my car. At that time I'll get more detailed info and pics.

What I remember by memory is this:

Front 3 nipples on the UIM

Top = capped off and not used
Middle = goes to the purge control valve
Bottom = comes from the purge control valve

Rear 3 nipples on the UIM

Top = Boost gauge (right now it's connected directly to the mechanical gauge. Normally I have it routed to the electric sender for the Greddy boost gauge.
Middle = IIRC is the larger and goes to the OMP injectors via the splitter. One of my nipples on that splitter broke. I have it plugged and get vacuum/pressure (not sure which) from a different source on either the UIM or LIM. But only for that one OMP injector.
Bottom = Not sure I'd have to see it to know, it is definitely not capped.

For the OEM BOV and pressure sensor I route that from the nipple on the UIM near the BAC...with a splitter of course.

I'll get more detailed info in the next day or so.

JustJeff

12-05-2011, 07:27 PM

See above - you did nothing wrong.
That middle fitting is for the emissions system which leads to the purge valve.
It looks like you have everything routed right.
Mazda designed some complicated vacuum control system to suck out vapors from the "crankcase" to be pulled from two different areas of the oil filler pipe depending if the engine was in vacuum or under load with the turbo spooling.
I think it's kinda stupid, but Mazda spent a lot of money figuring all of this out.

As for the gunk on the backside of the throttle plates...
I think yours is a Kouki 13BT?
If so, this is more so...
This is due to reversion of the intake ports.
It's exhaust gases (and other junk) being blown up from the intake ports from inside the engine and emissions.
On Kouki 13BT engines, the secondary ports open up first prior to the primary ports.
This fact allows stuff to blow back up the intact tract and tends to coat the insides of the intake manifolds and backside of the throttle plates.
Again, it's normal.

-Ted

I do have Kouki 13BT. But just to be clear Zenki is 86-88, Kouki is 89-91?

RETed

12-05-2011, 09:18 PM

I do have Kouki 13BT. But just to be clear Zenki is 86-88, Kouki is 89-91?

Yes, sorry I tend to use the Japan nomenclature more consistently.

"Zenki" = "before" = S4
"Kouki" = "after" = S5

-Ted

Pete_89T2

12-06-2011, 08:44 AM

Rear 3 nipples on the UIM

Middle = IIRC is the larger and goes to the OMP injectors via the splitter. One of my nipples on that splitter broke. I have it plugged and get vacuum/pressure (not sure which) from a different source on either the UIM or LIM. But only for that one OMP injector.

On that larger middle nipple, you're correct that it is supposed to go to the 1-4 splitter, and from there to each OMP injector. If memory serves, that nipple is not vacuum, it's just an air bleed (pre-throttle plates). If the splitter is broke, just get yourself 3 "Y" or "T" style vacuum line fittings and use them to make a functional 1-4 splitter, and connect to each OMP injector. If that one OMP injector you have plumbed solo is getting vacuum instead of pre-throttle air, it may not work properly.

JustJeff

12-06-2011, 03:09 PM

On that larger middle nipple, you're correct that it is supposed to go to the 1-4 splitter, and from there to each OMP injector. If memory serves, that nipple is not vacuum, it's just an air bleed (pre-throttle plates). If the splitter is broke, just get yourself 3 "Y" or "T" style vacuum line fittings and use them to make a functional 1-4 splitter, and connect to each OMP injector. If that one OMP injector you have plumbed solo is getting vacuum instead of pre-throttle air, it may not work properly.

Good to know. I wondered about that and I've kept an eye on the OMP hoses. I rebuilt them with clear teflon hoses and they all have oil traveling through them. When assembling the engine I thought about getting a splitter like you suggested, but I assumed all the nipples on the intakes saw the same pressure and/or vacuum. Apparently I assumed incorrectly and need to do some more reading about emmissions removal and such.

What the OCD person in me wanted to do was to remove the spiders nest entirely and get some metal hoses to connect what I was keeping. I really didn't like the idea of having to track each hose from it's source and risk mistakes on routing them. I may go back to that idea. Get some metal hoses and bend them to route underneath the UIM and TB.

The top rear nipple on the UIM is what I used to route to my boost gauge. The mechanical sees no vacuum. As a side note this might be related. My brakes have been "mushy" since the rebuild. Before it they were good. I've assumed this whole time that either I didn't get all the air out of the lines or that my master cylinder coincedentally went out. Is it possible that I've got a vacuum/pressure issue that is also causing problems with my brake booster? I have the brake booster routed as it normally is. The metal fitting on the LIM to the metal hose on the firewall.

JustJeff

12-10-2011, 01:39 AM

RETed

12-10-2011, 04:46 AM

Something I just thought of. I had my secondary fuel rail powder coated...and there is a pulsation dampener in that rail. Should I be replacing that? Are there any rubber or plastic parts in that dampener?

If you're still running the stock Kouki / S5 fuel rails, then the pulsation damper is integrated into the rail.
I don't think you can buy just the PD from the Mazda dealer.

There is a rubber diaphragm inside the PD itself.

-Ted

Pete_89T2

12-10-2011, 08:51 AM

JustJeff

12-10-2011, 10:29 AM

^That's correct, the S5 fuel rail & PD comes as a single piece, can't take them apart or purchase separately.

I'd be worried about the powder coating process buggering the PD up and making it prone to leak - I believe the powder coat process cooks the parts in an oven at like 400*F? You can reinstall the PD/rails, and before putting the UIM and everything else back on, pressurize the fuel system (jumper the yellow connector by the passenger side strut tower per the FSM) and check for leaks before ordering a new parts.

I've had the car running, but haven't taken it above 3k RPMs. The only leak I've ever seen was simply the front secondary injector not being seated correctly in the o-ring/grommet on the intake. But, I'm guessing that the real test on the dampener is when the secondaries are firing under normal driving conditions.

I was reading last night about banjo bolts and differences between S4 and S5 rails. Also spent a little bit of time reading about difference between rotary dampeners compared to piston engine dampeners. I've got a friend with a S4 TII with a blown engine. I may buy his secondary rail to have as a backup. I was pricing Aeromotive and AEM FPRs last night. You can see where this is leading....but I still need to read more before I can talk intelligently about it.

JustJeff

12-10-2011, 06:54 PM

RETed

12-10-2011, 11:19 PM

Can someone explain the PRC (Pressure Regulator Control)? I've seen some emissions removal that use it and some that do not use it. I have been trying to keep it.

I understand that it sits inline between the LIM and the dampener on the secondary rail. But what exactly does it do? I've seen in the FSM "shuts vacuum between dynamic chamber and pressure regulator"

Orange one?
I have a brief description here:
http://fc3spro.com/TECH/PROBLEMS/EM/solenoids.htm

It's basically for emissions and starting, although IMO it contributes more toward a flooding headache upon hot-start cranking.
Basically what it does is vent the FPR to atmosphere on cranking (hot only?).
This causes the FPR / fuel rails to run at a slightly elevated pressure ~40psi.
(Otherwise, cold-start cranking pressure is around 36 - 38psi.)
Mazda claims this is to combat vapor lock on hot-start.
It causes more fuel to be injected into the engine upon cranking on hot-start.

I will tend to pull all of that emissions crap on most of my customer's cars.
I've personally done it to my FC, and I've never had a problem cranking - hot or cold - as long as the engine has good compression.

-Ted

JustJeff

12-11-2011, 10:44 AM

Orange one?
I have a brief description here:
http://fc3spro.com/TECH/PROBLEMS/EM/solenoids.htm

It's basically for emissions and starting, although IMO it contributes more toward a flooding headache upon hot-start cranking.
Basically what it does is vent the FPR to atmosphere on cranking (hot only?).
This causes the FPR / fuel rails to run at a slightly elevated pressure ~40psi.
(Otherwise, cold-start cranking pressure is around 36 - 38psi.)
Mazda claims this is to combat vapor lock on hot-start.
It causes more fuel to be injected into the engine upon cranking on hot-start.

I will tend to pull all of that emissions crap on most of my customer's cars.
I've personally done it to my FC, and I've never had a problem cranking - hot or cold - as long as the engine has good compression.

-Ted

Thanks again Ted

I've got the UIM back on, but next time I take it off I'll look into removing. What I may do is remove the rats nest, but get some brake hose and bend it for the vacuum and fuel lines that I am using.

Overall I believe I have my vacuum issues worked out. One of the problems I found was that I couldn't find an accurate S5 TII diagram for removal of solenoids. I found plenty of S4 stuff and I even found one claiming to be S5 but it was using the S4 diagram. The most notable difference between the two is the nipple/port on the back of the UIM for the splitter to the OMP/MOP injectors. On S4 it's on the bottom, on S5 it's in the middle. IIRC the S4 also has 4 nipples on the back and the S5 has 3.

I made the mistake of thinking all the nipples on the intakes showed the same pressure/vacuum. This whole time I thought I had the wiring on my electronic boost gauge incorrect because it pegged to zero. It never moved at all. Well I do have my MBC set to go straight to the wastegate. Last night I put another splitter on the nipple under the BAC...WAAA LAAA mechanical boost gauge showed vacuum. Plugged in the electronic boost gauge..WAAA LAAA it's been wired correctly this whole time!!

Still need to work out the warning gauge for oil pressure, but I've got a good idea what I did wrong with that.

JustJeff

12-11-2011, 10:56 AM

Today I'm swapping my Tokico Blues for a friends Tokico Illuminas. Both our sets are practically brand new so I'm swapping him and some cash to have adjustables. They will be paired up with some Tein springs. I'm not as happy as I expected with the Teins. I was driving on them for a month or two before I detonated my engine. The front tires rub on the lowest coil of the springs. Down the road I'll get some RB vert springs, but for now I'd be happy simply driving my car again.

After the springs are done I'm going to be doing the dreaded coolant seal tests. I've already drained the oil to check for coolant in my oil.

Also on the slate for today, testing TPS and CAS, making sure timing is correct, etc.

JustJeff

12-12-2011, 06:41 PM

All I got done yesterday was swapping the Illuminas onto my Tein springs and getting them back on the car. Well that and getting a cold. By the time night time came I was feeling pretty miserable. On the plus side, at least I'm getting sick right now and not over Xmas and New Years Eve.

JustJeff

01-04-2012, 08:36 PM

After a monster flu bug and Christmas craziness I've finally gotten back to work on my car.

Got the car back to where it was a long time ago. Car starts up fine, idles nice and even. BUT it still has an exhaust leak. Or what I assume is an exhaust leak because I can't find anything else. IT also has an annoying high pitch noise on the passenger side. I suspect it's the BAC valve. I'll put in some time testing the BAC...maybe even get a video of the sound to get some opinions.

I may take it to an exhaust shop and let them put it on lifts, give my exhaust a clean bill of health and while at it have them bend my hangers on my RB exhaust. I have the typical driver side uneven hang on my mufflers.

I've still got a couple little issues that may or may not be exhaust leak related. I get a nice loud backfire on deceleration. I did remove the dashpot and put it back on. So it may need adjusting. I've also got a dead spot on my TPS when testing resistance while going closed to WOT. I'm going by memory on the FSM Ohms for TPS. For narrow range I have a nice solid reading from .8 to about somewhere around 2.0-3.0 then it hits a dead spot and pics back up for 4.0-6.0 for WOT. Full range seems fine.

JustJeff

01-06-2012, 08:46 AM

Got some video, is the ticking the BAC?
9IP8wRGjw0c&context=C389eeaaADOEgsToPDskKSI69HZwXdJ2wC5QVS6xWR

JustJeff

01-07-2012, 06:52 PM

I'm proud to say that almost all the car's bugs have apparently been addressed!!??!!

