Moronic Tuning "Advice" WARNING! (Related to RX7Club)

[RICE RACING]

http://www.rx7club.com/showthread.php?t=946182

Quote by Lawyer

"I have never seen any real world proof of injecting pre compressor gives any benefit. There is plenty of speculation on the subject but very little proof, theory can only go so far... If you have proof post it up please.
Also using an IAT to measure after the compressor to show "gains" is flawed from the get go as im sure most of you know already.

Water should be directed to the combustion chambers so it can do what it needs to do, cool combustion. The best way to inject an A/I is port injection. Injecting before the throttle body does no distribute the water equally depending on manifold design. Water DOES NOT flow like air.



WHAT A TOTAL IDIOT !!!
WONDER WHY BDC HAS SUCH A FOLLOWING WITH TOTAL MORON'S LIKE THIS FLOG POSTING CRAP LIKE THIS!!!!

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/vbulletin/...t=1590&page=15

Stupid bastard needs to read this ^ thread for his "proof", only 10,000+ others know about it.

I openly blame BDC and HC for brain washing (whatever brains are left) of these types of IDIOTS who frequent that forum, searching for advice! IT NEEDS TO BE SHUT DOWN or at minimum derided at every opportunity so newbies are not scammed into reading their dribble let alone thinking their "advice" is based on any type of reality.

The internet & some forums has allot to answer for

That whole section needs to have UN sanctions imposed against it and nuked out of existence !

There is no such terminology as AI! I have never ever herd of that until those DUMB AND DUMBER CUNTS named HC and BDC started shitting on and on and on and on and on about it and themselves! BOTH OF WHO DONT HAVE RUNNING CARS!!!!!!!! OR ANY PROOF OF THEIR OWN!!!!!!!!! OR ANY RELEVANT ENGINEERING QUALIFICATIONS!!!!!!!!!!!!! do i need to go on??????

It' is called WATER INJECTION you dummies ^ !!!

When you get one of your cars to actually run! and hold a piece of paper someone other than your forum qualifies you as having achieved a minimum educational standard in this field then please shut your arse and go back under the rocks from which you collectively came from.

Leave the real MECHANICAL ENGINEERING to us and STOP making people even dumber than what they are for needing to be tortured reading your crap.

[TitaniumTT]

And they call ME Foul mouth Pete

[RICE RACING]

Originally Posted by TitaniumTT

And they call ME Foul mouth Pete

yes.

I know the internet/forums are for the lowest of the low on the food chain of nobodies generally but it still shits me that these people (Brian Dumbass Cain BDC, and HC Howard Clownman) can type till their fingers bleed and basically just like HITLER lead a whole forum nation into an insanity of blind faith.......... based off what exactly???????

The rantings of a couple of deluded moronic leaders, who have achieved nothing, just words and hot non intercooled air.

Makes me sick that site and knowing that they prey on the stupid and novices, who are looking for advice wikipedia google style but in the end are finding shit and in ample amounts over there

[RICE RACING]

They talk about Water Injection like they actually have a car that runs

Have won something with one

Have any type of proof to back up their rantings

Have customers who they have repeated their knowledge on with regards to this subject

Those POOFTERS have nothing, never ever had anything, never ever will have anything.

Leave the real engineering to people like us who are pioneers of this on these cars, we all know what we are doing! we all posses qualifications to know about it, we all have many examples of it working not only on our own cars but many customers cars, and have been doing it for decades. Much longer before you got an internets and a forum to shit on and on and on and on and on ...............

[rx71king]

so running w/i pre turbo is cooling the air that's is being compressed..? as well as the combustion chamber ...

[RICE RACING]

Originally Posted by rx71king

so running w/i pre turbo is cooling the air that's is being compressed..? as well as the combustion chamber ...

Yes,

It does multiple lots of work in the whole system and is one of the only injection points that ACTUALLY results in a net performance gain ironically.

Completely the opposite to that absolute internet idiot I quoted that set me off

[rx71king]

i will be running pre turbo this summer...thanks for opening my eyes on water..

[RICE RACING]

Originally Posted by rx71king

i will be running pre turbo this summer...thanks for opening my eyes on water..

No problem at all, you can see in the thread that you linked on the GAYclub forum that I have allot of experience in this and I am the one who pioneered the system that everyone else wants/tires hard to copy

I out of interest of real information being put forth give up allot of my own valuable parameters so others can benefit and enjoy the same as I do everyday I get into RICESP and show cunts how good rotaries can go, no excuses, no finger bleeding BDC styled or HC inspired rants on GAYclub.com....... just proper engineering and world leading results.

[RICE RACING]

This is another excellent link to post up on GAYclub! http://www.aquamist.co.uk/vbulletin/...ead.php?t=1924 There is a very high grade of contributions on that forum, some exceptional people and knowledge that obviously precedes Wikipedia and Google

Unlike GAYclub pay to play vendors we actually are Mechanical Engineers and have been doing water injection at all levels of motor sport for years n years, but hey maybe HC and BDC know best

[vex]

Originally Posted by RICE RACING

http://www.rx7club.com/showthread.php?t=946182

Quote by Lawyer

"I have never seen any real world proof of injecting pre compressor gives any benefit. There is plenty of speculation on the subject but very little proof, theory can only go so far... If you have proof post it up please.
Also using an IAT to measure after the compressor to show "gains" is flawed from the get go as im sure most of you know already.

