weird oil leak - Page 2

jamespond24 · 03-31-2009, 12:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hades

used the uv/black light dye. It leaking from driver's side and passenger side at the front of the engine. Really think its the front cover and not the oil pan.

I know the front cover can be pain - but after you remove everything - how hard it is to replace the gasket?

You can't remove the front cover unless you unbolt the 19mm on e-shaft.(good luck with it, the flywheel bolt is easier to remove than the 19mm) Than after that you'll barely have room to get the 10mm bolt on the oil pan. My advice if it is leaking from the front cover try to torque the bolt on the front cover more and apply more silicone to the leaked area. Use a crap load of silicone if you have to. I would avoid ever taking the front cover off just to change the gasket which I use silicone instead on all my rebuilt.

Whizbang · 03-31-2009, 12:47 AM

i have never had an issue with the front pulley bolt. Ever.

jamespond24 · 03-31-2009, 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Low Impedance

i have never had an issue with the front pulley bolt. Ever.

How you do it? I still have hard time loosen the 19mm bolt eventhrough is it out of the car rather than along in the car.

David Jerome · 03-31-2009, 12:00 PM

I would rather replace the front cover gasket than the oil pan gasket. Call atkins and order yourself a mazdaspeed metal front cover gasket. No need for RTV and you can delete the oil crossover o-ring. The hardest two things when fixing the front cover are: 1. If the engine is original or has more than 25k miles on it, trying to get the front nut off can be a pain unless you have a 1" impact gun rated at over 1000ftlbs. My 600ft lb gun often doesnt have what it takes to remove the bolt even with 140psi of air going to it. The second thing which isnt really difficult but just annoying, is removing and reinstalling the AC compressor.

It is a much simpler job than the oil pan in my opinion. The one down side is resealing your oil pan, it is near impossible to reseal the area under the front cover correctly, you will likely end up with a small oil pan leak, but nothing that results in 1/2 cup of oil in 10 mins. A front cover leak can be dangerous, seen a car catch fire due to a bad front cover leak.

rx4ur7 · 03-31-2009, 01:23 PM

If you have 12k or over 12months, they probably will not cover it. Depends on your dealer. I have not been impressed with remans since early 90's. Quality just doesn't seem to be the way it once was. I will not warrenty the labor for them any longer. Seems they have too often been 12month motors. I am waiting to hear on what the Mazda Renesis remans are doing. This I am hard pressed to say because I am confirmed factory guy and Mazda had always been know for it's quality.

Back to original post:

Neither one is a fun job in the car. To me it’s 50/50. David is correct about original install eccentric shaft bolt. Max torque is 270N-m/28kg-m/200ft-lb. But I would like to meet the gorilla in the factory using the torque wrench. I have to borrow a 1in impact to get them off when out of the car. Since this a reman it shouldn't be too bad. You may be able to use the breaker bar against frame rail trick. see below.

On original factory motors I have been able to break them loose in the car with a six foot pipe on a breaker bar. Also have broken more that one breaker bar and socket or adaptor. Snap-on carries them in stock for me now. Much easier out of the car with the impact and flywheel lock. 1st and 2nd gens I was able to use a breaker bar have it set so that it is a couple of inches from the LS frame rail and hit the starter, couple of tries broke it loose. Disable ignition of course.

I have never had a problem with the mazda oem gasket on any of my client street cars motors that I have done. Trick is clean surface and torque on front cover bolts. I don’t use any extra sealant either. Not saying anything against metal.

AC compressor, helps if you have small hands. And don’t tighten one bolt until you get all four started.

I would say though that after you change it you will probably have a pan leak. So be prepared to go after that soon.

As stated above, be very careful about the keyway and the back thrust bearing. If the keyway comes out with the damper the bearing will have dropped. Best way I have found is to keep the key pushed in as you carefully remove the damper.

If this motor has a lot of miles on it you may want to think rebuild. This could just be the tip of the iceberg and it will be plaguing you with a lot of little (that’s a misnomer on this model) things. Nickel and dime on these is 500/1000. I don’t like charging double labor if I don’t have to. I have found that the FD can have a lot of sleeping dogs. But if you like working on it and like a lot of frustration more power to you. Just take your time and don’t try to cut corners or rush anything.

REVIT93RX7 · 03-31-2009, 01:34 PM

Probably dripping somewhere above the pan. Didi you spill any when filling?

hades · 03-31-2009, 06:54 PM

no spills.

The engine has 12-14K on a reman that was installed when I bought the car. The crappy thing is the car was in the air for while-brakes and dp and went out of warranty in the process. The mazda dealer here in Denton won't cover it. I don't know of other options or people to call to have mazda fix it. And I know all about scary dealer stories, but if I can get them to cover it then I will save a lot of time and money--hopefully.

Rotary Performance quoted $1000 for the front cover and oil pan. I have some more forced vacation next week so I may tackle it then. I am rolling it around in my head. Pay $1000 for job done right or try it my self, cry and cuss, but save money.

How careful do you have to be with the thrust bearings once the cover is off? I have read you need to be careful or you get the chance to rebuild the engine. But how careful do you really have to be? I read to keep the front of the engine in air to help out.