I have apparently found my exhaust leak. The exhaust still sounds a little pooty, but I'm wanting to take it to a shop and have them hang the exhaust properly. I have the typical RB driver side tailpipe hanging lower than passenger side. While bending the hangers hopefully than can tighten things back up better than I could.

I have also apparently found why my engine was not idling properly. Part of it was the TPS needing adjusting. The other part was apparently a noob timing issue. I was not stabbing the CAS with the yellow(leading?) mark set on the front cover pin.

I do have some small issues to address still. Brakes are still squishy. I'm going to pull the master cylinder off my other vert tonight and tomorrow.

Also my speedometer cable pulled out from the instrument panel while I was connecting it to the transmission. What happened was the actual cable pulled out from within sleeve. I'm hoping I can simply pull the instrument cluster and simply reattach it. I had to swap mine years ago and remember it being a PITA to snake the thing up through dash.

Prosport oil pressure gauge still reads nothing. I've removed it and don't know what to do with it other than beat it with a hammer.

Hopefully I don't get any surprises tomorrow, but so far I couldn't be happier:icon_tup:

Gregory Casimir

02-27-2012, 10:22 PM

so how is the car so far dude?

JustJeff

02-28-2012, 07:48 PM

so how is the car so far dude?

Good timing, I was just getting ready to post some pics. The car has sat in a garage for many many months and I haven't had time to give the car the buff and wax it deserves. I did have time to take the car through a car wash over my lunch break.

Here is a pictorial. I've got Tein springs on it with Tokico Illuminas. I need to replace two of the tires. I'd love to put new rims on it, but I just can't part with the 12lb OEMs.

Top will need replaced, but that's low on my list right now.
http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/s720x720/428298_3147409638538_1063965498_32758103_207824692 3_n.jpg

Not a very good pic, but you get the idea
http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/s720x720/426374_3147410238553_1063965498_32758104_138015244 2_n.jpg

Havne't had the hangers bent yet.
http://a7.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/s720x720/404331_3147410958571_1063965498_32758105_111074082 0_n.jpg

http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/s720x720/430575_3147411238578_1063965498_32758106_115652741 6_n.jpg

140amp modified alternator I got off of eBay...nice find for $145 and a one year warranty. That allowed me to loose the FD alternator. I hated using that thing. It didn't fit under my TMIC. The padding under the TMIC is me trying to dampen rattling of the FD alt on the TMIC...just haven't removed it yet.
http://a3.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/s720x720/421010_3147411758591_1063965498_32758107_151450419 4_n.jpg

Turbo blanket fit on just fine. It did get beat up replacing exhaust gaskets...but it's an engine, it's to be expected.
http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/s720x720/424090_3147412078599_1063965498_32758108_155738750 3_n.jpg

Taurus e-fan. I've got the relay mounted under the radiator panel and am only using low speed on it. What I may do come summer time is wire my manual switch into high speed.
http://a7.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/s720x720/432333_3147413038623_1063965498_32758111_799467139 _n.jpg

JustJeff

02-28-2012, 08:17 PM

Mechanical updates:

I'm driving the car daily and it has just about 300 miles on it. It never misses when turning over, though it will stall some until it's warmed up. Hopefully that falls away during break in and warmer weather coming. My understanding is that stalling and flooding are normal during break in. I've got the MBC set to zero boost.

I can't figure out the pooty exhaust and it's really bothering me. I took it to the shop so they could put it on the lift and check for leaks and they found none. I also had them bleed the breaks, hoping they could get some air out that I wasn't able to. They gave it back to me with no charge and the owner called me a few days later to ask if the brakes were any better. He said they got some air out of the rear brakes but not a lot. They are still softer than they used to be. I drove my fathers n/a vert the other day as a comparison and his are noticeably stronger. I"m thinking maybe the brake booster?

The OEM volt meter has been showing overcharging by a little bit. The n/a engine was doing the same thing before the swap and I was hoping new drivetrain would fix the problem. It did not. I replaced the alternator with a modded 140amp S5 alternator. It's been on for about a week now. It helps greatly with the Taurus fan.

BUT I have a whole assortment of electrical problems:

OEM gauge is still showing some overcharging
lights are dimming and brightening with RPMs
My rear defroster is working sporadically. Most times the button indicator does not illuminate and it never comes on. BUT sometimes it will come on just fine.
Greddy boost gauge mysteriously stopped reading. It illuminates fine, but never reads anythign but zero. Just to be clear, it's not showing vacuum either...doesn't even go through opening ceremony. I checked the wiring. I tried ground directly to the battery and no change.
My Prosport pressure gauge has never worked and acts identically to how the Greddy is now. It will illuminate but never shows any reading other than zero. The Prosport will go through opening ceremony but stays pegged at zero afterwards.
Previous to the swap the dome light was most often not working... that is still the case.
One very strange thing happened. I plugged my phone car charger in..just the USB adapter with nothing plugged in. Engine wasn't running, I don't think the keys were even in the ignition. When I plug it in my car gave an electrical beep. I take it out and plug it back in and it beeps again. I'm watching the idiot cluster and my alarm indicator starts blinking and my OEM alarm goes off. I have a new CPU from Mazdatrix so I doubt it's that.

I haven't decided what to do about the electrical problems yet. I'm thinking I'm going to replace all the battery wiring with new. In my previous turbo swap I had a decent sized stereo and associated upgraded wiring that was run parallel to OEM wiring. In this case I'm very tempted to simply remove the battery ground through to the starter/engine and replace with great big ground. Also I'd like to replace the + battery to B terminal on the alternator and the + battery terminal to main fuse box in engine compartment. Essentially replace the OEM wiring with Big 3 upgraded wiring.

That won't solve most of the electrical problems I listed, but it's a starting point and something I'd like to do in prep for putting more stereo equipment. I assume the electrical problems is simply going to be checking grounds and looking for shorts....which I know NOTHING about.

Other than the electrical list and the pooty exhaust I have no complaints. My fears of coolant seal leak I think are simple paranoia. I'm not loosing any coolant...so far.

I'll post some about the body panels being painted a little later or tomorrow....gotta leave to meet the paint guy and get an estimate.

JustJeff

03-12-2012, 11:58 PM

Updates

I FOUND MY IDLE/EXHAUST PROBLEM!!!! It was a combination of fouled plugs on the front rotor and my spark plug wire on the front leading plug was seemingly sitting prettly loose on the plug.

I was doing my 500 mile oil change tonight and figure I'd change the plugs too. I must have pulled the plug boot loose while running gauge, efan, and power cable for my stereo and alarm. It was on but not very well. The engine purred beautifully after changing the plugs.

I also believe I have worked out my efan problems. I've read that ATC fuses aren't the best and that fuse links are better because they aren't as susceptible to blowing during the initial current flow. My main fuse bank/distribution in the engine compartment has an open and unused spot. However the male spade on the bottom is much too wide for anything I could buy over the counter. I used my dremel to grind that spade down so it would fit an over the counter 10ga female spade. I had to cut that opening off of the harness because the spade would not insert into the harness. That work was done over the weekend and so far it's smooth sailing with the efan.

Still haven't done anything about paint. The next week is very busy between work and a family reunion. Hopefully next week I can schedule something with the paint guy. He said he'd need the parts for a week or so.

JustJeff

05-27-2012, 07:58 AM

I'm having overheating issues with the engine. I'm using a Taurus efan and Starion thermoswitch in factory location on the back of the water pump housing. Starion switch IIRC is a 195 on and 185 off. I also have a manual on switch wired to cockpit of the car. Fan seems to be working perfectly. I have it wired directly into the main fuselink in the engine compartment on the low setting. I have it setup so that I can swap between to high setting by simply unplugging the low spade terminal and plugging in the high.

Here is what I've noticed so far with normal driving (not driving it hard as I'm still breaking in the engine). Temps will keeping rising and rising and when they start to pass 220 I'll pull the car over and either let it idle with the efan running and hood up or turn off the engine but let the efan run and every so often turn the engine on to cycle what is in the radiator back into the engine.

Here are the contributing factors I've tried to narrow down so far:

Put in a new thermostat and while doing that changed to a different used, but working water pump. (It was working fine last time I used it, can mechanical pumps fail?)
N/A hood was being used. While I've been driving to avoid boost as much as possible. The Hallman MBC is set to zero boost, but I need to watch how I'm driving. The OEM wastegate simply can't fully bypass. I thought that perhaps because the MBC was not allowing the engine to be in vacuum that it was contributing to heat. By that I mean it may be purging as much of the pressure as it can, it's also trying to keep pressure at zero. That perhaps rather than having vacuum having zero pressure is still pressurized compared to vacuum and thus creates heat. That theory was partially blown out of the water, I put a turbo hood on it yesterday hoping to see lower temps...and did not. (Before it is said, I'm using N/A hood until I get paint work done on the turbo hood and other parts. I keep thinking paint is going to happen and it hasn't yet.)

Other than obvious things where can I start looking for a cure?

Flushing radiator and cooling system. Should I flush the heater core seperately?
Testing the radiator cap. What pressure cap should a S5 13B T have?
Possibly a clogged oil cooler?
I have air pump removed and so far only a single belt alt pulley. I had a dual belt pulley with my last alt but usually only used one because of belt slipping. Never had issues with heating.

The engine parts and car did sit for almost a year while the rebuild happened. Is it possible I've got a clogged cooling system or oil cooler? I have both oil and water temp gauges and oil temps seem to be where they should be.

RETed

05-27-2012, 08:46 AM

I'm having overheating issues with the engine.
Is this something that just started to happen?
Was the system working fine prior to this?
Any changes to the cooling system?

Here is what I've noticed so far with normal driving (not driving it hard as I'm still breaking in the engine). Temps will keeping rising and rising and when they start to pass 220 I'll pull the car over and either let it idle with the efan running and hood up or turn off the engine but let the efan run and every so often turn the engine on to cycle what is in the radiator back into the engine.
Just to eliminate the obvious...
Is the fan pulling air in the correct direction?

N/A hood was being used. While I've been driving to avoid boost as much as possible. The Hallman MBC is set to zero boost, but I need to watch how I'm driving. The OEM wastegate simply can't fully bypass. I thought that perhaps because the MBC was not allowing the engine to be in vacuum that it was contributing to heat. By that I mean it may be purging as much of the pressure as it can, it's also trying to keep pressure at zero. That perhaps rather than having vacuum having zero pressure is still pressurized compared to vacuum and thus creates heat. That theory was partially blown out of the water, I put a turbo hood on it yesterday hoping to see lower temps...and did not. (Before it is said, I'm using N/A hood until I get paint work done on the turbo hood and other parts. I keep thinking paint is going to happen and it hasn't yet.)

Just a side note...
Any type of boost control is going to end up as a bleed-off system
This means that it's next to impossible to get the boost to "zero".
You can only adjust boost down to the base spring pressure - which is most cases is going to be about 7psi - 10psi on an FC turbo with an open exhaust.

Other than obvious things where can I start looking for a cure?

Flushing radiator and cooling system. Should I flush the heater core seperately?
Testing the radiator cap. What pressure cap should a S5 13B T have?
Possibly a clogged oil cooler?
I have air pump removed and so far only a single belt alt pulley. I had a dual belt pulley with my last alt but usually only used one because of belt slipping. Never had issues with heating.

Check to see if the radiator is OK:
Get engine warmed up and then check the entire area of the radiator core to see if heat is even; if there are localized spots that are cooler, you have a bad radiator (core).
Stock rated radiator cap is for about 0.9 bar or about 13psi.
I doubt the problem is with the oil system or the oil cooler - do you have an oil temp or oil pressure gauge?

