Rotary Engine Failure due to Side Rotor/Side Rotor Housing Clearance..

[sk8world]

A little of subject here.... But sometimes I wonder if all the changes some builders make cause more harm. No builders specific here I speak of but I have scene many engines fail from some of these mods. From improper ports to adding over sized studs-dowels... I speced my current motor-build but decided not to have the rotors ground as they seemed close enough. I only wish I had did more reasearch on the rotor faces for high HP clearence.

My reason I state this as I have scene many motors on here lately some even stock (ports-everything) making sick power and out lasting some high dollar built ones. Mine was built from used housings and plates, rotors, no laping or grinding, no oil mods, no extra studs or dowels, center section balanced by Luis, all oem parts except ALS seals..making 617rwhp. Have 6500 miles so far and many drag passes. Not sure how long I expect to see it last with running it how I do. I believe having everything right from wiring, tune, fuel system plays a larger roll than some of these special engine mods made.. Just my thought..

Ok back on subject.....

[glenrx7]

Originally Posted by sk8world

A little of subject here.... But sometimes I wonder if all the changes some builders make cause more harm. No builders specific here I speak of but I have scene many engines fail from some of these mods. From improper ports to adding over sized studs-dowels... I speced my current motor-build but decided not to have the rotors ground as they seemed close enough. I only wish I had did more reasearch on the rotor faces for high HP clearence.

My reason I state this as I have scene many motors on here lately some even stock (ports-everything) making sick power and out lasting some high dollar built ones. Mine was built from used housings and plates, rotors, no laping or grinding, no oil mods, no extra studs or dowels, center section balanced by Luis, all oem parts except ALS seals..making 617rwhp. Have 6500 miles so far and many drag passes. Not sure how long I expect to see it last with running it how I do. I believe having everything right from wiring, tune, fuel system plays a larger roll than some of these special engine mods made.. Just my thought..

Ok back on subject.....

I agree with you Mike....... That is basiclly the point I was trying to make ..I am about as articulate as a 3 years old on acid...


Let me go back to the rotors hittting the walls.

1. yes shaft deformation is a main casuse .
2. you have to understand that when this engine gets "sandwitched together compressing the seals to a "stroke heighth" that is very small. Yes this is to keep the rotors "floating" but at high combustion it is easy to push the rotor side to side.

So, yes they can hit the plates with out having a bent shaft.


Mike, having clearnce rotors is an insurance policy I have seen engines make tons of power and then snap ...they have a bent shaft and the rotors have smacked the plates and it rebuild time ....rebuilt with clearnced rotors and they are making the same power yet lasting longer.

Rotor clearnce is not going to help much if you have a bad build or tuning wiring etc...It all has to come together to be right.

Mike....600 club, congrats dude I did not know you got that far.

[Bryan@BNR]

Glen. Don't always believe what you read!!! HAHA

[glenrx7]

From the man That designed it ...No why would I believe him ....Oh and I have seen it on an engine dyno myself under testing with yaw serveral times come on man ....

You have nothing to back up your statement... If so lets hear it

[Bryan@BNR]

Hold on let me go get my ASE certified Rotary Bible.

[sk8world]

Originally Posted by glenrx7

I agree with you Mike....... That is basiclly the point I was trying to make ..I am about as articulate as a 3 years old on acid...




Mike, having clearnce rotors is an insurance policy I have seen engines make tons of power and then snap ...they have a bent shaft and the rotors have smacked the plates and it rebuild time ....rebuilt with clearnced rotors and they are making the same power yet lasting longer.

Rotor clearnce is not going to help much if you have a bad build or tuning wiring etc...It all has to come together to be right.

Mike....600 club, congrats dude I did not know you got that far.

Thanks Glen...

[Bryan@BNR]

Glen.

I have taken apart 100's or rotary engines. That being said. I have never, ever seen a rotor make FLAT contact with the irons UNLESS it was so overheated the irons swelled so much that they made full contact with the rotors. The times that I did see rotor to iron contact (with no overheating, rotor or main bearing clearance issues), it was when the rotor tips made contact with the irons. That means the rotor journals weren't perpedicular anymore to the end plates. The rotor is going to go in the direction of the shaft lobe.

[Herblenny]

Originally Posted by glenrx7

Phill, wtf do you want ...You asked I gave you what you asked for

Glennn,

Thanks for the favor of explaining clearancing the rotor after pretty much I explained what it is after posting the RB article. What you did was not answer it in the beginning and pretty much said it was some top secret stuff you did to the rotors. Again, read what I've posted.