Water should be directed to the combustion chambers so it can do what it needs to do, cool combustion. The best way to inject an A/I is port injection. Injecting before the throttle body does no distribute the water equally depending on manifold design. Water DOES NOT flow like air.

That's news to me. I thought water flowed exactly like a fluid... I guess I should go complain to my professor that he taught me incorrectly with incompressible and compressible fluid flow...

[NoDOHC]

A couple things to mention:

Water and air are both fluids, but the water has much higher density, thus if it remains in liquid form, it will tend to puddle at any change in direction (you will see fuel do the same thing).

The advantage of injecting before the turbo is that the turbo does a lot of the mixing of the water with the charge, also enabling it to evaporate as it leaves the turbo. The goal here is to have the water evaporate, taking heat out of the charge air.

The advantage of injecting post-intercooler is that the intercooler will do much more cooling (as the temperature difference between the charge air and the surroundings is higher than if the water had already been injected). This means that less water is required to achieve the same IAT, meaning that the water vapor displaces less of the oxygen in the intake air and thus more power can be obtained at the same boost level (the volumetric flow rate will remain equal, but the flow rate of oxygen will increase).

I have not seen a study done, but I wonder if injecting pre-turbo does the compressor any harm (high-speed blade contacts water droplet, causing deformation of the blade, resulting in fatigue failure over time).

I know back in the carb days, the blow-through carbs were preferred, as the fuel would erode the compressor over time.

For what it's worth Peter, I prefer technically informative posts over name-calling. It doesn't seem to help anyone's knowledge on the topic to learn about your opinion of the people who posted the information. Let the evidence stand for itself and let people form their own opinions.

[vex]

Originally Posted by NoDOHC

A couple things to mention:

Water and air are both fluids, but the water has much higher density, thus if it remains in liquid form, it will tend to puddle at any change in direction (you will see fuel do the same thing).

I understand that, but that's not what 'he' said. Both air and water flow the same. They are both fluidic in nature and as such have the exact same flow properties (IE taking the path of least resistance). Surface interaction and atomization are independent of that. They both adhere to the laws of momentum and energy indicating that the particles with higher mass are going to take wider arcs than particles of less mass (from a Euler perspective). However if you take a cylinder and account for the Re (or the Froude number if you're doing size enlargement and concerned with speed) you get the exact same flow independent of what fluid the cylinder is placed in:

I have not seen a study done, but I wonder if injecting pre-turbo does the compressor any harm (high-speed blade contacts water droplet, causing deformation of the blade, resulting in fatigue failure over time).

I know back in the carb days, the blow-through carbs were preferred, as the fuel would erode the compressor over time.

It could cause cavitation based on the impeller design and temperature of the water. I think it unlikely, but if the atomization is poor enough it could cause other issues as well cavitation being the most likely.

[NoDOHC]

Originally Posted by vex

It could cause cavitation based on the impeller design and temperature of the water. I think it unlikely, but if the atomization is poor enough it could cause other issues as well cavitation being the most likely.

I know that you know this, but to clarify the terms for those that may be confused, cavitation occurs in a liquid pump when either a dissolved gas is brought out of solution or the liquid evaporates. Both conditions occur under high vacuum on the impeller inlet. Liquid droplets in a normally gaseous fluid can't really be called cavitation.

I was more speaking of mechanical damage by fatigue loading.

[vex]

Originally Posted by NoDOHC

I know that you know this, but to clarify the terms for those that may be confused, cavitation occurs in a liquid pump when either a dissolved gas is brought out of solution or the liquid evaporates. Both conditions occur under high vacuum on the impeller inlet. Liquid droplets in a normally gaseous fluid can't really be called cavitation.

I was more speaking of mechanical damage by fatigue loading.

I was thinking that the sudden pressure drop across the surface of the impeller would cause the droplets to become gaseous and then collapse once exposed to additional pressure--but then again, does an impeller actually impart a pressure differential across the blades? The more I think about it the less likely it seems that they would. The only way I can think of this occurring is if it were deposited in a vacuum, induced into a gaseous state while maintaining surface integrity/tension of the droplet, only to collapse when exposed to the positive pressure in the housing of the turbo.

As for the fatigue loading I don't see that causing much of an issue either unless the injection point is unbalanced causing additional mass to only enter one specific location on the impeller.

[PercentSevenC]

I'm very interested in trying a purely mechanical pre-turbo water injection setup. From what I've read, compressor damage is just from erosion at the blade tips when the water isn't adequately atomized (and doesn't seem to be a particularly big issue). Nozzle selection is key here.

Now, what I want to know is how big a problem condensation is if you also run a conventional intercooler in addition to pre-turbo WI.