Any reason you're not running double belts?
You really should be running two.
At low RPM's (under 3kRPM), the belt should not be slipping.
If the belt is slipping, it'll be obvious - you can see the pulley slip, and / or hear it slip.
You might also see a lot of excess black dust around the area of the pulleys where the belt is disintegrating.

-Ted

JustJeff

05-28-2012, 05:28 PM

Is this something that just started to happen?
Was the system working fine prior to this?
Any changes to the cooling system?

Just to eliminate the obvious...
Is the fan pulling air in the correct direction?

Just a side note...
Any type of boost control is going to end up as a bleed-off system
This means that it's next to impossible to get the boost to "zero".
You can only adjust boost down to the base spring pressure - which is most cases is going to be about 7psi - 10psi on an FC turbo with an open exhaust.

Check to see if the radiator is OK:
Get engine warmed up and then check the entire area of the radiator core to see if heat is even; if there are localized spots that are cooler, you have a bad radiator (core).
Stock rated radiator cap is for about 0.9 bar or about 13psi.
I doubt the problem is with the oil system or the oil cooler - do you have an oil temp or oil pressure gauge?

Any reason you're not running double belts?
You really should be running two.
At low RPM's (under 3kRPM), the belt should not be slipping.
If the belt is slipping, it'll be obvious - you can see the pulley slip, and / or hear it slip.
You might also see a lot of excess black dust around the area of the pulleys where the belt is disintegrating.

-Ted

The heating issue has been going on since rebuild was completed. I've noticed it more because I have been driving it further distances...before the car would drive to get errands. Maybe 10 min drive tops with intervals as long as half hour between the next destination. I was having issues with the efan blowing fuses so I thought temps were related to the fan going out on me. Efan wiring has been corrected, it is working as it should..and pulling air through the radiator.

I've had it parked for about a month now. Not related to heat issues, but I sent my injectors off to be cleaned and have in general been tired of working on it....so it sat.

I'm going to try a yoohoo belt and see what that does for temps. I'm not sure if I have slipping or not. The engine does make a noise it did not previously...but doesn't really sound like belt slipping. I previously had an FD alt and dual pulley. I could never get a matched pair that actually matched...I know slipping sound and this isn't quite it. It's almost like a chirping noise...which could be mild slipping and might only effect things once it's NOT idling.

I do not see it slipping, or have any dust, etc.

Reason I don't have dual belts is because I just got the 140 amp S5 alt and have not sourced one yet. I know the obvious places to get them, BUT I'm wanting to get an overdrive pulley. Yes, overdrive. The modded alt only sees 14v when rpms are above 1k or so. I'd like to find a dual pulley a little bit smaller than stock. Just haven't had time to research and find one.

One factor I had not considered before my post. I had the pulleys powder coated. I would not be at all surprised if that is a factor in slipping. I have a yoohoo belt ordered from Napa. I have read the arguments for and against. My plan is to see if single belt is a factor with my problem. If I have to I'll get an OEM sized dual pulley, but like I said I'd prefer overdrive so charging at idle. I'll report back findings.

I'll also be buying a temp gun to test my radiator...see if I have even temps.

For the oil cooler and such. I do have both aftermarket temp and pressure gauges. The pressure gauge I bought used and I think they gave me the wrong sender. According to tech support the gauge is registering that it is not plugged into the sender...but it is. The craptastic OEM pressure gauge reads about normal and the same as pre-rebuild. Oil temps seem normal. They rise slower than water. I'm not sure numbers off the top of my head, but it never struck me as out of line. Next time I'm driving it I'll get some numbers for both.

reddozen

05-29-2012, 07:34 AM

lol... nice engine... looks very familiar...

http://www.diviniaro.com/files/car/IMAG0036.jpg

JustJeff

06-04-2012, 10:30 PM

Reporting back:

Got a dual belt pulley on over the weekend and took the car for a drive tonight. Obviously it's much cooler tonight than it was Memorial weekend (100°). It took much much longer to heat up and was cooling down with the efan blowing at lights. BUT temps did get up to just below 220°.

Oil temps seemed about normal at 200° and pressure seemed normal at between like 30psi and 60psi.

I've checked my radiator hoses they aren't collapsing.
I did what I could to test for cold spots on the radiator but did not have time to take the undertray off and feel the front of the radiator. I simply stuck my hand between fan blades and felt with my fingers...all the spots I could check seemed the same temp.
The top passenger corner of the fan shroud does not sit snuggly at all. I can pull it off the radiator by about 1/3 of an inch. I'll resecure that, but I wouldn't think it would have that much of an effect.
I'll go through and put some foam around oil cooler, condensor and radiator...just to make sure.

One thing I'm curious about is my oil cooler. It seems like I have a pinhole somewhere in the oil cooler. I keep finding oil pooling up on the bottom of the radiator and in other strange places around the oil cooler. I had a failure on one of my oil cooler hoses on one of my first drives after rebuild. It created a fountain of oil. I had thought that oil on the bottom of the radiator was simply gravity from me not being able to get the oil cleaned up off of everything (ie: fan blades, fan shroud, etc). Reason I bring this up is I'm curious if I do have a pinhole and I am loosing hot oil..and it happens to be on the radiator fins...seems like that could cause the radiator to not cool as well. Any opinions on this would be greatly appreciated.

GySgtFrank

06-04-2012, 10:38 PM

One thing I'm curious about is my oil cooler. It seems like I have a pinhole somewhere in the oil cooler. I keep finding oil pooling up on the bottom of the radiator and in other strange places around the oil cooler. I had a failure on one of my oil cooler hoses on one of my first drives after rebuild. It created a fountain of oil. I had thought that oil on the bottom of the radiator was simply gravity from me not being able to get the oil cleaned up off of everything (ie: fan blades, fan shroud, etc). Reason I bring this up is I'm curious if I do have a pinhole and I am loosing hot oil..and it happens to be on the radiator fins...seems like that could cause the radiator to not cool as well. Any opinions on this would be greatly appreciated.

I had a similar problem with oil on the bottom of the radiator. It turned out to be that the crush washers weren't sealing. It only showed up when the oil pressure came up. The washers are supposed to be replaced any time you crack the hose loose.

JustJeff

06-05-2012, 06:28 PM

I had a similar problem with oil on the bottom of the radiator. It turned out to be that the crush washers weren't sealing. It only showed up when the oil pressure came up. The washers are supposed to be replaced any time you crack the hose loose.

Thanks for the heads up. I did not replace them when I replaced the leaking hose. I don't remember if I replaced them when I did my rebuild. New ones sounds like a good starting point.

Pete_89T2

06-05-2012, 06:43 PM

Thanks for the heads up. I did not replace them when I replaced the leaking hose. I don't remember if I replaced them when I did my rebuild. New ones sounds like a good starting point.

You'll also want to be careful not to overtighten those banjo bolts on the cooler. If you do, the result is often a hairline crack in the oil cooler where the theaded hole is machined, which causes a leak.

JustJeff

06-22-2012, 09:33 PM

Need some electrical advice.

Is it possible for my efan to be pulling air on low, but pushing air on high? It's a 3 wire taurus efan. I have not been using high setting until this past weekend. I noticed it tonight because I was testing my fans. I have a spare and was swapping the wiring on the car to test to see if my spare one also caused the my 40amp reseting circuit breaker to trip. It was not so I switched back to my mounted fan. I had the car idling and efan on highbwith a manual switch. I wanted to check my battery with my multitester to see what high was doing to my battery. I had air blowing out from the bumper grill onto my shins and feet. With the engine still running I swapped the wiring to the low and the fan direction changed directions.

I've been told this is not possible...but I saw it with my own eyes....felt it with my own shins.

GySgtFrank

06-22-2012, 10:14 PM

Pete_89T2

06-23-2012, 07:53 AM

Any DC motor only needs 2 teminals to run - a positive (+) and negitive (-). Reverse those two and the direction the motor spins changes. Based on what you're seeing, once verifed as Gunny suggests, your wiring must be switching polarity somehow.

Do you have a electrical schematic diagram of the Taurus fan motor assembly or can you draw one up from what you've got? Any relays and resistors in there? When it was installed in a Taurus, was the fan motor grounded to the car's body/engine, or was it a floating ground due to it being mounted on rubber isolators/plastic? We'll need this type of info to steer you in the right direction.

JustJeff

06-23-2012, 09:48 AM

If the fan is having to be dragged to a stop and reverse directions that would explain blowing a 40A circuit breaker. Check to see if in fact the fan blade is reversing direction from low to high. if so does the spare fan do this too? If it does, there is something going on with the way it's wired. If it doesn't there is something internal to the fan that is truly screwy.

I don't have both high and low speeds setup on individual switches. I have both high and low with spade terminals and I switch them out. Was going to keep it that way temporarily...till I work out my issues. That being said, it wasn't switching from low to high. I manually/physically switch them. It's on high and while driving that on high the circuit breaker trips. I haven't been able to recreate the problem while idling and working on the car. BUT once it starts doing it (while driving) it will continue to do it while idling. I simply have not been able to get it to start doing it while idling.

Any DC motor only needs 2 teminals to run - a positive (+) and negitive (-). Reverse those two and the direction the motor spins changes. Based on what you're seeing, once verifed as Gunny suggests, your wiring must be switching polarity somehow.

Do you have a electrical schematic diagram of the Taurus fan motor assembly or can you draw one up from what you've got? Any relays and resistors in there? When it was installed in a Taurus, was the fan motor grounded to the car's body/engine, or was it a floating ground due to it being mounted on rubber isolators/plastic? We'll need this type of info to steer you in the right direction.

Excellent point on the diagram. I do have one buried in this thread. I gotta head to work (half day on Sat. cause I took time off this week), but I'll post up the diagram once I get to work.

It can only be two things. Either my wiring is wrong ie: did not follow diagram correctly or the fan is faulty. My plan after work is to dig into my wiring.

It's just very odd that on one speed it spins correctly and on the other it doesn't. I'd think it would have to be consistent direction on both.

JustJeff

06-23-2012, 12:27 PM

GySgtFrank

06-23-2012, 12:58 PM

(re: tripping 40A breaker) It sounds like a faulty fan to me. When under load something is overheating (board warpage?) and doesn't quit until it cools down enough. Just my WAG. I had a Ford ignition module do this to me once and it drove me crazy until I finally found it. It would test fine when cooled off. Wiring? on fan reversal.

Pete_89T2

06-24-2012, 08:30 AM

Here is the diagram

http://www.rotarycarclub.com/rotary_forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=11283&stc=1&d=1322020125

I have not added the idle up yet. It can only be one of two things. Either my wiring isn't following the diagram, or the fan is faulty.

Maybe I'm missing something from an earlier post. Your schematic diagram shows a 2 wire fan motor (just + and - terminals), but you also said it was a 3 wire Taurus fan. Where is the 3rd wire in this diagram, and is this motor grounded or does it have a floating ground?

JustJeff

06-24-2012, 10:08 AM

Maybe I'm missing something from an earlier post. Your schematic diagram shows a 2 wire fan motor (just + and - terminals), but you also said it was a 3 wire Taurus fan. Where is the 3rd wire in this diagram, and is this motor grounded or does it have a floating ground?

Sounds like I might have assumed too much. I assumed difference between 2 wire and 3 wire Taurus fans was that 2 wire was 1 speed and 3 wire was 2 speed. I also assumed that for my 3 wire fan that I had one common ground and 2 different +. + for low and + for high. I assumed that the diagram was for either high or low, but not for both. I physically swap wires to go from high to low. I never have all 3 wires connected at one time. I also assumed the ground was common (to engine, chasis, etc), but I don't really understand floating grounds. I've done some light reading and so far it escapes me. My best understanding of floating grounds are car speakers. Each speaker is not grounded to the chasis. They are grounded via the amp.