Originally Posted by glenrx7

Phill I am still not telling you what we do ....the fact is racing beat give the general idea...I said this

Jesus! Do you still think I give a damn if you gave me the detail specs or not?? Please read over.... as I NEVER ASKED FOR A SPECIFICS OF YOUR CLEARANCING YOUR ROTORS!!! I asked What Do you Clearance!! That's what I asked in the beginning.

The point is this. I think maybe you are going bit too far with this propreitary, secret stuff. I don't know if this is a marketing strategy or what not, but every builder has their own little way they do things. Is it proprietary as you speak?? Sure, I guess its their little secret of how they do things. But at this point, all I saw from you is slight arrogance that so called clearancing the rotor is essential/MUST for all rotors. Even though thousands of stock motors never got your so called clearancing have made tens of thousands of miles without it. So statistically, I and my builder's statement about how its NOT necessary is a CORRECT statement!!

Originally Posted by glenrx7

Why are you trying to make this personal ....I mean dude i have bent over backwards to help you guys when you needed it I have supported your forum but you attack me ....

no now I have to get in an argument with others that "clearly " using this is an opportunity to look good ...I was trying to help educate enthusists not my competitors.

I do appreciate you coming on here and supported the forum. But you should also see it as two way street. You might feel that you been helping me, but I also see it as I been helping you. Hell, even this thread as it seems like its gotten to be a pretty popular thread.

Second part of the quote above, I'm not sure.. Who do you think is using this 'opportunity to look good'?? I think at this point we are all having a conversation and clearancing the rotor isn't something that you came up with and you are not sharing specific measurements so I don't see how others are using this opportunity to make themselves look good?? **Before you state again that I'm asking you for your specific NUMBER.. I AM NOT!!!**

And finally, let me state to the public that I have nothing against you. I was bit irritated when you kind of blew me off and keep stating that its propreitary stuff. (By the way, proprietary in my mind is something brand new ie new technology or technique and I don't think you actually developed clearancing, you just have a specific amount you take off.) And after that, I think its you who mis-read what I've posted after that cause you to also attack me.. But I wouldn't really call it attack. Either case, Hope no hard feelings.. Just wanted to make sure you understood. Again, I am NOT asking for specific numbers

Personally, and this is my personal opinion (NOT PROFESSIONAL) I don't think it makes much difference to me as I have no intention of racing nor would I break down a stock motor to just get clearancing. If I was to build a motor that spin 10K for extended amounts of time than i would probably do so, whom I would get it done, I would consider Glen.

[Herblenny]

Originally Posted by Bryan@BNR

Glen.

I have taken apart 100's or rotary engines. That being said. I have never, ever seen a rotor make FLAT contact with the irons UNLESS it was so overheated the irons swelled so much that they made full contact with the rotors. The times that I did see rotor to iron contact (with no overheating, rotor or main bearing clearance issues), it was when the rotor tips made contact with the irons. That means the rotor journals weren't perpedicular anymore to the end plates. The rotor is going to go in the direction of the shaft lobe.

That's interesting Bryan. So statically you have seen 0 out of 100+ engine failure you've seen that was caused by rotor clearance issue?

I'm going to call Luis and see how many he has seen... I'm just curious..

[Herblenny]

I just got off the phone with Luis and asked him how many engines he has seen where clearancing was an issue.

He stated that he has seen about 8 race engines that was caused by clearance issue. And about 2 street driven car because of the issue. That's close to 30 years of him building engines... I'm guessing well over 300 engines? He didn't know exactly how many engine he broke down.

He also emphasized that 2 street driven cars were because the owners were revving beyond 8K as they were driven 'the hell out of those cars'. He also made a point to me that its very uncommon for engine that followed stock spec clearance will have issues when used on street. Also, he said its "waste of money" to do it on a street car as its NOT necessary.

[Bryan@BNR]

Originally Posted by Herblenny

That's interesting Bryan. So statically you have seen 0 out of 100+ engine failure you've seen that was caused by rotor clearance issue?

I'm going to call Luis and see how many he has seen... I'm just curious..

I have seen 2 or 3. One engine was in my other first gen that I ran 19 psi with a Greddy T88 on pump gas. The EGT's got up to 1800F and the compression springs collapsed. When I took it a part the rotor bearing was fine but the tips of the rotor in the front made tip contact with the irons and also the faces of the rotor kissed the rotor housing.

