Stock top mount, beefed up...

[88turboii]

Originally Posted by sen2two

And no i havnt had it on a dyno. But I have used three different style intercooler set-ups on the stock turbo before this one (making this number 4). And from my own personal experience (my own set-ups and others), this is much better than a front mount. Most front mount "Ebay" intercoolers are poorly designed and hurt flow more than anything. look inside one and compare it to a well designed core and you'll see what i mean. Plus the widely used 2.5" piping hurts power more than it helps. 2.5" is MUCH to large for the stock turbo. again, most people also use a super large intercooler, further hurting the set-up. Now a correctly built V-mount will be better than what i did of course, but i dont see ANY front mount being better than a modified/aftermarket top-mount for the stock turbo.

Remember, one 90* bend is equal to 5' of pipe. Now add up length of pipe and all the bends, and the big core up front wich your air has to force its way through. what does that equal? a turbo that has to work twice as hard to make give the same amount of pressure. and a motor that has to wait twice as long to recieve it...

im with you. i used to have a front mount, 20x9" core wiht about 300whp.. then i picked up a 10AE, didnt feel like cutting it up and just found a deal on an ARC tmic. sure intake temps to go up in boost, and i lost maybe 10-20whp up top, but it makes up for it in torque and throttle response. spool is a lot faster and the intake temps generally stay under 120F, unless you are doing a lot of 1st/2nd gear pulls, like in autox. But on track days it works out great, due to the higher speeds and more flow through the IC.. after 20min sessions, the IC is cool to the touch

[sen2two]

Originally Posted by FerociousP

with those welding skills you could probably think of a good way to tilt the oil neck to not be as much of an interference.

Yeah, I was going to use the smaller 12a or renesis one at first and make something cool since they sit much lower. But when i had a FD manifold and TB on, the neck also has to be modified. And this is what i did then, Cut out a small flange and bolt it on. I am going to engrave my little logo in it also, but i havnt yet.

Originally Posted by 88turboii

im with you. i used to have a front mount, 20x9" core wiht about 300whp.. then i picked up a 10AE, didnt feel like cutting it up and just found a deal on an ARC tmic. sure intake temps to go up in boost, and i lost maybe 10-20whp up top, but it makes up for it in torque and throttle response. spool is a lot faster and the intake temps generally stay under 120F, unless you are doing a lot of 1st/2nd gear pulls, like in autox. But on track days it works out great, due to the higher speeds and more flow through the IC.. after 20min sessions, the IC is cool to the touch

Thats why i add a little water meth! its such a perfect combo!!!

[RETed]

Originally Posted by sen2two

and just to be clear, im not trying to battle it out with you. but you seem to have a little hater-ade in a lot of your posts. here and other places. never really see anything you like besides what you do... not open to new ideas???

I'm just stating my opinion...
What you think of my opinion, well...

I mention the difficulty in (TIG) welding cast aluminum, because...
I guess you can liken it to welding cast iron, but most weldors will not usually bother TIGing steel / iron - most would either blast it with a MIG or just stick it.
Due to the porous nature of the cast aluminum, TIGing this kinda material is not for the faint hearted or novice.
Blowing holes through cast aluminum, especially of this thickness (thinness? Is that a word?) is very easy, unless you really know what you are doing - you make it sound like any Joe Schmoe off the street can do it?

NO used shit - most expert weldors will agree that used welding equipment is a gamble.
This does not get you a tank - more money to buy or rent one...
Filling the tank with gas - more money...
Cart - well, I guess you can lug the entire welder around if you got the muscles for it...

http://www.millerwelds.com/products/tig/diversion_165/
The website lists it at a little over $1,600.
Looks like Miller dropped the power on their entry-level TIG.
Lincoln used to offer a TIG 175, but they don't list it on their website.
Miller used to have a 180 TIG?
http://news.thomasnet.com/fullstory/15631
But it looks like it got replaced by that 165.
20% rated duty cycle?
Geez...

Got bucks?
Go ESAB...
http://products.esabna.com/EN/home/a...ig_1500i2200i_

Back to the topic...
Seriously...
Not many of us can do such mods on their FC's like this.
That includes me.
That's my point.
Now, if you're going to offer the modded throttle body, couplers, and pipes for like $100?

I don't know why you're arguing about wrong pipe size and such?
That's not my problem.
If you're slapping on bad equipment on your car, it's your fault for doing so.

For the other guy who's claiming an aftermarket top-mount IC is superior...
Give me numbers.
"Cool to the touch after a hard run" doesn't tell me jack shit.