It's been a while since the car has been sitting and I wired in the fan and relay. I'll let you know where the fan is grounded a little later today/tonight...after I dig into the wiring.

Pete_89T2

06-24-2012, 11:05 AM

Sounds like I might have assumed too much. I assumed difference between 2 wire and 3 wire Taurus fans was that 2 wire was 1 speed and 3 wire was 2 speed. I also assumed that for my 3 wire fan that I had one common ground and 2 different +. + for low and + for high. I assumed that the diagram was for either high or low, but not for both. I physically swap wires to go from high to low. I never have all 3 wires connected at one time. I also assumed the ground was common (to engine, chasis, etc), but I don't really understand floating grounds. I've done some light reading and so far it escapes me. My best understanding of floating grounds are car speakers. Each speaker is not grounded to the chasis. They are grounded via the amp.

It's been a while since the car has been sitting and I wired in the fan and relay. I'll let you know where the fan is grounded a little later today/tonight...after I dig into the wiring.

Found this Taurus e-fan wiring diagram with a little googling on a DSM forum

http://www.rotarycarclub.com/rotary_forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=12076&stc=1&d=1340552167

If this diagram is correct, the fan body provides the ground (-) return, and there are 2 other wires - a high & low speed (+). Here it's rigged up so that whenever the switched +12V is on, and the "temp probe switch" is closed, the fan runs at low speed, and when the "AC Clutch wire" is providing +12V, that 2nd relay switches the fan to high speed. Note also they mention the high current draw when the fan starts up on high, and they recommend using a 75A relay, and the fuse to the battery is a 50-70A, and "normal" current draw on high speed is ~34A! Sounds like an alternator upgrade will be in order if you still have a stock FC alternator in there.

RETed

06-24-2012, 11:31 AM

I just want to comment on the current draw #'s...

Holy soda crackers Batman!
Trying to find a 75A+ relay is encroaching on the realm of "soleniods."
It's going to be difficult to find a quality relay rated that high from most common electronics parts vendors.
If you do find one, I'd bet it'll be pretty expensive too?

I was looking around for a 50A rated relay recently, and I ended up with an NTE one (Made in China) for about $10.

34A of current is a lot of juice for a single fan.
I'm sure there's other, aftermarket fans that'll run almost the same airflow for less current - i.e. more efficient.
We're talking minimum wire thickness at least 10AWG...8AWG?
Of course, you can't beat the price of a used fan...
But it looks at this point that the fan is faulty, so gambling with used equipment comes into play now.

-Ted

JustJeff

06-24-2012, 01:12 PM

Took a break from being in the garage. I googled 3 pin taurus also and came up with this

http://www.astrosafari.com/viewtopic.php?f=76&t=14220

http://digitalcartography.com/n0eq/astro/Dorman-620-101-009-CONNECTOR-COLORS-verified.jpg

What I need to find out is if the diagram and fan I'm using is as simple as keeping just high or low, but not both. Gonna go out to the garage and verify that my fan pin out is the same.

JustJeff

06-24-2012, 01:21 PM

Found this Taurus e-fan wiring diagram with a little googling on a DSM forum

http://www.rotarycarclub.com/rotary_forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=12076&stc=1&d=1340552167

If this diagram is correct, the fan body provides the ground (-) return, and there are 2 other wires - a high & low speed (+). Here it's rigged up so that whenever the switched +12V is on, and the "temp probe switch" is closed, the fan runs at low speed, and when the "AC Clutch wire" is providing +12V, that 2nd relay switches the fan to high speed. Note also they mention the high current draw when the fan starts up on high, and they recommend using a 75A relay, and the fuse to the battery is a 50-70A, and "normal" current draw on high speed is ~34A! Sounds like an alternator upgrade will be in order if you still have a stock FC alternator in there.

I've got a modded S5 alt (140amps). Looks like the diagram you provided works off of one temp switch, but both high and low are wired into the diagram.

I'm content using either high or low. I don't really want to mess around with finding a location for a second temp switch. Is the diagram I was using ok, provided I have correct wires for ground, low+, and high+?

I just want to comment on the current draw #'s...

Holy soda crackers Batman!
Trying to find a 75A+ relay is encroaching on the realm of "soleniods."
It's going to be difficult to find a quality relay rated that high from most common electronics parts vendors.
If you do find one, I'd bet it'll be pretty expensive too?

I was looking around for a 50A rated relay recently, and I ended up with an NTE one (Made in China) for about $10.

34A of current is a lot of juice for a single fan.
I'm sure there's other, aftermarket fans that'll run almost the same airflow for less current - i.e. more efficient.
We're talking minimum wire thickness at least 10AWG...8AWG?
Of course, you can't beat the price of a used fan...
But it looks at this point that the fan is faulty, so gambling with used equipment comes into play now.

-Ted

I had the same problem finding a 50A relay. No one in town has one... I'm using a 40A relay now..which I thought would be ok. I got annoyed and put 10AWG wiring all around for the fan, relay, manual switch.

I don't know that the fan is faulty. I was playing around with both my fans today (mounted and spare). They both behave the same way. They both pull air on low and push air on high. That leads me to believe that the problem is not the fans...but user error instead.

Pete_89T2

06-24-2012, 02:33 PM

I've got a modded S5 alt (140amps). Looks like the diagram you provided works off of one temp switch, but both high and low are wired into the diagram.

I'm content using either high or low. I don't really want to mess around with finding a location for a second temp switch. Is the diagram I was using ok, provided I have correct wires for ground, low+, and high+?

If you're content to run at one speed, the wiring diagram you have should work, provided you find the correct ground wire. BTW, where did you get your S5 alternator modded to crank out 140A? Who does this and what does it cost?

I had the same problem finding a 50A relay. No one in town has one... I'm using a 40A relay now..which I thought would be ok. I got annoyed and put 10AWG wiring all around for the fan, relay, manual switch.

I don't know that the fan is faulty. I was playing around with both my fans today (mounted and spare). They both behave the same way. They both pull air on low and push air on high. That leads me to believe that the problem is not the fans...but user error instead.

Yup, I'm pretty sure you've got your ground wire mixed up with one of the high or low speed + terminals.

JustJeff

06-24-2012, 03:50 PM

If you're content to run at one speed, the wiring diagram you have should work, provided you find the correct ground wire. BTW, where did you get your S5 alternator modded to crank out 140A? Who does this and what does it cost?

Yup, I'm pretty sure you've got your ground wire mixed up with one of the high or low speed + terminals.

I'm content with it that way for now. Once I've worked all the bugs out and am driving my rebuild regularly and reliably (ie: have worked out my fan issue and running hot issue) I'll go back and add features.

I got the alt off of ebay
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1990-Mazda-RX7-R-2-1-3L-non-Turbo-Alternator-140Amps-/190508701713?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item2c5b341811&vxp=mtr

One year warranty on their work and so far I've only had typical modded alt issues. There is talk about this over on the evil forum, but here is my best explanation of it. Because the alt is wound with higher gauge wire it needs to spin faster to reach 14v and recharging. So at idle it does not charge at 14v. As soon as idle hits even 1k it jumps up to 14v. So sitting at a light your battery is draining. Add a big drain like this monster efan and it does make me nervous. BUT I prefer this to not being able to fit a Taurus alt or even an FD alt under my TMIC.

And yes, my wiring was screwed up. I had ground going to fused constant. I have everything put back together and am about to take it around the block a few times and see if I throw the circuit breaker.

As a sidenote, the 3 pin wiring is very odd on this fan. I spent far too much time playing with the wires and a spare battery and seeing what the different combinations of wires did to my spare fan. Some combinations of wires using the low pin did create the correct direction (pull), but it didn't seem as strong as the correct low. I'm hoping that my faulty wiring is the cause of my overheating and blowing fuses. I will take a drive in summer heat and be in good shape....we shall see.

Well, it's not exactly conclusive...but temps drop like they should. I got temps up to 200ish going around the block. Once it was up to 190ish I brought it home and popped the hood. Used my temp gun cause I want to see when the fan switch is activating. Fan triggers on at 200. It turns off at around 185-190. Once I had the fan running and temps up to 200 I took it back out for a drive. The circuit never tripped (that I noticed). Temps dropped and it turned off. I was only driving around the block (had to leave for family dinner at my sister's). So I couldn't really drive it and test it. BUT I turned the fan home for the rest of the drive back to the garage and it the circuit never tripped. The whole trip temps never got about 205ish.....hopefully I have found my fix.

incubus

07-31-2012, 02:04 PM

Any new news with this?

JustJeff

08-24-2012, 12:22 PM

I've been away from the car and site for some time. It appears that in the process of working out my efan I overheated the engine. It has all the signs of coolant seal leak. Had to start after it's been warmed up. White and sweet exhaust on start up. Fouled plugs.

It's been so hot out that I haven't felt like working on it. Now that it's cooled off some I'll start addressing some issues.

I did pick some a pair of Crown Vic wheels. The paint on them is gorgeous and near perfect. I'm in the process of stripping the lips so that I can polish them. Though I'm not really in a rush to get it done.

4port

08-28-2012, 07:33 PM

nice work

JustJeff

12-12-2012, 04:27 PM

The engine is being re-rebuilt to fix the coolant seal leak. The engine has about 2k on the break-in of 4k because I replaced the stat gear bearings. I'll start getting the engine ready to pull very soon.

Here is my shopping list thus far, let me know if I'm missing anything:

O-ring kit, there is a more expensive one but I believe this one has everything I'll need
http://atkinsrotary.com/store/89-92-Turbo-Rx7-O-Ring-Kit-N370-10-S60.html (http://atkinsrotary.com/store/89-92-Turbo-Rx7-O-Ring-Kit-N370-10-S60.html)

Front gasket cover, though I may do the RX-8 modded cover. There is always the chance that I botch the modded RX-8 gasket. Trying to decide if I want to add variables where they are not really needed.
http://atkinsrotary.com/store/86-92-Rx7-Front-Cover-Gasket-N386-10-502.html

Oil pan gasket
http://atkinsrotary.com/store/86-92-Rx7-Oil-Pan-Gasket-N3Y0-10-427.html

I'd like opinions on whether to replace my exhaust gaskets, both engine to manifold and manifold to turbo. I put new ones on shortly after my rebuild so they have less than 2k miles on them.

RETed

12-13-2012, 09:29 AM

Sorry to hear it didn't end well...

Yeah, just need to replace the soft seals.
The metal (exhaust) gaskets can be reused.
As long as there is no signs of cracking on the inside edges, the metal gaskets are fine to reuse.

-Ted

JustJeff

12-15-2012, 02:44 PM

^ Thanks Ted
The problems were my own dumb fault. I didn't setup my efan properly and it cost me. Lesson learned.

I need to test a few things before I pull the engine. The engine started behaving strangely in that it bogs down when boost pressure builds. The more quickly boost is building the worse it bogs down. However this is a sudden change. It was building what boost I'd allow the engine to see just fine. I've got my MBC set to zero so it's purging as much pressure as the wastegate will allow. It never had this problem till just recently and suddenly.

I'm hoping it's fouled plugs. My plugs are fouling so the engine runs great when fresh ones are put in and within a couple weeks you can hear and feel a change in the engine as they foul. Any other thoughts on what it could be? TPS, timing...anything else anyone can think of?