Alright. Now I will stop typing. I quit!

[dregg100]

i have side and compression face clearanced rotors in my "street" car...

but seriously guys, chill. everybody has their ways of building engines and their little "secrets." just let it go. let charlie's build thread be his build thread, not a bicker fest. i have alot of respect for both of you (phil and glen), but if you go back and read through this entire thread you will probably say wow.

goodluck with the engine charlie, cant wait to see it done. ill probably have you some numbers about the time you get your car done. lol

[charlies7]

Originally Posted by dregg100

i have side and compression face clearanced rotors in my "street" car...

but seriously guys, chill. everybody has their ways of building engines and their little "secrets." just let it go. let charlie's build thread be his build thread, not a bicker fest. i have alot of respect for both of you (phil and glen), but if you go back and read through this entire thread you will probably say wow.

goodluck with the engine charlie, cant wait to see it done. ill probably have you some numbers about the time you get your car done. lol

Thanks Masin,

I dont care about the bickering though, to me its informative and I hope others can get some good info from this thread.

I want to make a minimal 375 whp on my setup, 400 would be nice. Just be a quick little NA car .

[glenrx7]

Phil, in the begining I tried to get the point across that we are increasing the clearence that mazda already designed for stock outout...

I am far from arrogant becuase I did not want to go into a large discussion on how we do it ...I also did not want to post some elses explanation once you did it for me I felt it would not hurt to elaborate.

I have a track record that proves what I do works and I am going to live by that becuase it is tested. I do understand your point and i wish I would have handled it different , I kinda stay back usually due to the fact that this is one of the things I am not good at (discussing our techniques with out giving to much away).

I have had some really bad expirences when it comes to trying to discuss what we do. I have spent countless hours testing and studing rotary engines. I feel like I have earned my knowlage and it is very important to me.

Now to get to the issue at had, I would think if it is even a remote possiblity of having issues with clearence any builder would take precuasions to make sure it was no longer a risk even if it is a small risk. I would be arrongant if I said well i dont think it will happen therefore its not going to. Like for instance the rotors going from side to side under load, if it is even the slitest of possiblities would it not be a disservice to your customer not to atleast regonize that its possible and try and account for it????

My point is this, even the slitest chance of the rotors needing clearcence would it not be better to have the clearnce?? When you look at the over all cost of an engine the cost of clearncing is negligable. I am not arrogant in fact the only reason I am on here is to help the communitee infact that is why we do what we do. Tom and I as the owners of AZRR started this becuase we are selves could not find a builder that would fit our needs we both are rotor heads first

[Herblenny]

Glen, That's funny you said that... because this was your first respond when i wanted to clear up what you meant by clearancing rotors.

Originally Posted by glenrx7

Phill, its just not something I am going to discuss. I dont want charlie to feel like he cant share his project ...I am not going to elaborate on our processes.

I am not going to disagree with you about how you should of handled it from beginning.. but you continue to tell me to look back and read but I still don't see you answering my questions until I posted bit more details to what you might be doing.
Even in the most recent post..

Originally Posted by glenrx7

Phil, in the begining I tried to get the point across that we are increasing the clearence that mazda already designed for stock outout...

here is a question for you.. So, how many engines you broke down that was street driven and failure was due to clearancing??

I'm in a field where stats matter.. so, lets see the stats.

The thing is that, in order to be scientific and state that you have experience and so called 'track record' to prove it only makes me want to ask you more question. Why? because realistically I know in order to find out longevity and endurance of the engine it would take someone to put real world miles. Unless you been building engines since you were a kid and scientifically documented, I can't quite believe what you say. I mean its like when I had a chance to ask Ianetti about his seals.. I was surprised he said not to buy his seals for street use. And I know he's a scientist and I believe what he said to me.. which was, in the real world the engine experience far more variable than on the track.. And he pointed out to me that Mazda spent their time experimenting and came up with the seals..

Glen, I understand that this thread has turned into back and forth bickering. Maybe you misunderstood what I was asking and maybe I misunderstood what you are stating.. Who knows.. I know you keep mentioning about your secrets... Sure, I respect that, but maybe as a vendor/professional maybe you need understand that explanation vs. hard number is completely different. You don't need to be so defensive when what you might be doing is something that's already been done but spec might be slightly different. Who knows.. Hope you understand this time what I'm getting at.