How safe is 10psi ?

MrNizzles · 10-03-2009, 12:13 PM

Awesome threads on this forum...

Im running BNR 3s at 10psi with stock ecu, restrictor pills, intake, ic and all on 10k rebuilt stock motor with ss dp, stock main cat, and rb catback. So if BNR 3s flow more air, maybe somewhere between 2-3 extra psi ... how safe IS 10psi with little to no boost creep or spike?

of course I want a PFC and a coolingmist kit (or something similar) ... just wondering if I need this oh say, Tomorrow or maybe for x-mas

btw, awesome thread on the 13b-re sequential build with BNRs pushing 330... I can totally see that with all the porting and ceramic coatings... air flow must be really optimized. I suppose if he were pushing 360+ that would be harder to believe, but mostly I just wanna see PICS!

Natey · 10-03-2009, 12:24 PM

I think as long as you keep the cat (even a hi-flo one like a Bonez) you're OK.

You've got a boost gauge, right?

MrNizzles · 10-03-2009, 12:36 PM

got boost, water temp and this neat little afr unit - http://www.3barracing.com/product_3.htm

I really like the afr unit, I have never seen yellow or red when boosting only when idling but that is normal. At night, it switches between blue and green allot and other people tell me it looks like a light show for an elaborate electronic nitrous control system, hahaha.

Natey · 10-03-2009, 12:53 PM

That's a pretty cool little gadget. It seems bright enough that you could probably mount it somewhere other than the dash. Lol, mount on the tranny tunnel aiming straight up, & when your whole interior turns yellow, ease up!

But yeah, I think you'll be cool as long as you don't run a midpipe or something.

MrNizzles · 10-03-2009, 01:09 PM

actually, its on top of the tranny tunnel in front of the shifter and its really bright .. I can see it during the day with the windows down! at night I don't need the dome light, the blue light is plenty and with the red dash lights its fun. Now I just need to replace the old alpine unit that stopped working and I want to get a couple speaker mount gauges and the light show will be superb!

thnx for advice!

info from their website:

First light: Red= .78 to .90v

Second light: Yellow= .90 to .94v

Third light: Green= .94 to .98v

Fourth light: Blue= .98v and up

dudemaaan · 10-03-2009, 02:58 PM

The stock ecu runs really rich, so even with the upgraded turbos you should be fine. Narrow band sensors/gauges don't really have the resolution to be much help. And the voltage isn't linear outside of stoich. Basically they just aren't accurate. But at least you aren't seeing yellow or red.

Since you aren't running much boost you can run fairly lean without trouble. Probably around 12:1. I doubt the stock ecu would be running any leaner then that even with the extra airflow. But you're still just guessing and hoping it isn't. You could always take it to a dyno and get a single run with the wideband hooked up just to know where you're at.

Or you can get a wideband controller and gauge and check it yourself. Eventually you will need to get a pfc and a wideband would very helpful. If you plan on making any real power with the BNR's you'll need this stuff anyways.

Chadwick · 10-04-2009, 02:21 AM

You are asking for trouble, the BNR's are capable of 18+ psi. You are fine at 10 psi, but you never know when something will go wrong and you boost past 10 psi.

I personally get tired of everyone say " you will be ok... if" Shit happens and the rotary gets a bad name because of it. These motors are extremely sensitive to two things, heat and running lean, other than that they are pretty much bullet proof. You spent the money for the turbos, now spend a bit more for a PFC and upgraded fuel system. If not, give me a call when the motor blows and I will be happy to rebuild it for you

.

Take care,
Dan

***TitaniumTT*** · 10-04-2009, 06:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrNizzles

Awesome threads on this forum, much better than that "other" forum...

Im running BNR 3s at 10psi with stock ecu, restrictor pills, intake, ic and all on 10k rebuilt stock motor with ss dp, stock main cat, and rb catback. So if BNR 3s flow more air, maybe somewhere between 2-3 extra psi ... how safe IS 10psi with little to no boost creep or spike?

of course I want a PFC and a coolingmist kit (or something similar) ... just wondering if I need this oh say, Tomorrow or maybe for x-mas

btw, awesome thread on the 13b-re sequential build with BNRs pushing 330... I can totally see that with all the porting and ceramic coatings... air flow must be really optimized. I suppose if he were pushing 360+ that would be harder to believe, but mostly I just wanna see PICS!