Other little things I've thought of for my shopping list:
Because I'd rather replace the $3 part than pull my oil pan
http://atkinsrotary.com/store/70-95-Oil-Pick-Up-Tube-Gasket-0810-14-171.html

Because I swapped a known good level sender and did not replace the o-ring...which led to an annoying leak.
http://atkinsrotary.com/store/81-95-Rx7-Oil-Level-Sender-O-Ring-N326-10-T11.html

I'm also giving thought to pulling only the engine and leaving the tranny. Reason being, I have Royal Purple fluid in the tranny. I can drain it and save it, but in that process some will be lost and I don't want to buy another bottle simply to top it off. Seems that the engine pull would be much easier, but putting it in will be tougher. Any thoughts from more experienced members?

RETed

12-16-2012, 06:52 AM

I'm hoping it's fouled plugs. My plugs are fouling so the engine runs great when fresh ones are put in and within a couple weeks you can hear and feel a change in the engine as they foul. Any other thoughts on what it could be? TPS, timing...anything else anyone can think of?
Hard to say, but to cause spark plugs to foul that badly and that quickly means something is really out of whack.
The engine will run with quite a bit more fuel that needed and timing off by as much as 10-degrees (or slightly more) without giving a hint of something is wrong.
You're not running really cold plugs - colder than 9's?

I'm also giving thought to pulling only the engine and leaving the tranny. Reason being, I have Royal Purple fluid in the tranny. I can drain it and save it, but in that process some will be lost and I don't want to buy another bottle simply to top it off. Seems that the engine pull would be much easier, but putting it in will be tougher. Any thoughts from more experienced members?
I'm one of those weird ones that prefer to leave the trans in place...
Would love to have the space and equipment to handle both the trans and the engine install at the same time, but in most cases, this is the opposite.
With the aide of an engine tilter (this REALLY helps), installing the engine back into the trans usually takes me about 15 minutes.
The PITA part is alternating the trans bolts between top and bottom - you end up with quite a work-out!

-Ted

JustJeff

12-16-2012, 01:22 PM

Hard to say, but to cause spark plugs to foul that badly and that quickly means something is really out of whack.
The engine will run with quite a bit more fuel that needed and timing off by as much as 10-degrees (or slightly more) without giving a hint of something is wrong.
You're not running really cold plugs - colder than 9's?
-Ted

I've alternated between stock 7 and 9's and using all 9's. IIRC it is stock 7 and 9s in there now. The couple of weeks thing on the plugs fouling may have been an exageration. The car has sat a couple months without driving it so it's my best recall. But over time I can hear the exhaust tone change as they foul. I'm going to replace them just before i pull the engine to see how that effects the boost problem. I'll get some pics of the plugs and post them. In fact, I'll get the plugs today.

JustJeff

12-16-2012, 04:12 PM

Plugs had to be ordered and they will be here on Tues.

One thing I forgot to mention. I had always assumed the fouling plugs is due to coolant seal leak. Thoughts on this?

JL1RX7

12-16-2012, 05:03 PM

Or it running too rich, too much premix/oil. Those would be the big ones. If I recall correctly their used to be a sticky on the evil forum showing all the different pictures of plugs and what they mean. Always something useful to have to do a quick visual check of what you got.

RETed

12-17-2012, 12:55 AM

One thing I forgot to mention. I had always assumed the fouling plugs is due to coolant seal leak. Thoughts on this?

Yes, coolant on the spark plug tips will kill them in short order.

You can do a quick & dirty test with a DMM...
Measure resistance from the spark plug wire end to the center electrode (in combustion chamber).
Check this same measurement on one of the brand new spark plugs.
The used spark plug should be *less* in resistance due to the center electrode wear down slightly.
If the spark plug is "fouled", the resistance is going to be significantly higher.
I forget what what these NGK BUR/EQ's spec around, but the number 1.1k-ohm sticks in my head?
Don't quote me on that...

-Ted

JustJeff

12-17-2012, 03:08 AM

Yes, coolant on the spark plug tips will kill them in short order.

You can do a quick & dirty test with a DMM...
Measure resistance from the spark plug wire end to the center electrode (in combustion chamber).
Check this same measurement on one of the brand new spark plugs.
The used spark plug should be *less* in resistance due to the center electrode wear down slightly.
If the spark plug is "fouled", the resistance is going to be significantly higher.
I forget what what these NGK BUR/EQ's spec around, but the number 1.1k-ohm sticks in my head?
Don't quote me on that...

-Ted

That's some pretty resourceful thinking. Plugs will be here Tues. and I'll get some measurements and report back.

JustJeff

12-20-2012, 01:21 PM

Here's what I've got so far:

Haven't been able to accurately test my old spark plugs. Batteries in the DMM were low. It tested the new plugs just fine. All 4 9's tested at 4.83-4.91. But the old plugs I had all kinds of trouble getting readings. I was pulling old plugs and testing as I went. Wasn't getting good readings. Some of them the DMM was bouncing all over the place. Literally anything from "OL" to 35.00ish. I got frustrated with it, marked all the plugs for their position in the engine and came back to it later. While trying to test them again the DMM batteries died. I've got some batteries charging overnight and I'll test more tonight once I get home.

I moved the car to the location where I'm gonna pull the engine and looked some things over and generally tinkered around. I played around with my MBC settings to find out more about the stuttering when boost pressure builds. It always happens right when the engine goes from vacuum to boost. If I turn MBC all the way down and purging as much as possible stuttering happens less. What I found is that if I get the engine past that transition from vacuum to boost it boosts just fine once it gets beyond that point. If I turn the MBC up and get on the engine some pressure moves past that zero transition point quickly and once it's showing boost it will hold 5 psi nice and even. Going in the opposite direction when boost is dropping and its going back into vacuum the engine will again stutter. Vacuum leak is what I'm thinking?

Here is what I found. The two large vacuum hoses on the Purge Control Valve have turned soft and jelly-like and literally won't stay on the PCV. I have removed as much of the vacuum routing as possible but left the rats nest in place. I don't think I routed anything incorrectly...but user error is always possible. Going on the assumption that everything is routed correctly; my question is why those vacuum lines have turned to jelly? Oil blowing through the hoses?

Possibly related and possibly just normal behavior. When I first turned the rebuilt engine over and letting it idle, warm up, etc. I was checking fluids and listening for bad noises. I noticed my oil filter got amazingly hot. Too hot to touch and I was worried enough that I shut the engine off. I couldn't find anything out of place so I went ahead and proceeded with breaking in the engine and I haven't noticed the oil filter or oil temps being unusually high. I've got an aftermarket oil temp gauge and the numbers stay in the normal range.

Pete_89T2

12-20-2012, 02:42 PM

Here is what I found. The two large vacuum hoses on the Purge Control Valve have turned soft and jelly-like and literally won't stay on the PCV. I have removed as much of the vacuum routing as possible but left the rats nest in place. I don't think I routed anything incorrectly...but user error is always possible. Going on the assumption that everything is routed correctly; my question is why those vacuum lines have turned to jelly? Oil blowing through the hoses?

Possibly related and possibly just normal behavior. When I first turned the rebuilt engine over and letting it idle, warm up, etc. I was checking fluids and listening for bad noises. I noticed my oil filter got amazingly hot. Too hot to touch and I was worried enough that I shut the engine off. I couldn't find anything out of place so I went ahead and proceeded with breaking in the engine and I haven't noticed the oil filter or oil temps being unusually high. I've got an aftermarket oil temp gauge and the numbers stay in the normal range.

WRT the PCV hoses, the two hoses on the bottom of the PCV often turn to goo. That would be the large diameter one that goes to the oil filler nipple on the housing and smaller one routes back to the intake mani via the rats nest IIRC. Both see crankcase/oil vapors, so over time a cheaper grade rubber hose (regular vacuum hose) or a standard unlinered silicone hose will breakdown. Look for hose rated as an "emissions" hose to replace those; it's nitrile rubber IIRC, which is designed to be compatible with oil vapors.

The oil filter being too hot to handle is probably normal - depends on your threshold of pain. I've got an oil temp gauge on my FC, and if I touch the filter while the oil temp gauge is reading a normal 195F, I find the filter too hot to handle.

JustJeff

12-20-2012, 09:06 PM

WRT the PCV hoses, the two hoses on the bottom of the PCV often turn to goo. That would be the large diameter one that goes to the oil filler nipple on the housing and smaller one routes back to the intake mani via the rats nest IIRC. Both see crankcase/oil vapors, so over time a cheaper grade rubber hose (regular vacuum hose) or a standard unlinered silicone hose will breakdown. Look for hose rated as an "emissions" hose to replace those; it's nitrile rubber IIRC, which is designed to be compatible with oil vapors.

The oil filter being too hot to handle is probably normal - depends on your threshold of pain. I've got an oil temp gauge on my FC, and if I touch the filter while the oil temp gauge is reading a normal 195F, I find the filter too hot to handle.

Excellent point on the hose issue...I never even considered that.

About the filter, I didn't have my oil temp gauge wired up at the time I first started the engine up. My concern was how much hotter and how quickly it got hot compared to the rest of the engine and coolant. What I guess was going on was that there was probably air being pushed through with the oil on initial start up.

Pete_89T2

12-21-2012, 01:40 AM

Excellent point on the hose issue...I never even considered that.

About the filter, I didn't have my oil temp gauge wired up at the time I first started the engine up. My concern was how much hotter and how quickly it got hot compared to the rest of the engine and coolant. What I guess was going on was that there was probably air being pushed through with the oil on initial start up.

Compared to coolant, I've noticed my oil temps rise faster on a cold start. This is normal. The stock oil cooler has a thermovalve in it that allows oil to bypass the cooler when it's below a certain temperature. Also your oil filter has a pretty thin metal case, so the heat from the hot oil flowing thru it will readily transfer to your hand.

RETed

12-21-2012, 05:04 AM

With the emissions hoses, you gotta be careful...
Anything that has oil (vapor) or gasoline vapor will make short order of regular "vacuum hose" and / or silicone vacuum hose.
In a pinch, I recommend using "carburetor fuel hose," which is cheap and easy to get from any car parts store.
At least the carb fuel hose is rated to handle petroluem liquids and vapors.
Almost any vacuum hose 6mm or 1/4" I.D. under the hood is going to have either oil "crankcase" vapors or gasoline vapors from the gas tank.

I concur that it's normal for the oil filter to get that hot.
For most humans, when temp start to edge over 100F, you tend to pull your hand away.
Pain threshold is around 120F - 130F?
I think 2nd degree burns start about that temps too.
Normal oil temps are 190F - 200F, so this is easily over the burn / pain threshold.
Coolant temps will beat oil temps to the thermostat setting, but the oil temps will tend to equalize faster throughout the engine due to 1) having a smaller heat exchanger - i.e. oil cooler, and 2) oil paths are concentrated around the hottest parts of the engine.
Once oil temps are at it's normal operating temperatures, it takes a long time for that temp to come down, especially versus coolant temps.

As for the MBC and boost sensor related issues...
I got a quick&dirty test for you, but with the engine being hurt, we might wait till after the rebuild?
You can isolate if it's a boost related issue by disconnecting the electrical connector from the boost sensor.
Try to minimize running the engine into heavy boost at any one single time, but running in and out of boost just across the "0" threshold should be safe.
If the hiccup goes away, it's a boost or boost sensor related issue.
If the hiccup is still there, look else where...

-Ted

JustJeff

12-21-2012, 09:23 PM

Yeah, you two are both probably right abou the filter getting hot as quickly as it did. And being my first rebuild I'm looking for things and not knowing everything to look for...so I'm creating more questions that I need to.

I believe the car is parked where it will remain until rebuild is done. I'm probably done testing things after today. I'm getting a little crunched for time and like Ted mentioned, testing on a sick engine isn't really helping to narrow down any problems outside of the coolant seal problem. I did a compression test on the cold engine just looking for and hoping to get all even bumps. Which I did get!! Perfect world I would have warmed the engine up but that did not happen and I was really just easing my paranoia that my problems could also be related to a bad apex, corner or side seal.

