EFR Internal Waste-Gate Discussion

[RICE RACING]

Forgot to add, both these FD3S's accelerated as hard as the Lambo Gelato and the Ferrari 458 GT3 (both around ~600bhp cars).

The FD3S that ran rings around Rics RX8 is at a class mandated limit of 1350kg, running a holigner gearbox (stuffed into and around the stock FD3S gear box casing to remain within the rules!)... and they actually run limited power (said was around 400rwkw) as they have a power to weight parity formula.

Anyway just putting in some context behind just the 'dyno sheet mentality' like I was talking with the IPRA winning RX7 team just before the final race, the BS stops when you get out your stop watch and measure just how fast a car is at the end of the straight!!!!!!! that shit you can not make up or hide you are either powerful or not, end of story, and lots are powerful and durable.

No special gizz spec internet whore spammed latest turbo craze required............ Ironic ? no not really, its always been the same! Moral go to a track, talk to cuuuuuunts who do this and see what works, it's pretty simple. Not saying this turbo is shit either, just its maybe not being given the best chance, IMHO his car did nothing at WTAC either especially after being hyped up and excuses given for 'lower reading dyno' maybe it just makes fuck all power, and its not as if todays race was a 12 hour race nor was WTAC either... so same track same competitors same rules and his was the slowest rotary around (turbo'd) those are the facts as I witnessed them.

Qualifying Results
Massel FD3S (2 seconds a lap faster) v's RS RX8
http://racing.natsoft.com.au/6358719...920.88Y/View?5

In the actual race (it was 3 second a lap slower)
http://racing.natsoft.com.au/6358719...20.88Y/View?28

IPRA winner (great little car and top people owning and running it!)
This is a 1st Gen RX7 that weighs in at 950kg and makes a whopping 174rwkw!
http://racing.natsoft.com.au/6358719...20.88Y/View?32

[Turblown]

Ric isn't real concerned with making a lot of power, his first priority is reliability. I know he requests the engines be tuned very safe, and is probably running considerable less boost than most of the competition. Don't get me wrong I know there are some areas for improvements on his cars, but everyone has different priorities.

Back to the EFR stuff.... I am pretty sure an IWG EFR will not fit a RHD car, but I will double check when I get a chance( been swamped). I did notice that the 7670 IWG( only one that I can see fitting down low, as it runs a much smaller compressor cover than the 8374 or 9180), will require a custom waste-gate actuator bracket, as BW doesn't allow full 360 clocking off the unit.

P.S. Nate I will call you back tomorrow.

[Monkman33]

Originally Posted by Turblown

I did notice that the 7670 IWG( only one that I can see fitting down low, as it runs a much smaller compressor cover than the 8374 or 9180), will require a custom waste-gate actuator bracket, as BW doesn't allow full 360 clocking off the unit.

P.S. Nate I will call you back tomorrow.

This shouldn't be too much of an issue. If(when) Linder Power Systems comes up with a good solution, maybe he can make a few for you. Chances are he will make them all snazzy and sexylike. But much like all my projects, That one will be a long ways off, and you'll probably already have a solution by that time.

Don't worry Elliot, I'll be waiting by my phone like a giddy high school girl.

[Prodigy]

I'm thinking for my future single setup of going with a manifold much like Rice's short as possible but utilizing the IWG BW to keep things simple, less potential failure points and compact, one issue will be that my car is RHD, but i think ifI got the compressor in hand and had a manifold locally built, I *think* (or rather, want to think) it can be done...


J.

[RICE RACING]

Originally Posted by Prodigy

I'm thinking for my future single setup of going with a manifold much like Rice's short as possible but utilizing the IWG BW to keep things simple, less potential failure points and compact, one issue will be that my car is RHD, but i think ifI got the compressor in hand and had a manifold locally built, I *think* (or rather, want to think) it can be done...


J.

Without wanting to read like HC!

Flow priority is far more important than shortness of pipes. The BIG problem you have with short manifolds is heat, fitment, durability.......... nothing dies faster than a short manifold and its allot more stressed than a longer one I find.

The turbine entry flanges do not last very long, especially on a divided unit, they warp and the center section gets eaten away and good luck keeping a gasket alive long term there too.

On turbo rotaries for a while now I have not bothered with divided entry turbine housings 1) they are not durable 2) they are a nightmare to keep a gasket up too 3) they are not really needed much for turbine response 4) they are way too heavy!

For rotaries the single entry Tial turbine housing is the only thing that is durable and will last I have found.

