My "D" series 20B is now BUILT!!!

[Herblenny]

Here are pictures of my built 20B.



If you look at the cart in the back, there is another 20B that's ran on a stand..













OEM 2 piece 2mm seals, REW exhaust sleeves, touched up intake ports, lapped irons and housings, All "D" series stuff except for one rotorhousing from a # series..

Builder is my long time friend/rotary engine builder Luis Canizales. Luis has been buiilding rotaries since early 70s.. and built his own lap table and each engine he builds gets cranked on an engine stand. He knows things about rotaries that some have no clue on.. And even after my 4 years of researching on 20B.. He told me things that opened my eyes.. He also owned most old school rotaries and has an R100.. which he is considering to bring it to DGRR 09..

If you want him to build your engine, he's not cheap... but also not insanely expense. What you pay for his time, is WELL worth it. I always say.. If you want an engine that will last and built right, you could contact him.. His number is: 256-458-8900

[sk8world]

Looking nice! Luis is a good guy...

[Red Dragon]

Cool is this the one that you brought up to No Limit? And I may be giving Luis a call sometime within the next few weeks (probably sometime after DGRR)

[Herblenny]

Originally Posted by Red Dragon

Cool is this the one that you brought up to No Limit? And I may be giving Luis a call sometime within the next few weeks (probably sometime after DGRR)

No.. Its my other 20B

The one at No Limit is a mock up 20B for designing manifold and such.. Once Todd is done with the engine, that one will be turned into NA 20B (# series). The "D" series pictured above will accompany with Turbonetic T78BB single. I'm hoping to make 600-700RWHP.

[-xlr8planet-]

just wow...

[To_Slow]

Looking good ... What car is it going in?

[Judge Ito]

nice build... did you bake on a thermal barrier coating on the side housings after they got lapped? once they get lapped, they loose the gas nitride coating that mazda puts on them.. pettit racing usually adds the thermal coating for me.. i really stay away from lapping side housings.. i try to find excellent ones for a build.. if i have no chocie then i lapped them, and get them coated..

[Brent]

Looking good Phil!!!

[Herblenny]

Originally Posted by Judge Ito

nice build... did you bake on a thermal barrier coating on the side housings after they got lapped? once they get lapped, they loose the gas nitride coating that mazda puts on them.. pettit racing usually adds the thermal coating for me.. i really stay away from lapping side housings.. i try to find excellent ones for a build.. if i have no chocie then i lapped them, and get them coated..

Well, the whole nitride coating thing was an issue for me when I first found out about lapping.. But I've seen feedback with people who haven't re-nitriled after lapping and they haven't seen any ill affect.

This same question was asked not so long ago at Rick Engman's shop. The answer was that Rick laps even new irons as they are not perfectly flat... And they also don't nitrile after lapping and seen no ill results. Apprently nitrile coating also leaves unevenness to the housing so re coating after lapping seem counter productive...

In my opinion, nitrile coating seem more post production storage than actual function. As I was told the coating does come off the engine after so many miles... But it does help with rusting of the iron housing.. But who knows..

[Herblenny]

I didn't want this thread to be about lap or not lap...
But..
First people need to know what is lapping before we could continue on with this topic. Because I've seen so called lap irons that looks like someone took a sand belt. Also, lapping isn't for those with deep scratches and wanting to get rid it... But to get the iron flat as possible.. In order to do this, you need a machine that is perfectly flat and cuts at a very VERY slow rate.. My builder would cut min. of 30 mins to couple of hours to cut an iron.. And all aspect of the iron is measured afterward.. He will not build an engine if its out of spec... nor would lap the iron unless the owner knows that it will be out of spec.. If a builder who said it was lapped and uses it without spec and with out of spec, then I'll be worried. My irons were perfectly flat in all direction. Not even a thousandth of an inch filler will slide thru.. And I've visually verified this as my builder showed it to me after lapped.

Bottomline, there is a lot of mis information and good information floating around the internet.. Its each of our own decision to listen to whom and do what we please.. I did my search and made sense to me about lapping.. Also, top builders such as Rick Engman, people at Racing beat, and few others in the country has a lapper to flatten the irons... All those who laps, their reasoning makes sense to me.. So, I lap... I'm sure many engines have survived without lapping and reasons could be given to NOT lap.. Again, I guess it all comes down to what each of us believes in and what its worth... Bottomline, 200-300 dollars to lap an engine isn't too much to some and a lot to some.. But if people really worry about money, hell, I guess they could build their own engines. Bottomline, I'm paying for his experience, his results over 30+ years, and his time. I guess it similar to going seeing a surgeon for a procedure.. One who has years of experience with positive results or someone who just got out of their residency..

[SPICcnmFD]

I have to back the lapping. The two most experienced and knowledgable people I know which is Luis and another guy who was big into rotaries for a LONG time are far it when reusing irons. The key from what I understand is not to take to much off when you are lapping which leaves some of the nitride coat/treatment on the irons. I understand it to be a treatment more than a coating that actually soaks into the pores of the metal.

That's just my opinion and understanding on the matter take it for what you want.

[Herblenny]

Here is an information I found..

A method for producing a wear-resistant apex seal of a Wankel type rotary engine, comprising the steps of spraying an atomized self-fluxing alloy comprising a base alloy selected from the group consisting of nickel based alloy, nickel-chrome based alloy, and cobalt-chrome-molybdenum-iron based alloy and at least one self-fluxing component selected from the group consisting of boron and silicon on at least a portion of a base metal selected from a group consisting of soft steel, structural steel, cast iron, cast steel, copper, a copper alloy and Monel metal for forming a coating thereon, fusing said coating at a temperature ranging from about 1,050°C to about 1,250°C, and subsequently heating said coating at a temperature of about 570°C. in the presence of a bath of molten potassium cyanate for a period of time from about 60 to about 120 minutes for forming an outer layer of metal nitride...... in which said coating is about 0.3 to 1.0 mm thick.

So, 0.3mm is about 0.011inches.. So, I guess if you don't cut more than that, then you still have coating on the irons...

[Judge Ito]

Originally Posted by Herblenny

Well, the whole nitride coating thing was an issue for me when I first found out about lapping.. But I've seen feedback with people who haven't re-nitriled after lapping and they haven't seen any ill affect.

This same question was asked not so long ago at Rick Engman's shop. The answer was that Rick laps even new irons as they are not perfectly flat... And they also don't nitrile after lapping and seen no ill results. Apprently nitrile coating also leaves unevenness to the housing so re coating after lapping seem counter productive...

In my opinion, nitrile coating seem more post production storage than actual function. As I was told the coating does come off the engine after so many miles... But it does help with rusting of the iron housing.. But who knows..

I have seen some premature wear of sideseals on some side housings that were lapped. the lapping job was done extremely bad.. i'm sure your builder did a great job according to what i read.. looking forward to seeing the progress on your build...

[Judge Ito]

herblenny... didn't mean to throw a monkey wrench on your thread... let's get going with this build.. in what car are you installing this 20B in?

[sk8world]

Good to see you on here Ito.. Lets get the rest of the drag guys over here also....

On the lapping thing.. I was talking with Glen (AZR) and they grind, not lap every plate that comes in new or used...

On my current plates, I took them along with my center section (for balancing) down to LUIS to have lapped. He speced them and said they didnt need it.. Impressed me that he could have made an extra $200-300 off me but was honest enough to send me on my way..
+1 for Luis.

Now if he would just let me take that RX3 home...