Cold Numbers
Front 95-100ish
Rear 110-120ish all around

JustJeff

01-05-2013, 12:56 PM

Well I believe while prepping the engine for removal I found the cause of my boost problems.
http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc6/737456_4731434598172_1191934872_o.jpg

It was very small when I started removing things, In the process of pulling the TMIC and getting the pic I made the tear much much worse. The $4 plumbing coupler served me well, but I suppose I should get the proper part. :suspect:

I haven't decided whether to pull the tranny with the engine or just the engine. Pulling the engine only will make removal much easier as I will not have to drain the transmission, lower the exhaust, remove heat shielding to get to transmission mount and convertible transmission brace. Come to think of it, I won't have to take the clutch hose off either.

Ted something I forgot to mention in our PM. On the initial rebuild I had replaced the clutch with an ACT street clutch. Replaced the throwout and pilot bearings at that time.

Pete_89T2

01-07-2013, 07:08 AM

Well I believe while prepping the engine for removal I found the cause of my boost problems.

It was very small when I started removing things, In the process of pulling the TMIC and getting the pic I made the tear much much worse. The $4 plumbing coupler served me well, but I suppose I should get the proper part. :suspect:.

That will do it... For replacement silicone couplers & related parts, you might want to give these guys a try:

http://www.siliconeintakes.com/

Prices are very reasonable for silicone parts, and the parts I tried seem to be holding up rather well after a year of use on my daily driver. Haven't used any of their parts on the FC yet, but I purchased a couple of straight coupler pieces from them for my Protege5. The stock rubber/plastic intake pipe on that car has a bad habit of cracking over time, so rather than paying Mazda the crazy cost of another stock part, I fabbed up a replacement pipe with these couplers and some AL pipe.

I haven't decided whether to pull the tranny with the engine or just the engine. Pulling the engine only will make removal much easier as I will not have to drain the transmission, lower the exhaust, remove heat shielding to get to transmission mount and convertible transmission brace. Come to think of it, I won't have to take the clutch hose off either.

My $0.02 is on pulling just the engine. If you're pulling the tranny out with it, you'll also need a bit more clear workspace in front of where the car sits to manuever the hoist & engine/tranny unit out of the car without hitting anything along the way.

JustJeff

01-07-2013, 03:58 PM

Thanks for the heads up on silicone parts source. I did pull just the engine, and yes it was so much easier than pulling the tranny with the engine. Prepping for removal aside, it took maybe 15 min to pull the engine, swing the engine hoist around and drop the engine into the back of my van. Going to rebuild the engine in a warmer location than where the car is stored.

This might be mundane but the bolt from tranny to engine. The one behind the starter came out with oil on it. There wasn't a trail of oil leading down to the bolt (like from the oil filter area), and no oil around the head of the bolt. But I pulled the bolt out and it had a nice coating of oil on it.
http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/416528_4743155131178_1464693515_o.jpg

There she is, in all her glory...
http://sphotos-h.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/459355_4743156811220_1496529211_o.jpg

RETed

01-07-2013, 11:30 PM

This might be mundane but the bolt from tranny to engine. The one behind the starter came out with oil on it. There wasn't a trail of oil leading down to the bolt (like from the oil filter area), and no oil around the head of the bolt. But I pulled the bolt out and it had a nice coating of oil on it.

I swear it looks like oil dripped down from the oil filter / base?

Any leaks on the oil pan itself?
It could be an oil leak could've seeped upwards?

-Ted

JustJeff

01-08-2013, 03:19 AM

I swear it looks like oil dripped down from the oil filter / base?

Any leaks on the oil pan itself?
It could be an oil leak could've seeped upwards?

-Ted

Yes and yes, I'm using an oil pedestal sandwich for my temp and pressure senders. I did initially have problems with the sandwich leaking, which I had addressed. I also had a leak at the oil level sensor on the oil pan. I wasn't sure if the sensor that came on my JDM engine was working or not so I swapped to a known working one. I did not think to replace the oring and had a consistent but small leak from there.

I didn't not see any oil had run down the bellhousing of the transmission, but I think I know where this is leading. Oil from the pedestal leak worked its way between the rear iron and transmission?

JustJeff

01-09-2013, 03:01 AM

How much should this soot bother me coming off the front exhaust port? I inspected the exhaust manifold and didn't see any cracks in that location.
http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/736006_4750015982695_1155980599_o.jpg

Here is the port with a lil bit of soot matching the soot one the opposite facing of the gasket.
http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/737220_4750017102723_1082542941_o.jpg

RETed

01-09-2013, 05:10 AM

I didn't not see any oil had run down the bellhousing of the transmission, but I think I know where this is leading. Oil from the pedestal leak worked its way between the rear iron and transmission?

Yes, it's possible.
I've seen oil leaking from the oil cooler fittings at the oil cooler somehow whip back and end up coating the bottom of the trans!
You gotta remember that air flows from the front, up and over and under the engine...

http://i1061.photobucket.com/albums/t477/f8ldzz/MISC/jeff01_zps967f3aad.jpg

Just a quick note on this pic...
Red circle shows an exhaust gas leak.
It should have a similar mark on the turbo exhaust manifold.
Gasket looks okay...
Was the turbo exhaust manifold not bolted down tight enough?
Crack?

-Ted

JustJeff

01-09-2013, 05:57 PM

It should have a similar mark on the turbo exhaust manifold.
Gasket looks okay...
Was the turbo exhaust manifold not bolted down tight enough?
Crack?

-Ted

We saw the same thing in that pic. Sometimes I post things to confirm what I'm already thinking, but also others can learn if they run into similar situations. A lot of times car forums have people posting the really cool and extreme stuff they are doing, but don't post mundane things. The mundane things I think help people such as myself, who don't have large real life network to bounce ideas/experiences off of.

That being said, Yes, IIRC I did have problems getting the front of the exhaust manifold bolted down. On the first rebuild, after the engine had been installed I then made the untimely decision to put new exhaust gaskets on. I do remember having trouble getting the front manifold nuts tightened down correctly. But also as this pic shows, I do have cracks in the manifold. They were there when the initial rebuild happened last year, I was hoping they were not long enough to cause a leak.
http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/741241_4753191822089_1131340324_o.jpg

I have a spare S5 turbo manifold in storage, I'll get that either later tonight or tomorrow morning. I remember that the manifold wasn't in perfect shape, but that's as much as I remember.

What I don't know is what to expect from symptoms of an exhaust leak at that location. Louder exhaust, but what else?

I have heard of people welding and repairing cracks, but I've also heard that often times that the welded repair then becomes a problem down the road. It sounds like repairing those cracks are more a temporary fix than an long term solution. But the reason I'm bringing up temporary fixes is that this summer I will be taking welding classes. It is possible that this summer I will meet someone through the instructor of the class who could weld a new manifold for me. If I could learn to do the work myself that would be better, but might be a little ambitious of an expectation from an entry level welding class.

RETed

01-09-2013, 06:26 PM

That being said, Yes, IIRC I did have problems getting the front of the exhaust manifold bolted down. On the first rebuild, after the engine had been installed I then made the untimely decision to put new exhaust gaskets on. I do remember having trouble getting the front manifold nuts tightened down correctly. But also as this pic shows, I do have cracks in the manifold. They were there when the initial rebuild happened last year, I was hoping they were not long enough to cause a leak.

I have a spare S5 turbo manifold in storage, I'll get that either later tonight or tomorrow morning. I remember that the manifold wasn't in perfect shape, but that's as much as I remember.

What I don't know is what to expect from symptoms of an exhaust leak at that location. Louder exhaust, but what else?

It looks like this turbo exhaust manifold is just a door stop... :(

http://i1061.photobucket.com/albums/t477/f8ldzz/MISC/741241_4753191822089_1131340324_o_zpsa4d7894e.jpg

The red arrows goes to the two, obvious cracks.
Most of the time, you just worry about the cracks.
It looks like in your case, the entire area between the two cracks has shifted.
Encircled in red...
This would explain the soot marks on the gasket.

To fix this case, you'd need to first weld the cracks and then machine down the flange flat.
Unless you've got the resources to do this, it's way too much trouble.

Small exhaust leaks start out as ticking sounds...
As they get worst, they progress to a pfft...pfft...pfft and sometimes whistling sounds like old-school VW engines.

I have heard of people welding and repairing cracks, but I've also heard that often times that the welded repair then becomes a problem down the road. It sounds like repairing those cracks are more a temporary fix than an long term solution. But the reason I'm bringing up temporary fixes is that this summer I will be taking welding classes. It is possible that this summer I will meet someone through the instructor of the class who could weld a new manifold for me. If I could learn to do the work myself that would be better, but might be a little ambitious of an expectation from an entry level welding class.
Yeah, see above.
The consensus on these turbo exhaust manifolds is that you either got a good one or you don't.
Many of them warp - due to the metal content.
Some of them warp (and crack) to the point where they are junk.
It's usually easier and cheaper just to replace.

-Ted

vrracing

01-09-2013, 06:46 PM

I've found Verocious Motorsports (http://www.verociousmotorsports.com/) to be great for silicone and all the other fab stuff. Their prices are usually really good and they ship really fast too.

I bought a bunch of stuff from them and have always been pleased so maybe you'll find them useful too.

Bummer about the manifold.

JustJeff

01-10-2013, 05:40 PM

Thanks for the heads up vrracing. I'll check them out.

As for the exhaust manifolds
I pulled my spare one from storage and it's no better and has cracks in just about the exact same location. I stopped in the trusted machine shop I've been using to ask about repairing the manifold. He's prognosis was not good for either manifold. It would cost me around $100 to attempt to repair one of them. His concern is that once they start heating up the manifold the cracks will extend and become unrepairable.

I haven't made much progress in getting the engine torn down. I've got a what I think is a bad rotator cuff in my right arm. It's quite miserable in that simple range of movement trying to reach across my body, behind me, over my head, or reach out for something lights up my arm like crazy. Getting the flywheel off today was about all my arm could take.

JustJeff

01-12-2013, 01:13 AM

Engine is torn down. What does a failed coolant seal physically look like? I didn't find any blown out coolant walls. I didn't find any seals broken in half, but I did find two inner coolant seals shreaded quite easily. But that seemed almost normal for the inner.
http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/740288_4764278859258_1711152191_o.jpg

I have not started cleaning parts yet and snapped some pics of what I think are suspicious looking coolant seals still in the grooves.
http://sphotos-a.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/740411_4764282979361_1924658970_o.jpg

This spot was splitting at the seam, but also at the bottom of the pic.
http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc6/739734_4764285459423_1655238318_o.jpg

Something bad did happen while transporting the engine after the flywheel and front bolt had been broken free. Engine came free of it's restraints and rolled in the back of the van. I'll get some pics tomorrow of my front and rear iron for opinions.

RETed

01-12-2013, 02:05 AM

Can you take a wide angle view of the entire surface of the irons?
Sometimes you can see a discoloration in the area of the coolant leak...