[Mitchocalypse]

Originally Posted by RICE RACING

Without wanting to read like HC!

Flow priority is far more important than shortness of pipes. The BIG problem you have with short manifolds is heat, fitment, durability.......... nothing dies faster than a short manifold and its allot more stressed than a longer one I find.

The turbine entry flanges do not last very long, especially on a divided unit, they warp and the center section gets eaten away and good luck keeping a gasket alive long term there too.

On turbo rotaries for a while now I have not bothered with divided entry turbine housings 1) they are not durable 2) they are a nightmare to keep a gasket up too 3) they are not really needed much for turbine response 4) they are way too heavy!

For rotaries the single entry Tial turbine housing is the only thing that is durable and will last I have found.

What's your definition of durable? Like holds up well for people beating the shit out of their cars every weekend at the track? Outlasts the engine? Lives through a few oil changes?

[RICE RACING]

Originally Posted by Mitchocalypse

What's your definition of durable? Like holds up well for people beating the shit out of their cars every weekend at the track? Outlasts the engine? Lives through a few oil changes?

People's definitions are very different especially on the internet.

The problem with turbo rotaries used in road cars is if it is set up to be efficient then it will run a high exhaust gas temperature. When you run it at 0.9 Lambda say and at a constant 100kmh you will see a high temperature and as a result the exhaust parts start to eat them selves (as you see on any turbo rotary)... ever seen what a FD3S turbo manifold looks like? Basically after 50,000km road use only these parts are scrap.

On a single turbo I have never seen any manifold last more than 30,000km (or 15+ BDC and HC engine rebuilds!). These effects get compounded if you do any sort of real power utilization (say 2% duty) at full load and power.

If you add power to the equation then its even worse as the effects are worse, high temperature combined with high pressure and cycling of temperature from high to low, pre load on the metal gasket diminishes over time then they get eaten along with the mating flange surfaces = in the end a fucking nightmare. The only things that work are gasket less, while they are not perfect they are 'durable'.

I got sick and tired of resurfacing all types of manifolds (machining is my profession among many!) and seeing all of this shit over the years. This is why rotaries are fucked! the same problem occurs in piston cars but the time is about triple to the time of failure!

p.s. most people never talk about this cause they NEVER have owned them long enough or had an engine last that long LOL....... it is an issue, I'm sure I am not the only one to experience it

[Turblown]

We've got these in divided also, but I almost always run an open volute gasket, even on twin scroll turbo systems;

http://www.turblown.net/store/index.php?productID=80

[Turblown]

Dyno this weekend!

More info/pixs etc;

http://www.turbosource.com/BorgWarne...ts-fd3siwg.htm

[TitaniumTT]

I think this is the key here

Love it... interested to see some numbers Elliot. What turbo is it again?

[FerociousP]

Originally Posted by TitaniumTT

I think this is the key here

Love it... interested to see some numbers Elliot. What turbo is it again?

8374

Pay no attention to the random smattering of parts. This is mid transition. Proper TID, shielding, etc to come later.

SO MUCH ROOM!

[TitaniumTT]

This isn't you car is it, Paul?

[FerociousP]

Nope. I've just got a rx8 with light mods for track use so I can get some HPDE under my belt.



This is my friend Jacob's who is in Nashville also. I did make the hard lines for the coolant tho! Stainless!

(Wastegate actuator had to be moved due to orientation)

[jacobcartmill]

well i finally have some info on this:

i was driving the car with the catalytic converter installed, and the boost didn't go over ~10psi. it opened at ~6psi and seemed to creep to about 10 and not go over that in 3rd and 4th gear.

so, last night i swapped out the cat with the straight pipe, and the internal wastegate is getting overrun at peak torque. the boost shoots up quickly and uncontrollably at 5500rpms and hits my 13psi boost safety fuel cut. i am going out shortly to raise the boost cut to 17psi and see if the boost gets up that far.

i had the pre-load set at 6mm initially, and the boost shot up, so i unloaded it down to 2mm and it does the exact same thing.

we also tested the wastegate with my air compressor to verify that it's opening fully. here's a video:
Wastegate movement - YouTube



TL;DR EFR IWG not keeping up.

[jacobcartmill]

i did some GIMP'ing and overlayed two screenshots of the wastegate rod and arm fully open and fully shut, and it looks like the angles are within spec.

also used the measuring tool in GIMP to measure the wastegate arm angle.

wastegate arm is exactly as the borg warner installation manual says it should be at full stroke (~50 degrees), and of course the point of view isnt perfect, but it's close enough: