20b Installs

[Bryan@BNR]

well lets put things into perspective here.

20B engine $4000
management $1700 (that is a bare harness not already loomed out)
building engine with BT sleeves ported with new seals dowel pins ect. $5000 minimum
fuel system (pump, injectors, regulator) $650
good clutch $750
subframe, $1000-1500
turbo kit with manifold turbo and external gate (name brand) $3000
full exhaust with custom down pipe $1000
LS1 Coil/ignitor packs $500

Alright that is around 19K in parts and that doesn't include labor. Shops that work on cars have to have mechanic insurance which is pretty expensive. This doesn't include all the labor for fitment and customized brackets, alignment, tuning bla bla bla. Totally huge undertaking for someone on a budget.

You can do it cheap with carbs and na w/o rebuilding the engine. But you don't know the condition of the engine unless you tear it down.

Bryan@BNR

[TitaniumTT]

Originally Posted by RotaryProphet

Regarding the first point: Definitely don't do 20b if price is an issue. Even $22k is twenty two freaking thousand dollars for an engine swap. You best have a hell of a budget.

As for the Megasquirt, with a few mods on board and doing all the soldering myself, I can have a seriously high powered EFI system for a hair over $300 - the price of the kit and wiring harness. So yes, a thousand dollar savings right there is good enough justification for me, and since I understand how to do it, it's worth it to me. That's just an example of what I'm talking about, not everyone can wield a soldering iron like i can, so not everyone is in a position to spend $300 for something people often spend $1300 on.

Sooooooooooo my Lambda sensor is more expensive than your entire ECU? I really don't understand mega-squirt at all. I've heard half the people say it's great, mainly becuase of the price tag, and the other 1/2 say they hated it becuase it's cheap, not flexible, and who in thier right mind wants to solder stuff to expand thier ecu? I'd rather pay for a code and plug it into my laptop.

As for you're budget fo $15,000 for parts............ I'd like to see an itemized list becuase I spent near that on electronics and fuel for my 13B-RE swap.

Originally Posted by gmonsen

Most people who know what's what will tell you that you should either have it done by a reputable shop that has done it many times and you pay through the nose or you know enough to do it yourself.

Gordon

Truer words have never been spoken.

BTW Gordon, still waiting to bump into you @ KDR. Last month we were supposed to be there on the same day but you canceled becuase of the rain. I drove from CT, what's your excuse

Originally Posted by War Eagle

Yes, but the customer is then left with an EMS that can only be supported by you and that's not a very enviable position to be in. At least with an off the shelf solution (read Microtech, Haltech, etc.) the customer can take the car to other mechanics that can work on/tune the car. Saving money is good, but sometimes going with a tried and true solution that costs more is better. I'm all for saving money but I wouldn't scrimp on the EMS that's for sure.

Completely agreed. I went for the ECU that could do what I wanted and had the service that I expected. I actually just sent off two maps to Motec West. Said, this one is closed loop boost control looking for 12 psi & boost spikes to 20psi. This one is open loop, should be around 40% but logs 100% duty cycle. Why? Please fix, explain it to me, and don't be surprised when I call you on Wednesday from the Dyno. By the way, is getting an 8 hour turn around time too short?

The answers were, I'll check it out and let you know, I'll check it out and let you know. I'll correct the parameters in the PID and give brief explainations why you were wrong, 8 hours is plenty, we're here to help, call whenever. Motec is far and away the BEST service and the BEST product. I'm not saying everyone should go out and grab one, but for me and my limited ECU working knowledge, it seemed the obvious choice from a service point of view. Can MS give you that?

Originally Posted by Bryan@BNR

well lets put things into perspective here.

20B engine $4000
management $1700 (that is a bare harness not already loomed out)
building engine with BT sleeves ported with new seals dowel pins ect. $5000 minimum
fuel system (pump, injectors, regulator) $650
good clutch $750
subframe, $1000-1500
turbo kit with manifold turbo and external gate (name brand) $3000
full exhaust with custom down pipe $1000
LS1 Coil/ignitor packs $500

Alright that is around 19K in parts and that doesn't include labor. Shops that work on cars have to have mechanic insurance which is pretty expensive. This doesn't include all the labor for fitment and customized brackets, alignment, tuning bla bla bla. Totally huge undertaking for someone on a budget.