-Ted

JustJeff

01-13-2013, 01:14 AM

Here is my big concern. The engine was being transported after having the flywheel nut and front stack nut broken free. It came free of restraints and rolled. Torsion bearing was damaged and one of the cylindrical bearings fell into the engine. My assumption is that there will be an oil leak at that location from there being too much space between surface and oil control ring???
http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/476088_4769330505546_2079282554_o.jpg

Here are some wider angle pics of irons.
http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc6/242543_4769330025534_1264932479_o.jpg

http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/616984_4769330585548_1986186801_o.jpg
Different pic of same middle iron facing
http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/704286_4769330745552_391978867_o.jpg

http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/740493_4769330985558_219753911_o.jpg

I didn't notice this while taking the pics, but did while moving pics from smartphone to computer. Rust in the seal channel?
http://sphotos-a.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/476175_4769331305566_1662477060_o.jpg

JustJeff

01-13-2013, 01:23 AM

Are these deformations significant?
http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/740997_4769391547072_1747924522_o.jpg

http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/476111_4769387786978_1125786481_o.jpg

RETed

01-13-2013, 03:26 PM

I didn't find any seals broken in half, but I did find two inner coolant seals shreaded quite easily. But that seemed almost normal for the inner.
Yes.
Typically, the stock inner water jacket o-rings tend to "delam" when removed. The inner, orange stuff is silicone.
The outer white "liner" is Teflon?
The two materials don't adhere to each other too well.

One side note...
Mazda recommends putting the "seam" of the inner water jacket o-ring seal toward the intake port.
At this location, this is the area where that seal sees the least amount of stress - heat and pressure.
I noticed that you got your seams in approximately the 12 o'clock position almost dead top.

I have not started cleaning parts yet and snapped some pics of what I think are suspicious looking coolant seals still in the grooves.
In general, you don't usually worry about them, although the one pic with the longer "cut" in it is kinda weird.
The seal has no where to go, so as long as the tear doesn't grow, the seal should stay intact.

Something bad did happen while transporting the engine after the flywheel and front bolt had been broken free. Engine came free of it's restraints and rolled in the back of the van. I'll get some pics tomorrow of my front and rear iron for opinions.

You talking about that "smear" toward the center of the iron?
Does it pass the fingernail test?
Can you tell it's a depression by running your fingertip over it?

-Ted

RETed

01-13-2013, 03:34 PM

I didn't notice this while taking the pics, but did while moving pics from smartphone to computer. Rust in the seal channel?

Yeah, that's not a good sign...
Assuming the irons were cleaned methodically, the rust was not there upon assembly.
It's safe to say that the rust formed after the engine was put together, so coolant was getting past the seal somehow...
Not good.

I've cropped one of your pics here...

http://i1061.photobucket.com/albums/t477/f8ldzz/MISC/704286_4769330745552_391978867_o_zps26ad93c6.jpg

Red circle shows possible sign of coolant entering the combustion chamber.
Looking at the orientation of the iron, this would be the "top" of the combustion cycle.
Blue circle shows the coolant trying to burn inside the engine - coolant doesn't burn well so it leaves traces like this...

This would be my guess where the coolant leak came from.

-Ted

RETed

01-13-2013, 03:36 PM

Are these deformations significant?

Again, like the cuts, usually not a big deal...
Seal has no where to go.
These dents are typical when using some kinda supplemental sealant with the water jacket o-ring?
Petroleum jelly?
Hylomar?

-Ted

JustJeff

01-18-2013, 10:08 AM

Yes.
Typically, the stock inner water jacket o-rings tend to "delam" when removed. The inner, orange stuff is silicone.
The outer white "liner" is Teflon?
The two materials don't adhere to each other too well.

One side note...
Mazda recommends putting the "seam" of the inner water jacket o-ring seal toward the intake port.
At this location, this is the area where that seal sees the least amount of stress - heat and pressure.
I noticed that you got your seams in approximately the 12 o'clock position almost dead top.

In general, you don't usually worry about them, although the one pic with the longer "cut" in it is kinda weird.
The seal has no where to go, so as long as the tear doesn't grow, the seal should stay intact.

You talking about that "smear" toward the center of the iron?
Does it pass the fingernail test?
Can you tell it's a depression by running your fingertip over it?

-Ted

I'll have to rewatch the dvd, but I believe Atkins dvd suggest putting them at 12 o'clock.

About the damage on the front iron. I've reposted the pic. The circled area you can catch your fingernail on. It's been almost a week since I've touched the front iron....but as I remember it you can feel a depression but can only catch your nail in the circled area. I'll reconfirm that later today.
http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/627280_4800724090366_385714572_o.jpg

Again, like the cuts, usually not a big deal...
Seal has no where to go.
These dents are typical when using some kinda supplemental sealant with the water jacket o-ring?
Petroleum jelly?
Hylomar?

-Ted

I used hylomar

JustJeff

01-19-2013, 05:27 PM

I have gotten myself confused while checking my irons for warpage. I'm confused about the difference between checking for warpage and checking for step wear.

Warpage tolerance is 0.0016
Step wear tolerance is 0.003

Doesn't that mean there are areas on the combustion surface where step wear tolerance is higher/greater than warpage tolerance? I check my tolerance for warpage per the FSM at 4 points. Once I get into oil seal wear area there is an even greater tolerance(0.0008) and my 0.0015 feeler can slide under my straight edge. I'm also taking the straight edge across areas other than the 4 pts in FSM and finding some variations. Can someone help clarify.

Also does anyone know if the Pineapple Racing streaming videos are down? I used them for my previous rebuild and they were incredibly helpful. I sent them an email today but I expect I won't get a response till Monday.

Last question for this post. With that damage on the front iron on the rough, non-combustion area but then extending into oil ring area and possibly into side seal area.
http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/627280_4800724090366_385714572_o.jpg
What will the be the result of using that iron on the engine. I'm not seeing any irons for sale and am considering using the iron?

RETed

01-19-2013, 08:21 PM

I'll have to rewatch the dvd, but I believe Atkins dvd suggest putting them at 12 o'clock.
I guess the 12 o'clock position is technically not wrong, according to the FSM...

I prefer to put the splice where the intake ports are located.
This is the coolest area in the housing.

Sorry for the bad pics, but these are pics from the 1987 and 1991 FSM's...

http://i1061.photobucket.com/albums/t477/f8ldzz/MISC/19871991_zps81d26fa7.jpg

About the damage on the front iron. I've reposted the pic. The circled area you can catch your fingernail on. It's been almost a week since I've touched the front iron....but as I remember it you can feel a depression but can only catch your nail in the circled area.

I don't think that area is an area where the oil control seals actually run over, but maybe someone else can confirm?

Also, do you have your oil control labeled so you know which one goes where?
This might help, but can you mic out the height of the oil control metal rings?
If that area is affecting the oil control ring, it could be abrasive enough to cause the oil control ring to wear prematurely.

-Ted

RETed

01-19-2013, 08:27 PM

I have gotten myself confused while checking my irons for warpage. I'm confused about the difference between checking for warpage and checking for step wear.

Warpage tolerance is 0.0016
Step wear tolerance is 0.003

Doesn't that mean there are areas on the combustion surface where step wear tolerance is higher/greater than warpage tolerance? I check my tolerance for warpage per the FSM at 4 points. Once I get into oil seal wear area there is an even greater tolerance(0.0008) and my 0.0015 feeler can slide under my straight edge. I'm also taking the straight edge across areas other than the 4 pts in FSM and finding some variations. Can someone help clarify.

Okay, "step wear" is defined by any gouge or valley *under* the measured surface.
I believe the FSM is specific to the areas - the most critical areas are at the 3 o'clock and 9 o'clock positions about 1" from the inner water jacket groove.

"Warpage" is defined by *any* deviation - whether is be "high" or "low" measured along a surface.
Technically, any "wear" (including the above "step wear") should not factor into this warpage inspection.
Warpage is to measure how much deflection out of parallel or perpendicular a surface is...usually across a broad area.

-Ted

JustJeff

01-20-2013, 02:06 AM

Okay, "step wear" is defined by any gouge or valley *under* the measured surface.
I believe the FSM is specific to the areas - the most critical areas are at the 3 o'clock and 9 o'clock positions about 1" from the inner water jacket groove.

"Warpage" is defined by *any* deviation - whether is be "high" or "low" measured along a surface.
Technically, any "wear" (including the above "step wear") should not factor into this warpage inspection.
Warpage is to measure how much deflection out of parallel or perpendicular a surface is...usually across a broad area.

-Ted

Gotcha, thanks for clarifying Ted.

JustJeff

01-20-2013, 02:13 AM

I'm dissapointed that when I took my engine apart I did not find a smoking gun showing a blown out coolant seal and am concerned that I'll put this engine back together without identifying why/where/how the coolant seal failed.

Ted circled a pic in a previous post showing where he'd bet the seal failed. My concern is all my iron surfaces look very similar and seem to be tied to hylomar staining. Here's some pics with areas having similar staining.

http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/740075_4814791642046_905628348_o.jpg

http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/774085_4814792082057_1151021892_o.jpg

Unrelated to staining, look how thin the wall is at this point. It looks cast that way and doesn't at all feel like corrosion. Should I be concerned?
http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc6/773600_4814792482067_260927791_o.jpg

RETed

01-20-2013, 04:54 AM

JustJeff

01-20-2013, 10:36 AM

You can ignore the outer water jacket groove. :)
I've never seen a failure on the outside one unless we're talking severe corrosion problem or extreme overheating.
The majority of the punishment is done to the inner water jacket since it has to seal combustion!
More specifically, the area from 12 o'clock to 9 o'clock (or vice versa, depending on how you're looking at the housing) which is the area where you start the ignition cycle through the combustion cycle to the end of the exhaust cycle is most important. :)

Sometimes it's very hard to tell from just pics on where the coolant leak came from.
It's almost necessary to be there - in person - to get a good idea of what is going on.
I tried to the best job just by the pics you posted... :(

Another question...
Assumed you did torque the engine down in the specified order...
How much torque did you tighten the tension bolts down to?
What kinda torque wrench?

-Ted

You have been very helpful Ted

I figured the same thing about that thin spot, but thought it was odd that it had a thin spot.

I don't remember the specific order I torqued the through bolts down in, but I did it in a chris cross pattern. I used a beam torque wrench and did them down to FSM specs..though I don't recall what those numbers are at the moment. I get where you are going with this though and talked to a friend about it just yesterday. If they weren't torqued down correctly wouldn't I have had leaks everywhere. I didn't have any signs of coolant in oil or any outer leaks through the irons and into engine bay. BUT I did transport the assembled keg to a friends shop to use his air tools for the flywheel nut. I doubt the engine "loosened" during transportation....but is it possible?

RETed

01-20-2013, 11:21 AM

I figured the same thing about that thin spot, but thought it was odd that it had a thin spot.
I think the molds were just getting bad toward the end of the production that some of the irons came out like that.
I've seen a lot of them on tear-downs, and they look awfully like massive corrosion...
It's so common that I've just chalked it up to "bad" molds.
Oddly enough, I've never seen a failure in those areas.

I don't remember the specific order I torqued the through bolts down in, but I did it in a chris cross pattern. I used a beam torque wrench and did them down to FSM specs..though I don't recall what those numbers are at the moment. I get where you are going with this though and talked to a friend about it just yesterday. If they weren't torqued down correctly wouldn't I have had leaks everywhere. I didn't have any signs of coolant in oil or any outer leaks through the irons and into engine bay. BUT I did transport the assembled keg to a friends shop to use his air tools for the flywheel nut. I doubt the engine "loosened" during transportation....but is it possible?
I believe the Mazda torque spec is around 27 lb-ft?
I only use Snap On torque wrenches - click-type.
I run my rebuilds at 30 lb-ft.
It's slightly higher than stock spec, but it's not tight enough to interfere with the rotating assembly.
I know guys run them higher, but you run the risk of increasing friction.
I've seen an engine torqued down to 40 lb-ft that almost could not be rotated by hand!
I know Snap On torque wrenches are not cheap, but the ~$200 investment is a good one in this case.