I have tried to read up on the other forum, but any advice or guidance is always welcome.

jamespond24 · 03-31-2009, 09:28 PM

As for the thrust bearing I use vaseline to hold it in place. My advice to double check it is the front cover ( I use to have the same problem but it end up the Turbo return lines that goes to the front cover had been leaking and it drip down the oil pan) Only reason I want you to double check cause tackling the fron cover job is not fum for the first timer.

rx4ur7 · 04-01-2009, 12:58 AM

That's a fair quote, about the same I charge. It's an ugly job even for those of us that do it all the time. Not my favorite to do in the car. A proper engine holder really makes it a lot easier. Although I am sure there are those that have used a 4X4 or big pipe and chain. Not really a job I would recommend for someone that doesn't have some backup and a lot of patience. Arie and the crew will treat you right if you go with them. Last I heard Dealerships in Tucson won’t take in any older rotary, pre 8, anymore.

If you do the front cover as long as you keep the keyway from coming out with the damper you shouldn't have a problem with the thrust bearing. If the trust sleeve is kept place the bearing shouldn't move. During assembly once lined up I pull the eccentric shaft forward to keep pressure on the bearing, done a few motors so it is second hand. Vaseline won't hurt.
It is critical it and is easy to get wrong. Don’t know how many home builds I have taken apart that had crushed bearings, even had a mana with one. Most all of these were before there were any forums though so there wasn’t as much help for DIYers. Factory school was about the only way to get any of the tricks back then. Instructor would point out, BTW you won’t find this in the factory shop manual. I’ll admit it I’ve crushed one, got distracted. At least I knew what was wrong when I checked end play before putting front cover on.

Since the UV showed what it did and that is a common failure point it probably is the gasket. My experience has been that the hoses are pretty obvious when they leak. As you have easy access now easy enough to see if there is any oil in them any way.

SPICcnmFD · 04-01-2009, 08:17 AM

This doesn't help much. But according to the guy that I got my car from he had to replace the same gasket on the engine that had approx. the same amount of miles when he bought the car.

Looks like Remans have a good chance of having problems. I know coolant seal failure is common, which is what eventually happened that engine.

Whizbang · 04-01-2009, 11:27 AM

i would think that its the little o-ring in between the front cover and the front iron. Its on the same side of the engine, and sees full oil pressure. Might have helped caused the leak to form. Hard to say. Just a theory. You can see the area for in the picture below.

rx4ur7 · 04-01-2009, 12:30 PM

But failure of that o ring usually only causes lack or loss of OP. Will not lead to an external leak. Failure of gasket at the oil pan is high % especially if the cover bolts are not torqued correctly and one other little thing, the gasket usually sticks out on both sides on the bottom, the excess should carefully be removed. Another one of those factory school hints. Earlier round motors had a more forgiving OPan gasket, but it could still induce a leak over time. Newer no gasket and new gaskets seem to be more prone to leak issues when the front cover gasket isn't trimmed.
Some where someone said they don't use a torque wrench except for a couple of places. I was able to do that also with everything pre 93. With the FD and Renesis I use them on just about everything. Too much work involved to have something silly go wrong. Doesn't really take you that much longer.

Whizbang · 04-01-2009, 12:35 PM

exactly why i thought it was "far fetched" but an option.

hades · 04-01-2009, 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Low Impedance

i would think that its the little o-ring in between the front cover and the front iron. Its on the same side of the engine, and sees full oil pressure. Might have helped caused the leak to form. Hard to say. Just a theory. You can see the area for in the picture below.

no picture - want to see.

hades · 04-10-2009, 07:46 AM

I decided to drop the car off at Rotary Performance yesterday. If the engine was blown I would have dropped the enigne and rebuilt it my self - couldn't hurt anything. But since it wasn't I decided to let the pro's do it and learn about engine covers another day.

I want to get a hold of a blown small block and tear it down to get my hands dirty.

I should have the car back in two weeks.

03-31-2009, 12:47 AM	#17
Whizbang Respecognize! Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Δx = ħ/2Δp Posts: 3,190 Rep Power: 20	i have never had an issue with the front pulley bolt. Ever. __________________ For current updates and event coverage check out Follow on Twitter! @WhizbangRally Whizbang Rally's Webpage \| Facebook

03-31-2009, 12:00 PM	#19
David Jerome RCC Contributor Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 713 Rep Power: 18	I would rather replace the front cover gasket than the oil pan gasket. Call atkins and order yourself a mazdaspeed metal front cover gasket. No need for RTV and you can delete the oil crossover o-ring. The hardest two things when fixing the front cover are: 1. If the engine is original or has more than 25k miles on it, trying to get the front nut off can be a pain unless you have a 1" impact gun rated at over 1000ftlbs. My 600ft lb gun often doesnt have what it takes to remove the bolt even with 140psi of air going to it. The second thing which isnt really difficult but just annoying, is removing and reinstalling the AC compressor. It is a much simpler job than the oil pan in my opinion. The one down side is resealing your oil pan, it is near impossible to reseal the area under the front cover correctly, you will likely end up with a small oil pan leak, but nothing that results in 1/2 cup of oil in 10 mins. A front cover leak can be dangerous, seen a car catch fire due to a bad front cover leak. __________________ David Jerome Broker for Speed For Sale LLC (David@SpeedForSale.com) (Pre-owned RX7/sports car sales & new parts sales/installs/tuning) PM me about low priced, high quality port work