You can do it cheap with carbs and na w/o rebuilding the engine. But you don't know the condition of the engine unless you tear it down.

Bryan@BNR

Tearing down a used engine is something that everyone should do. My first used engine made good compression so I left it alone. 5 hours later a carbon locked side seal got fragged and wiped out a front rotor and housing. Had I broke it down and cleaned it, that motor would have lasted. So, factor in a minumum rebuild of what............ $2,000 in parts plus labor - $4k+ plus the cost. The engine alone is at $8,000 before it has a turbo, fuel system, clutch, etc etc etc.

[RotaryProphet]

Originally Posted by TitaniumTT

Sooooooooooo my Lambda sensor is more expensive than your entire ECU? I really don't understand mega-squirt at all. I've heard half the people say it's great, mainly becuase of the price tag, and the other 1/2 say they hated it becuase it's cheap, not flexible, and who in thier right mind wants to solder stuff to expand thier ecu? I'd rather pay for a code and plug it into my laptop.

Yes, yes it is, apparently. The way I see it, there are basically three kinds of people. People who don't know, and don't want to know how an ECU works. Go get any of a number of big name ECUs, and get someone to install and tune it, and it'll work great and do what you want.

Then there's the people who don't know, but want to know how the ecu works; building it from scratch and tuning it yourself is a fantastic learning experience, and after a little bit, you'll actually understand what you're doing.

Finally there's the people who do understand. Those are the guys who use Megasquirt because of the openness. Want to add a new feature? Build a circuit for it, download the code, modify it to do what you want, and load it on your ECU.

The Megasquirt can be inexpensive because the default hardware is the bare minimum necessary to run almost any engine. Most ECUs are expensive because the default configuration has to support most every engine. Basically, most of the circuits are sitting idle most of the time. I'll freely admit that the Megasquirt isn't for everyone; actually, if you're not sure, then it's probably not for you. But really, we've strayed off from my original point in this post, which was that a lot of people vastly overpay for parts, when cheaper alternatives exist that work just as well... sometimes better.

[Herblenny]

RotaryProphet,

Can you start a new thread about Megasquirt and maybe write up an MS101 or something?? I've heard about it but that's about it..

[RotaryProphet]

Originally Posted by Herblenny

RotaryProphet,

Can you start a new thread about Megasquirt and maybe write up an MS101 or something?? I've heard about it but that's about it..

I can probably accomplish that; let me get some information organized, and I'll see what can be done.

[TitaniumTT]

Originally Posted by RotaryProphet

Yes, yes it is, apparently. The way I see it, there are basically three kinds of people. People who don't know, and don't want to know how an ECU works. Go get any of a number of big name ECUs, and get someone to install and tune it, and it'll work great and do what you want.

Then there's the people who don't know, but want to know how the ecu works; building it from scratch and tuning it yourself is a fantastic learning experience, and after a little bit, you'll actually understand what you're doing.

Finally there's the people who do understand. Those are the guys who use Megasquirt because of the openness. Want to add a new feature? Build a circuit for it, download the code, modify it to do what you want, and load it on your ECU.

The Megasquirt can be inexpensive because the default hardware is the bare minimum necessary to run almost any engine. Most ECUs are expensive because the default configuration has to support most every engine. Basically, most of the circuits are sitting idle most of the time. I'll freely admit that the Megasquirt isn't for everyone; actually, if you're not sure, then it's probably not for you. But really, we've strayed off from my original point in this post, which was that a lot of people vastly overpay for parts, when cheaper alternatives exist that work just as well... sometimes better.

Well, I'm apparently the 2nd type of person. However, just to play devils advocate.... ok, stir the pot a little, can a megasquirt be configured to run a 13B-REW engine with the sequentials working properly, the electric OMP working properly, run closed loop boost control, closed loop Lambda control, Closed loop Idle control, run an e-fan, a fuel pump/ign relay, traction control, have a 10 position dial swtich for boost control, EMAP comps, log coolant and oil temps, oil pressure, fuel pressure, AIT's, MAP, TPS, EMAP, 14 different duty cycles and display it all on your laptop in any configuration possible while having CAN communications with a digital dash?

Again, you get what you pay for.

I would also like to point out that if you go to any proffesional level races, I highly doubt you'll see one MS, even landspeed challenges which are mostly individuals probably won't run them and some of these guys, one I know personally, has been around FI for the better part of 4 decades and can certainly wield a soldering gun wouldn't even touch them. His comment on Microtech, "Well I suppose you could fill it with concrete and use it as a doorstop, then it might be good for something," and we all know that microtechs are just fine for certain applications. Again, you generally get what you pay for.

[RotaryProphet]

Originally Posted by TitaniumTT

Well, I'm apparently the 2nd type of person. However, just to play devils advocate.... ok, stir the pot a little, can a megasquirt be configured to run a 13B-REW engine with the sequentials working properly, the electric OMP working properly, run closed loop boost control, closed loop Lambda control, Closed loop Idle control, run an e-fan, a fuel pump/ign relay, traction control, have a 10 position dial swtich for boost control, EMAP comps, log coolant and oil temps, oil pressure, fuel pressure, AIT's, MAP, TPS, EMAP, 14 different duty cycles and display it all on your laptop in any configuration possible while having CAN communications with a digital dash?

Again, you get what you pay for.

I would also like to point out that if you go to any proffesional level races, I highly doubt you'll see one MS, even landspeed challenges which are mostly individuals probably won't run them and some of these guys, one I know personally, has been around FI for the better part of 4 decades and can certainly wield a soldering gun wouldn't even touch them. His comment on Microtech, "Well I suppose you could fill it with concrete and use it as a doorstop, then it might be good for something," and we all know that microtechs are just fine for certain applications. Again, you generally get what you pay for.

Define "pay for". If you include "work for", then that's absolutely right; the components are cheap, the plans are free, you just have to put in some effort.

As far as the land speed guys, this team uses one: http://www.diyautotune.com/cars/cust...studebaker.htm - "AA/BGALT Record Holder as of SpeedWeek 2008"

So yeah, they're out there. But seriously; once you get into professional level stuff, the funding is outrageous; it being a thousand dollars or so cheaper than the next alternative isn't even a point anymore.

As for your theoretical setup; yes, a Megasquirt would be capable of all of that. It would require a few modifications, but it's within the board's capacity. Although a few of the items don't really make sense. Let's go down an itemized list:
run a 13B-REW engine - Main issue is secondary spark plugs with a correct split; Doable with minor modifications.

with the sequentials working properly - Would require a few simple general purpose IO circuits, or the general purpose IO board addon (talks to the ECU via CAN)
the electric OMP working properly - I assume this works via pulses? Regardless, the CPU could run a low frequency pulsewidth modulation system to do pulses, or a high frequency setup to run an analog voltage.

run closed loop boost control - Requires a very frequently installed mod

closed loop Lambda control - A feature of every Megasquirt

Closed loop Idle control - A stock MS will run any PWM, Stepper, or On-Off style idle valve just fine.

run an e-fan - Stock MS feature

a fuel pump/ign relay - Stock MS feature

traction control - Doable, and firmware exists for it; requires multiple VR sensor inputs; much easier with the GPIO board

have a 10 position dial swtich for boost control - There are firmwares that allow a multi-position switch, but seriously, are you going to map out 10 different boost curves?

log coolant and oil temps, oil pressure, fuel pressure , AIT's, MAP, TPS, EMAP - Most of these the ECU already knows about; but a couple of analog inputs exist on the board that can be used to log oil temp/pressure and fuel pressure, and display/transmit them

14 different duty cycles - This one confuses me. I assume you mean 14 different injectors, and their individual duty cycles, which still doesn't make a ton of sense to me, as that would involve 14 separate injector banks. But yes, with the router board you can run port fuel injection with individual cylinder fuel/spark trim on up to 16 injectors in any configuration; If you mean something different here, do clarify.

and display it all on your laptop in any configuration possible while having CAN communications with a digital dash? - Well, the Megatune software will lay out whatever you want, however you want, and as I mentioned earlier, the board supports CAN, so hooking up any number of CAN devices is rather trivial.