-Ted

JustJeff

01-20-2013, 01:49 PM

I believe the Mazda torque spec is around 27 lb-ft?
I only use Snap On torque wrenches - click-type.
I run my rebuilds at 30 lb-ft.
It's slightly higher than stock spec, but it's not tight enough to interfere with the rotating assembly.
I know guys run them higher, but you run the risk of increasing friction.
I've seen an engine torqued down to 40 lb-ft that almost could not be rotated by hand!
I know Snap On torque wrenches are not cheap, but the ~$200 investment is a good one in this case.

-Ted

I've got a Craftsman. I doubt that the torque was off unless the wrench was faulty. I like the beam type wrenches more cause I can see with my own eyse type thing. Trusting a click in a wrench makes me nervous. I got very anal and almost OCD when checking torque on nuts and bolts. I went around the through/tension bolts several times, but don't remember what the torque was on them. I took notes and pics through the teardown and tolerance speccing, but then at the end for assembly I got more focused on getting the job done and note taking fell by the wayside.

JL1RX7

01-20-2013, 02:07 PM

The click type torque wrenches are very accurate as long as they are not dropped and used for the final torque. Beam are the least accurate. I have seen so many fail calibration brand new out the box.
The snap on ones are expensive but they are very good. Used them in the Navy torquing bolts and CADS on the ejection seats. Figure if they are used for that then it is more than good for a car.

JustJeff

01-23-2013, 11:34 PM

I don't see myself springing for a Snap-On wrench. I've been reading up on checking beam type wrenches by hanging a weight and measuring distance from the socket end. Do some math and find out how accurate your wrench is.

I can get a Craftsman click wrench for $70...that I can justify spending if my beam type shows to be innacurate. Opinions on Craftsman torque wrenches?

RETed

01-24-2013, 05:52 AM

If the $200 - $250 price tag for a brand new one bothers you, you can always get one used... :)
For a while, I was chasing a lot of them off of eBay.
I can usually get one for about $100 - $150 depending on condition.
If you're lucky, you can get one for under $100.
(A lot of pawn shops tend to dump them on eBay.)
You can always get them recalibrated locally through the Snap On dealer with a nominal fee.
Or, you can buy a calibration machine for like $1,000... :D

This is something that I would not skimp on.
That's just the way I view the work.
I first started out with a (brand new) Sears Craftsman torque wrench...
The nut in the handle backed out and fell apart in my hands...literally.
I went in and told them I wanted my money back.

All your mil-spec and civilian contractor torque wrenches will most likely be Snap On, although I've seen a few Proto's here and there.
You'll see them pop up on eBay - with set torque levels that cannot be adjusted.

This is something I see as an investment.
Your torque settings can make or break what you're building or servicing.
In the end, is the ~$200 that expensive?
Most of us drop at least $1,000 for a rebuild just on parts...
Specifically for the tension bolts, since we're looking at the 30 lb-ft range, you're most likely looking at a wrench that does 0 - 50 lb-ft.
(Rule of thumb is to shoot for the middle of the adjustment range.)
That covers the majority of fasteners in your FC short of the flywheel nut, front eccentric shaft bolt, wheel hubs, and maybe some of the larger suspension fasteners, so that torque wrench is not likely going to just sit on the shelf collecting dust once you're done with the rebuild (tension bolts).

-Ted

RETed

01-24-2013, 05:55 AM

I can get a Craftsman click wrench for $70...that I can justify spending if my beam type shows to be innacurate.

One problem with the beam-type is that parallax can be a problem.
Depending on gradiation, you could be off by as much as 5 lb-ft in some cases...

This is why I asked what #'s were you shooting for.
If you're trying to shoot for 25 lb-ft, if we account for possible parallax error, it could be as low as 20 lb-ft...
20 lb-ft is a bit too low for most rebuilders.

-Ted

JustJeff

01-26-2013, 01:59 AM

One problem with the beam-type is that parallax can be a problem.
Depending on gradiation, you could be off by as much as 5 lb-ft in some cases...

This is why I asked what #'s were you shooting for.
If you're trying to shoot for 25 lb-ft, if we account for possible parallax error, it could be as low as 20 lb-ft...
20 lb-ft is a bit too low for most rebuilders.

-Ted

IRRC I did the tension bolts to 30lbs. I was very thorough in checking them repeatedly. As you tighten them it lessens the torque on the ones tightened before the most recent. I went back through and checked them a few times.

I may do a little experiment. I may buy both a cheap Harbor Freight clicker as well as a Craftsman. I've got some spare trashed n/a irons. I may find a spot to tighten a bolt down with all 3 wrenches and see how much variance there is. Maybe just do a nut on an exhaust stud?

JustJeff

01-26-2013, 02:02 AM

RETed

01-26-2013, 04:43 AM

IRRC I did the tension bolts to 30lbs. I was very thorough in checking them repeatedly. As you tighten them it lessens the torque on the ones tightened before the most recent. I went back through and checked them a few times.
Very good point...
I'll normally do a minimum of 4 rounds of tightening the tension bolts.
1st @ 10 lb-ft
2nd @ 20 lb-ft
3rd @ 30 lb-ft
The above is done with the Mazda recommended torque pattern in the FSM.
I'll do one last torque down set at the same 30 lb-ft final but just go around in a clockwise pattern - that's #4.

I may do a little experiment. I may buy both a cheap Harbor Freight clicker as well as a Craftsman. I've got some spare trashed n/a irons. I may find a spot to tighten a bolt down with all 3 wrenches and see how much variance there is. Maybe just do a nut on an exhaust stud?
Good idea but stay away from the exhaust fasteners.
Most dedicated exhaust fasteners have special (thread) profiles to keep them snug - usually the female or nut side of things.
Torquing and retorquing might not be consistent.
I'll try and pick something else?

-Ted

RETed

01-26-2013, 04:45 AM

Oh the one thing I did was stop at the machine shop I use. I showed him my front iron and he has the equipment to lap my irons if I want it done. He's confident he can lap as little as 0.001 if that's what I want.

Now I need to research prepping them for lapping and re-read the pros and cons of lapping

Only thing you gotta worry about is the eccentric shaft play and possibly adjusting the spacer in the front assembly.
Mazda has the specs for this in the FSM.

-Ted

JustJeff

01-26-2013, 04:50 PM

Only thing you gotta worry about is the eccentric shaft play and possibly adjusting the spacer in the front assembly.
Mazda has the specs for this in the FSM.

-Ted

On my first assembly I actually just shaved down that spacer. I had to replace the front rotor and housing on my first rebuild. I now have a second spacer from an N/A engine I tore down. If I do have the iron lapped or replace it; hopefully one of those spacers has the correct end play.

For the record shaving down that spacer was a PITA and took forever, but I didn't want to wait a week for shipping to get my engine together. What I did after I saw end play was out of spec was take apart the front stack. Sand down the spacer and constantly was checking with my micrometer to make sure I had it evenly shaved. I believe I checked on either 6 or 8 pts around the spacer. So I'd take some material off, assemble the front stack, check endplay with my dial indicator and repeat the whole process till end play was within spec.

JustJeff

01-26-2013, 05:05 PM

This is a noob question, but what are the circled rings on the irons called?http://sphotos-d.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/792418_4860473824072_1458739674_o.jpg

Those of course need to be removed for lapping and then I assume simply pressed back in after lapping. I talked to the machine shop about doing the lapping, but I don't think they really want to do the work. Owner said (what I already knew) that those would need to come out so the iron can lay flat for the lapping....but didn't offer or say "we can pull those for you" Do they come as easily as getting some Vice Grips and working them loose?

I didn't even ask the machine shop costs on having the iron lapped cause instinct tells me that if I can find a replacement that is in spec that is going to be the best moneys spent. I left the shop thinking, "It's an option, but not the best options...I'll find a used iron." Problem is that irons and housings are getting very hard to find. I suspect that with 20 yr old parts that rotary shops are buying up the parts and holding them. The flooding in Japan certainly doesn't help matters.

If I do have 0.001 lapped, should I also be re-nitrating? I wouldn't think I'd have to. That surface is 0.004 thick which still leaves me 0.003 of material.

JustJeff

01-30-2013, 12:24 PM

I've decided to use my front iron. I simply need to make a list of the small parts I need that I hadn't already ordered and get them on their way.

I decided to replace my flywheel with one VRRacing was selling and also replaced my exhaust manifold. Waiting for both those parts to arrive.

JustJeff

01-30-2013, 04:17 PM

RETed

01-31-2013, 06:12 AM

This is a noob question, but what are the circled rings on the irons called?

Those are dowels.
Yes, those are press-fit into the (front) iron.
They can be removed, if need be.
They are used to locate the front oil cover into the proper position for installation.
They don't take very much stress.

-Ted

RETed

01-31-2013, 06:19 AM

While making what I hope is my final order of parts....Should I worry about replacing the bearing plate? My instinct is no, that the thrust bearing is riding on a film of oil between the bearing plate and the bearing.

Wow, that looks like "galling" to me!
Unless the pic looks worse that it is, I would replace it.
Does any of it drag on your fingernail?
If it does, you need to replace it!

On the other side...
I would inspect the Torrington bearing that was in contact with this plate!
I would bet some of the needle bearings are scored?
I would recommend to replace that Torrington bearing too.
At the same time, inspect the other Torrington bearing too...
It's not supposed to look like that unless we're talking really high mileage, high power, and / or lack of oil lubrication?

-Ted

JustJeff

01-31-2013, 11:38 AM

Wow, that looks like "galling" to me!
Unless the pic looks worse that it is, I would replace it.
Does any of it drag on your fingernail?
If it does, you need to replace it!

On the other side...
I would inspect the Torrington bearing that was in contact with this plate!
I would bet some of the needle bearings are scored?
I would recommend to replace that Torrington bearing too.
At the same time, inspect the other Torrington bearing too...
It's not supposed to look like that unless we're talking really high mileage, high power, and / or lack of oil lubrication?

-Ted

It does look worse in the pic than it is. There is one spot where I can catch my nail. Unless it went to scrap, I do have another plate from an N/A engine I toredown, or I have a friend who has one. Replacing it won't be an issue.

For what it's worth and IIRC that is how the plate look on the original teardown and rebuild. The engine is a JDM but did not appear to be high power. It had factory turbo, factory fuel injectors. That wear is on the underside/engine side of the plate and I'll certainly look over the bearing. I need to replace the top/cover-side bearing as I damaged it during dissasembly. Atkins sells them as a pair. I was going to call Dan and ask him to sell me only one because all the parts have about 2k miles on them.

One thing I'm thinking of while ordering parts is doing some porting. I would like to do at least some exhaust porting and maybe get templates. I have some ruined housings and N/A irons I can practice on.

diabolical1

02-03-2013, 11:50 AM

i agree with Ted. replace the plate.

JustJeff

02-03-2013, 11:55 AM

i agree with Ted. replace the plate.

Yep, it's being replaced. My spare apparently went to scrap but a friend is mailing me one.

JustJeff

02-15-2013, 03:24 PM

I have all my parts collected minus a flywheel and ready to put it all together. I'm a lil dissapointed that Pineapple Racing's videos are down. Those were very helpful in spec'ing and prepping for assembly.

My flywheel on first assembly only had 1-2 cracks on it so I had it turned and used it. 2k miles later the flywheel now has cracks all over it..maybe 8 or so. Flywheel warping? I had an n370flywheel purchased but something happened in shipping, so I need to source another one. As a precaution, if needed, I bought a S5 rear counterweight, it hasn't arrived yet. It may end up being mated up with light flywheel. Depending on what I find available used.

I've replaced the exhaust manifold with a minty fresh manifold. Not a crack in sight. Though I may still want to try my hand at welding a tubular manifold this summer....if the instructor for my class will allow me to use class space and tools.