Those are stockers

and I'm going back to KDR this Friday to up the boost to 15psi and look for 400 wheel. And my build thread is http://rotarycarclub.com/rotary_foru...ead.php?t=6995

Quote:

Originally Posted by dudemaaan

Narrow band sensors/gauges don't really have the resolution to be much help. And the voltage isn't linear outside of stoich. Basically they just aren't accurate. But at least you aren't seeing yellow or red.

Agreed, and these things should be run rich to the point where one or two points of AFR sends the thing in circles. Not useful at all really for a turbo rotary

Quote:

Originally Posted by dudemaaan

Or you can get a wideband controller and gauge and check it yourself. Eventually you will need to get a pfc and a wideband would very helpful. If you plan on making any real power with the BNR's you'll need this stuff anyways.

I would've done that first but if everything is working perfect you MAY have some time, but I wouldn't push it by any means.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chadwick

You are asking for trouble, the BNR's are capable of 18+ psi. You are fine at 10 psi, but you never know when something will go wrong and you boost past 10 psi.

Case and point -
the engine is slowed down on the dyno and I went there with the PID set up and the normal position table adjusted. She held 9 psi SOLID all day long. That night, boost cut @ 175 kpa. So even when you think you're OK, you're not necissarily.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chadwick

I personally get tired of everyone say " you will be ok... if" Shit happens and the rotary gets a bad name because of it. These motors are extremely sensitive to two things, heat and running lean, other than that they are pretty much bullet proof. You spent the money for the turbos, now spend a bit more for a PFC and upgraded fuel system. If not, give me a call when the motor blows and I will be happy to rebuild it for you

.

Take care,
Dan

More case and point -

Engine #3. Fuel PSI gauge puked on the drive to the dyno. Pressure was fine when I left so I mad the ASSumption that it would be fine. First pull, boosted 15 psi, ran 13.5 AFR's and we let out @ 4800 rpm. She made 346 RWHP and warped 2 apex seals. My fault, not the engines. The fuel filter was clogged up which is why the fuel psi sender puked.

The moral is, to sum up what I believe everyone is saying........ monitor the engines every pulse, hicccup, sneeze, cough, and even fart. Better to err on the side of saftery with a few hundred worth of upgrades than a popped engine and THEN all of the stuff you should've had from the get go.

MrNizzles · 10-04-2009, 10:14 AM

I understand all these points, thats why I wanted to post here. My rebuild did consist of a new radiator (all new hoses everywhere), new clutch cylinders, wrapping the dp, a new fpd, new secondary injectors, cleaned primaries, new fuel filter, new oil pump, new omp lines and nozzle, re-wired supra tt fuel pump... no fuel pressure gauge tho...

my point was to have the important stuff done so I could upgrade as I go ... the pfc and better boost controller is next but I don't want to boost more than 10psi until I get some type of aux inj system.

still, with winter coming, colder air outside, it will be much easier to hit 10psi and creep past. I definitely notice the change in seasons, and air temp has a big effect on spool up time and ability to hold @ 10psi.. or creep, even with ported wg and stock main cat.

maybe santa can come early this year....

***TitaniumTT*** · 10-04-2009, 10:45 AM

You're doing it backwards. Would you turn the stockers up to 15 psi before adding more fuel, ignition control and the like? No. You want all the supporting mods in place before you add the power to keep things from going wrong.
For the boost you're talking about you don't need an aux injection system

MrNizzles · 10-04-2009, 10:55 AM

this is why I dont want to boost more than 10psi, because I know I dont have all the supporting mods yet... so im not sure I understand what Im doing backwards? because I got bnrs and im running stock boost?