Sorry, I don't believe in butt dynos...
I can make your car "more responsive" just by changing the pressure in your tires.
Get the dyno numbers and we'll see how much of an advantage it is.
Right now, you're just telling us it-just-feels-better?
I'm just telling you to prove it.
Call me hater or whatever, but I wanna see numbers.
Sorry, I'm not into believing every Tom, Dick, and Harry's claims on the InTerNeTz...


-Ted

[TitaniumTT]

Originally Posted by RETed

For the other guy who's claiming an aftermarket top-mount IC is superior...
Give me numbers.
"Cool to the touch after a hard run" doesn't tell me jack shit.

Sorry, I don't believe in butt dynos...
I can make your car "more responsive" just by changing the pressure in your tires.
Get the dyno numbers and we'll see how much of an advantage it is.
Right now, you're just telling us it-just-feels-better?
I'm just telling you to prove it.
Call me hater or whatever, but I wanna see numbers.
Sorry, I'm not into believing every Tom, Dick, and Harry's claims on the InTerNeTz...


-Ted

I couldn't agree with this statement more. I especially hate when people say, I added a Jacob/MSD/Crane CDI box and it's so much more responsive, starts and idles smoother, pulls harder through-out the rpm range blah blah blah blah..... generally what's failed to be mentioned is at the same time the CDI box went on, so did new plugs and wires Yet all the credit is given to the CDI box..... I fricken hate that garbage. Show me a back to back dyno run on the same day, with the same map, and the same ambient temps then we'll talk. I say the same holds true for your 4 iterations of intercoolers. Yeah it's nice to be able to say, check it out, look what I did, it's so much more responsive. However, I want to see a back to back to back test of the stock TMIC, a FMIC with a REAL core, and this one. Then we'll actually know for sure.

As for the, cold to the touch after an auto-x run....... show me some datalog's please. I can show mine and I'll tell you exactely what my AIT's were throughout the entire run as well

Data= everything. I'll take one dyno run over a thousand ass dyno's anyday, the same goes for one test result vs a thousand expert opinions.

[88turboii]

Originally Posted by RETed

For the other guy who's claiming an aftermarket top-mount IC is superior...
Give me numbers.
"Cool to the touch after a hard run" doesn't tell me jack shit.

Sorry, I don't believe in butt dynos...
I can make your car "more responsive" just by changing the pressure in your tires.
Get the dyno numbers and we'll see how much of an advantage it is.
Right now, you're just telling us it-just-feels-better?
I'm just telling you to prove it.
Call me hater or whatever, but I wanna see numbers.
Sorry, I'm not into believing every Tom, Dick, and Harry's claims on the InTerNeTz...


-Ted

actually i do have some numbers...


these were posted over on the other forum a while back. Here is the dyno with the front mount.. BNR stage 3, boost turned all the way up, turbo was maxed trying to fill 2.5" piping. my IC piping runs were fairly straight too





and this was with teh stock TMIC at 15psi, i did not have the ARC at this time:



same setup except for a mild streetport from rx7world. Keep in mind, this is on the dyno with little to no air moving through the IC. and the tune was a lot richer. I am now running the ARC so the numbers should be even better


and it isnt cool to the touch after an autox session, its hot enough to burn you! lol But on track days on a road course it stays cool when you are actually at decent speeds. autox doesnt really work well with tmic location, not enough air flow

sent2to, sorry dont mean to jack your thread, but i think this is relevant

[vex]

Originally Posted by RETed

I'm just stating my opinion...
What you think of my opinion, well...

I mention the difficulty in (TIG) welding cast aluminum, because...
I guess you can liken it to welding cast iron, but most weldors will not usually bother TIGing steel / iron - most would either blast it with a MIG or just stick it.
Due to the porous nature of the cast aluminum, TIGing this kinda material is not for the faint hearted or novice.
Blowing holes through cast aluminum, especially of this thickness (thinness? Is that a word?) is very easy, unless you really know what you are doing - you make it sound like any Joe Schmoe off the street can do it?

NO used shit - most expert weldors will agree that used welding equipment is a gamble.
This does not get you a tank - more money to buy or rent one...
Filling the tank with gas - more money...
Cart - well, I guess you can lug the entire welder around if you got the muscles for it...

http://www.millerwelds.com/products/tig/diversion_165/
The website lists it at a little over $1,600.
Looks like Miller dropped the power on their entry-level TIG.
Lincoln used to offer a TIG 175, but they don't list it on their website.
Miller used to have a 180 TIG?
http://news.thomasnet.com/fullstory/15631
But it looks like it got replaced by that 165.
20% rated duty cycle?
Geez...