The ECU spec'd out there is non-trivial, as far as megasquirts go. You get into pin count limits and whatnot, but if we use the router and GPIO boards via CAN, which run about $200 each, then we have a sub $800 system which supports all of that, and requires very few mods to the actual MS board; the GPIO board supports all of the extra inputs/outputs necessary, and they're configurable in software.

[TitaniumTT]

Ok, so I'm impressed and admittadely a little surprised. So I went and downloaded the software. You cannot without being condemned for insanity say there is even the remotest possibilty of comparision between the two softwares, capabilities, and datalogging not to mention the support offered.

[ZachFD]

I wonder if it makes more sense to ship your car to puerto rico, have the job done there, and shipped back to the U.S....I bet the job would be done way quicker/easier lol

[Bryan@BNR]

Titanium.

You should turn the Jspec engine to TDC and then pour ATF in it and let it set. Then after a few days, rotate it and add ATF. After a rotation or so, that should loosen up the seals and break down the carbon build up.

I bought about 25 complete T2 engines that were low compression from a place in california and about 75% of them were carbon locked.

Bryan

[vex]

Originally Posted by TitaniumTT

Ok, so I'm impressed and admittadely a little surprised. So I went and downloaded the software. You cannot without being condemned for insanity say there is even the remotest possibilty of comparision between the two softwares, capabilities, and datalogging not to mention the support offered.

Yeah B, The megasquirt is a hell of a machine. The software is opensource so what you get is not necessarily what it has to be. If you were so inclined or had connections you could have individuals reprogram the software to be better suited/more user friendly/out of this world program ability, etc. It all depends on the LOE (level of effort), and aforementioned knowledge. I have enough knowledge to sit down and do it... but time is a biggggg factor for me. I don't have the time to sit down and solder the components together and then re-program the machine code and datalogging software, trouble shoot the bugs, etc. and still have my car together in time for my internship and/or school.

The benefit of the Megasquirt is that it's only limited by ones knowledge and ability to alter the hardware and software.

[GtoRx7]

Originally Posted by War Eagle

Yes, it would be at least $30,000. Most of us have significantly more than that invested. I like the Defined Autoworks kit if you don't need AC.

We offer a A/c and P/s kit now. Figured I would keep everyone updated

http://rotarycarclub.com/rotary_foru...ead.php?t=8162

Originally Posted by TitaniumTT

Well, I'm apparently the 2nd type of person.

Titanium, if I was at DGRR I would have voted for your FC too. That is a nice ass car you have there! Finding 385rwhp on seq. twins is a bit of a pain though. 360rwhp is the best power we have gotten out of a seq. twin setup. Your RE engine, depending on your port size, is mis-matched for making high power out of stock REW twins. So its going to be a up-hill battle.

[Herblenny]

Logan, The AC/PS kit is an work of art!! Fantastic job!!

I can't wait to get my 20B kit from you

Titanium, I agree.. And I was there and I voted for you You put great deal of work on that car!

[War Eagle]

Originally Posted by GtoRx7

We offer a A/c and P/s kit now. Figured I would keep everyone updated

http://rotarycarclub.com/rotary_foru...ead.php?t=8162




Titanium, if I was at DGRR I would have voted for your FC too. That is a nice ass car you have there! Finding 385rwhp on seq. twins is a bit of a pain though. 360rwhp is the best power we have gotten out of a seq. twin setup. Your RE engine, depending on your port size, is mis-matched for making high power out of stock REW twins. So its going to be a up-hill battle.

That kit looks very nice. And as I posted on the "other forum" I am very impressed with your detailed responses to posted questions. Shows your commitment to customer service

[classicauto]

Originally Posted by Herblenny

Logan, The AC/PS kit is an work of art!! Fantastic job!!

I can't wait to get my 20B kit from you

You won't be disappointed Phil, they do great stuff. Can't say enough about those guys!!