***TitaniumTT*** · 10-04-2009, 11:20 AM

I made 150% of factory rwhp with 90% of the boost and I'm using more fuel than what would considered safe with the factory injectors. But I'm using less boost so I should need less fuel.... So what's going on here?
Would you run a GT60 at 10psi on your current setup? Its stock boost so you should be safe right? 10lbs on one turbo is not 10lbs on another.

MrNizzles · 10-04-2009, 11:32 AM

ok well a gt60 single turbo setup isn't quite what I got (maybe apples to pears instead of apples to apples), but yeah, 10psi on bnrs is like 12 on stock twins which is still bad.

Natey · 10-04-2009, 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chadwick

You are asking for trouble, the BNR's are capable of 18+ psi. You are fine at 10 psi, but you never know when something will go wrong and you boost past 10 psi.

I personally get tired of everyone say " you will be ok... if" Shit happens and the rotary gets a bad name because of it. These motors are extremely sensitive to two things, heat and running lean, other than that they are pretty much bullet proof. You spent the money for the turbos, now spend a bit more for a PFC and upgraded fuel system. If not, give me a call when the motor blows and I will be happy to rebuild it for you

.

Take care,
Dan

I have a feeling you're referring to my post. Are you saying that he'll experience boost creep or spike with a stock catalytic converter? Maybe a boost controller is in order.

SPICcnmFD · 10-04-2009, 12:08 PM

At 10psi on BNRs you are basically as safe as you are with the stock twins, the turbos flowing more isn't going to be the problem, frankly because at 10psi there isn't much difference. It's the other mods or something going wrong that will be dangerous.

I will say you need to look at getting a PFC as soon as possible and running it at 10psi until you get some more supporting mods.

10-03-2009, 12:13 PM	#1
MrNizzles The Newbie Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 13 Rep Power: 0	How safe is 10psi ? Awesome threads on this forum... Im running BNR 3s at 10psi with stock ecu, restrictor pills, intake, ic and all on 10k rebuilt stock motor with ss dp, stock main cat, and rb catback. So if BNR 3s flow more air, maybe somewhere between 2-3 extra psi ... how safe IS 10psi with little to no boost creep or spike? of course I want a PFC and a coolingmist kit (or something similar) ... just wondering if I need this oh say, Tomorrow or maybe for x-mas btw, awesome thread on the 13b-re sequential build with BNRs pushing 330... I can totally see that with all the porting and ceramic coatings... air flow must be really optimized. I suppose if he were pushing 360+ that would be harder to believe, but mostly I just wanna see PICS! Last edited by MrNizzles; 12-17-2009 at 02:45 AM.

10-03-2009, 12:24 PM	#2
Natey n00b Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Pleasure Point, Ca. Posts: 11 Rep Power: 0	I think as long as you keep the cat (even a hi-flo one like a Bonez) you're OK. You've got a boost gauge, right? __________________ http://www.cardomain.com/ride/335883 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pleasur...Night_Fighters

10-03-2009, 12:53 PM	#4
Natey n00b Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Pleasure Point, Ca. Posts: 11 Rep Power: 0	That's a pretty cool little gadget. It seems bright enough that you could probably mount it somewhere other than the dash. Lol, mount on the tranny tunnel aiming straight up, & when your whole interior turns yellow, ease up! But yeah, I think you'll be cool as long as you don't run a midpipe or something. __________________ http://www.cardomain.com/ride/335883 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pleasur...Night_Fighters

10-03-2009, 01:09 PM	#5
MrNizzles The Newbie Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 13 Rep Power: 0	actually, its on top of the tranny tunnel in front of the shifter and its really bright .. I can see it during the day with the windows down! at night I don't need the dome light, the blue light is plenty and with the red dash lights its fun. Now I just need to replace the old alpine unit that stopped working and I want to get a couple speaker mount gauges and the light show will be superb! thnx for advice! info from their website: First light: Red= .78 to .90v Second light: Yellow= .90 to .94v Third light: Green= .94 to .98v Fourth light: Blue= .98v and up Last edited by MrNizzles; 10-03-2009 at 01:16 PM.