Off topic:
This is a local (VA/MD) shop that sells the 165 http://brwelder.com/indextemplate.cf...&SubCategory=3
Looks like they're redoing their site though.

Got bucks?
Go ESAB...
http://products.esabna.com/EN/home/a...ig_1500i2200i_

[Max777]

Seriously...
Not many of us can do such mods on their FC's like this.
That includes me.
That's my point.

-Ted

So basically, what you're sayin is that you're just pissed you cant do this and want to bitch about it...

...Seriously.



In case you're bored:

Originally Posted by RETed

I mention the difficulty in (TIG) welding cast aluminum, because... I guess you can liken it to welding cast iron

Welding cast alum is NOTHING like welding cast iron. Welding cast is a bitch and a half. It requires you to preheat the material, keep it there during welding, and then let it cool down over a period of DAYS... oftem involving wrapping it in insulation, and other weird methods.

Most welders will not usually bother TIGing iron - most would just stick it.

Do you know how much cast iron rod costs? Around $50 a carton... If they bought the rod, they need to use it to pay it off.

Blowing holes through cast aluminum, especially of this thickness is very easy, - you make it sound like any Joe Schmoe off the street can do it?

GTAW is NOT hard, maybe you just need more practice? Of course most people with even a little bit of sense will take a course or two at their community college before investing in an expensive machine like a welder.

I hear so many people bitch about how "They hate TIG welding". It provides the control of Oxy-Acetylene, but is so much more versatile. It's also one of the cleanest, and most relaxing welding processes out there. Every try doing overhead or vertical up SMAW? (Stick)

NO used shit - most expert welders will agree that used welding equipment is a gamble.

Buying anything used is a gamble, nuff said.

20% rated duty cycle?
Geez...

Can you even TIG for 2 min without pausing for readjustment? Most welds dont take over 2 min to do, unless you're doing some crazy thick metal, in which case you would buy a bigger welder. On a car, most metal only goes up to about 1/4 thick, or if thicker, it's normally very little sections of it. For the average hobby guy, a 20% duty cycle ain't that big of a deal, cause the wont even get near it half the time.

Case in point, this would be a perfect used welder to buy from someone who's upgrading.

[Flash]

Nice work. I don't think there's anything wrong with using what you've got and making it better, especially if the only real cost is a bit of effort. For your setup I think it's smart.

[FerociousP]

with those welding skills you could probably think of a good way to tilt the oil neck to not be as much of an interference.

[Roen]

The only problem I have for dyno runs comparing TMIC's and FMIC's is that the TMIC will lose some of it's advantage due to heatsoaking, sincce the car is not in motion.

A big fan doesn't help the situation that much either.

Personally, I'd like to give the TMIC a little bit of love, since I never stoplight race or drag race anyone. I'm usually on the track if anything. For an AutoX, I'd still run a VMIC or a FMIC because of the staging time, unless you're spraying something to cool down the intercooler before you start.

I'd find an aftermarket hood that has an even larger surface area (Anyone have measurements on the Odura/Odula or Knight Sports hoods) and use a larger intercooloer like the ARC, HKS or RE 1.5 to help with the cooling capacity.

You can always overcomplicate the system by using nitrous sprayers on the TMIC when staging, then using water and meth to further cool the charge. That should easily combat heatsoak, it's just annoying to do for a street car.

And nitrous is illegal almost anywhere on any autox/racetrack.

[Roen]

Ted, any ideas for a better way to simulate the airflow of car in motion besides the big fan?

It would give more accurate numbers in the TMIC vs. FMIC debate.

[classicauto]

You can do what we've done on dyno days here. Grab a piece of cardboard and make "hood scoop" for the IC. Stick a big squirell cage fan on the rad support and you have a nice air flow into the IC and about as close as you'll get to simulating it being on the road - as far as flow through the core is concerned.

[reaper]

i have a few questions for the OP-
would you be willing to do this for some one else?
if so, would you charge? how much?
what all would you want me to send to be modified?
thanks

[sen2two]

lol... this thread turned out pretty cool.

Im not going to waste my time trying to prove to some guy over the internet by paying for dyno time. I know from my own experience what works and what dosnt. and i'll leave it at that.

and i dont know why your sweating over a ESAB??? lol... Lincoln or Miller are the only 2 respected welders in the business.

-Keith

[RETed]

Originally Posted by sen2two

and i dont know why your sweating over a ESAB??? lol... Lincoln or Miller are the only 2 respected welders in the business.

This just shows me how inexperienced you are.
Lincoln actually has a bad rap by some experienced weldors.
And if this is jab at ESAB, you have no idea what you are talking about.


-Ted