10-03-2009, 02:58 PM	#6
dudemaaan Rotary Fanatic Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Brenham, TX Posts: 335 Rep Power: 18	The stock ecu runs really rich, so even with the upgraded turbos you should be fine. Narrow band sensors/gauges don't really have the resolution to be much help. And the voltage isn't linear outside of stoich. Basically they just aren't accurate. But at least you aren't seeing yellow or red. Since you aren't running much boost you can run fairly lean without trouble. Probably around 12:1. I doubt the stock ecu would be running any leaner then that even with the extra airflow. But you're still just guessing and hoping it isn't. You could always take it to a dyno and get a single run with the wideband hooked up just to know where you're at. Or you can get a wideband controller and gauge and check it yourself. Eventually you will need to get a pfc and a wideband would very helpful. If you plan on making any real power with the BNR's you'll need this stuff anyways. __________________ 500+ HP thanks to: Fast reacting IAT sensor thread! Mechanical Pre-turbo Water Injection Thread Dual Stock fuel pumps Thread T2 differential swap!

10-03-2009, 12:36 PM	#3
MrNizzles The Newbie Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 13 Rep Power: 0	got boost, water temp and this neat little afr unit - http://www.3barracing.com/product_3.htm I really like the afr unit, I have never seen yellow or red when boosting only when idling but that is normal. At night, it switches between blue and green allot and other people tell me it looks like a light show for an elaborate electronic nitrous control system, hahaha.

10-04-2009, 02:21 AM	#7
Chadwick Rotary Fanatic Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Smyrna, TN, USA Posts: 239 Rep Power: 18	You are asking for trouble, the BNR's are capable of 18+ psi. You are fine at 10 psi, but you never know when something will go wrong and you boost past 10 psi. I personally get tired of everyone say " you will be ok... if" Shit happens and the rotary gets a bad name because of it. These motors are extremely sensitive to two things, heat and running lean, other than that they are pretty much bullet proof. You spent the money for the turbos, now spend a bit more for a PFC and upgraded fuel system. If not, give me a call when the motor blows and I will be happy to rebuild it for you . Take care, Dan __________________ 93 RX7 BB (Race Car) 93 RX7 SSM (Soon to be IBM and a daily driver) 05 Silverado Z71 08 Mini Cooper 80 LS RX7 (for sale)

10-04-2009, 10:14 AM	#9
MrNizzles The Newbie Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 13 Rep Power: 0	I understand all these points, thats why I wanted to post here. My rebuild did consist of a new radiator (all new hoses everywhere), new clutch cylinders, wrapping the dp, a new fpd, new secondary injectors, cleaned primaries, new fuel filter, new oil pump, new omp lines and nozzle, re-wired supra tt fuel pump... no fuel pressure gauge tho... my point was to have the important stuff done so I could upgrade as I go ... the pfc and better boost controller is next but I don't want to boost more than 10psi until I get some type of aux inj system. still, with winter coming, colder air outside, it will be much easier to hit 10psi and creep past. I definitely notice the change in seasons, and air temp has a big effect on spool up time and ability to hold @ 10psi.. or creep, even with ported wg and stock main cat. maybe santa can come early this year.... Last edited by MrNizzles; 10-04-2009 at 10:21 AM.

10-04-2009, 10:45 AM	#10
*TitaniumTT* Test Whore - Admin Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Right Behind you son Posts: 4,581 Rep Power: 10	You're doing it backwards. Would you turn the stockers up to 15 psi before adding more fuel, ignition control and the like? No. You want all the supporting mods in place before you add the power to keep things from going wrong. For the boost you're talking about you don't need an aux injection system __________________ -The Angry Stig- DGRR 2009, 2011, 2012 & 2013 - Best FC DEALS GAP!! WOOHOOOO!!!!! 2015 Audi S4 - Samantha - Zero Brap S4 2004 RX8 - Jocelyn - 196rwhp, 19mpg fuel to noise converter 2000 Jeep Cherokee Sport - Wifey mobile - Now with 2.5" OME lift and 30" BFG AT KO's! So it begins 1998 Jeep Cherokee - 5 spd, 4" lift, 33" BFG's - Rotary Tow Vehicle 1988 'Vert - In progress 1988 FC Coupe - Gretchen -The attention whore BEAST! I'm a sick individual, what's wrong with you? I'm pure Evil I'm still insane, in the best possible way. I think Brian's idea of romance is using lube. Your rage caused the meteor strike in Russia. The Antichrist would be proud of his minion. You win with your thread. Most everything It's a truck with a steel gate on the back. Just a statement of fact Motec M820, AIM dash, ported 13B-RE Cosmo, 6-spd trans, 4.3 Torsen, custom twin wg fully divided mani, Custom 4" split into 2x 3" exhaust, Custom HMIC, Custom custom custom custom I like to welder stuff.... No Bolt-ons allowed. Dyno'ed @ Speed1 Tuned by me - 405rwhp on WG.... WM50 cuming soon. *-Angry Motherfcker Mode ENGAGED-**

10-04-2009, 10:55 AM	#11
MrNizzles The Newbie Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 13 Rep Power: 0	this is why I dont want to boost more than 10psi, because I know I dont have all the supporting mods yet... so im not sure I understand what Im doing backwards? because I got bnrs and im running stock boost?

10-04-2009, 11:20 AM	#12
*TitaniumTT* Test Whore - Admin Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Right Behind you son Posts: 4,581 Rep Power: 10	I made 150% of factory rwhp with 90% of the boost and I'm using more fuel than what would considered safe with the factory injectors. But I'm using less boost so I should need less fuel.... So what's going on here? Would you run a GT60 at 10psi on your current setup? Its stock boost so you should be safe right? 10lbs on one turbo is not 10lbs on another. __________________ -The Angry Stig- DGRR 2009, 2011, 2012 & 2013 - Best FC DEALS GAP!! WOOHOOOO!!!!! 2015 Audi S4 - Samantha - Zero Brap S4 2004 RX8 - Jocelyn - 196rwhp, 19mpg fuel to noise converter 2000 Jeep Cherokee Sport - Wifey mobile - Now with 2.5" OME lift and 30" BFG AT KO's! So it begins 1998 Jeep Cherokee - 5 spd, 4" lift, 33" BFG's - Rotary Tow Vehicle 1988 'Vert - In progress 1988 FC Coupe - Gretchen -The attention whore BEAST! I'm a sick individual, what's wrong with you? I'm pure Evil I'm still insane, in the best possible way. I think Brian's idea of romance is using lube. Your rage caused the meteor strike in Russia. The Antichrist would be proud of his minion. You win with your thread. Most everything It's a truck with a steel gate on the back. Just a statement of fact Motec M820, AIM dash, ported 13B-RE Cosmo, 6-spd trans, 4.3 Torsen, custom twin wg fully divided mani, Custom 4" split into 2x 3" exhaust, Custom HMIC, Custom custom custom custom I like to welder stuff.... No Bolt-ons allowed. Dyno'ed @ Speed1 Tuned by me - 405rwhp on WG.... WM50 cuming soon. *-Angry Motherfcker Mode ENGAGED-**

10-04-2009, 11:32 AM	#13
MrNizzles The Newbie Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 13 Rep Power: 0	ok well a gt60 single turbo setup isn't quite what I got (maybe apples to pears instead of apples to apples), but yeah, 10psi on bnrs is like 12 on stock twins which is still bad.

10-04-2009, 12:08 PM	#15
SPICcnmFD Rotary Fanatic Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: B'ham, AL Posts: 329 Rep Power: 18	At 10psi on BNRs you are basically as safe as you are with the stock twins, the turbos flowing more isn't going to be the problem, frankly because at 10psi there isn't much difference. It's the other mods or something going wrong that will be dangerous. I will say you need to look at getting a PFC as soon as possible and running it at 10psi until you get some more supporting mods. __________________ 1993 Rx-7 SM2 #11 At the local AutoX: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VOSQkkSLQs Speed for Sale shootout 2007: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JiqlyAkGmpg A few laps at Barbers: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_h5q...x=0&playnext=1