03-31-2009, 01:23 PM	#20
rx4ur7 Rotary since 1972 Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Tucson Posts: 231 Rep Power: 17	If you have 12k or over 12months, they probably will not cover it. Depends on your dealer. I have not been impressed with remans since early 90's. Quality just doesn't seem to be the way it once was. I will not warrenty the labor for them any longer. Seems they have too often been 12month motors. I am waiting to hear on what the Mazda Renesis remans are doing. This I am hard pressed to say because I am confirmed factory guy and Mazda had always been know for it's quality. Back to original post: Neither one is a fun job in the car. To me it’s 50/50. David is correct about original install eccentric shaft bolt. Max torque is 270N-m/28kg-m/200ft-lb. But I would like to meet the gorilla in the factory using the torque wrench. I have to borrow a 1in impact to get them off when out of the car. Since this a reman it shouldn't be too bad. You may be able to use the breaker bar against frame rail trick. see below. On original factory motors I have been able to break them loose in the car with a six foot pipe on a breaker bar. Also have broken more that one breaker bar and socket or adaptor. Snap-on carries them in stock for me now. Much easier out of the car with the impact and flywheel lock. 1st and 2nd gens I was able to use a breaker bar have it set so that it is a couple of inches from the LS frame rail and hit the starter, couple of tries broke it loose. Disable ignition of course. I have never had a problem with the mazda oem gasket on any of my client street cars motors that I have done. Trick is clean surface and torque on front cover bolts. I don’t use any extra sealant either. Not saying anything against metal. AC compressor, helps if you have small hands. And don’t tighten one bolt until you get all four started. I would say though that after you change it you will probably have a pan leak. So be prepared to go after that soon. As stated above, be very careful about the keyway and the back thrust bearing. If the keyway comes out with the damper the bearing will have dropped. Best way I have found is to keep the key pushed in as you carefully remove the damper. If this motor has a lot of miles on it you may want to think rebuild. This could just be the tip of the iceberg and it will be plaguing you with a lot of little (that’s a misnomer on this model) things. Nickel and dime on these is 500/1000. I don’t like charging double labor if I don’t have to. I have found that the FD can have a lot of sleeping dogs. But if you like working on it and like a lot of frustration more power to you. Just take your time and don’t try to cut corners or rush anything. Last edited by rx4ur7; 03-31-2009 at 01:38 PM.

03-31-2009, 01:34 PM	#21
REVIT93RX7 REVIT Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Palm Bay, FL Posts: 90 Rep Power: 17	Oil Probably dripping somewhere above the pan. Didi you spill any when filling?

03-31-2009, 06:54 PM	#22
hades Rotary Fanatic Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Freedom Land Posts: 316 Rep Power: 18	no spills. The engine has 12-14K on a reman that was installed when I bought the car. The crappy thing is the car was in the air for while-brakes and dp and went out of warranty in the process. The mazda dealer here in Denton won't cover it. I don't know of other options or people to call to have mazda fix it. And I know all about scary dealer stories, but if I can get them to cover it then I will save a lot of time and money--hopefully. Rotary Performance quoted $1000 for the front cover and oil pan. I have some more forced vacation next week so I may tackle it then. I am rolling it around in my head. Pay $1000 for job done right or try it my self, cry and cuss, but save money. How careful do you have to be with the thrust bearings once the cover is off? I have read you need to be careful or you get the chance to rebuild the engine. But how careful do you really have to be? I read to keep the front of the engine in air to help out. I have tried to read up on the other forum, but any advice or guidance is always welcome. __________________ This is going to tear

03-31-2009, 09:28 PM	#23
jamespond24 Rotary Fanatic Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 157 Rep Power: 18	As for the thrust bearing I use vaseline to hold it in place. My advice to double check it is the front cover ( I use to have the same problem but it end up the Turbo return lines that goes to the front cover had been leaking and it drip down the oil pan) Only reason I want you to double check cause tackling the fron cover job is not fum for the first timer.

04-01-2009, 12:58 AM	#24
rx4ur7 Rotary since 1972 Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Tucson Posts: 231 Rep Power: 17	That's a fair quote, about the same I charge. It's an ugly job even for those of us that do it all the time. Not my favorite to do in the car. A proper engine holder really makes it a lot easier. Although I am sure there are those that have used a 4X4 or big pipe and chain. Not really a job I would recommend for someone that doesn't have some backup and a lot of patience. Arie and the crew will treat you right if you go with them. Last I heard Dealerships in Tucson won’t take in any older rotary, pre 8, anymore. If you do the front cover as long as you keep the keyway from coming out with the damper you shouldn't have a problem with the thrust bearing. If the trust sleeve is kept place the bearing shouldn't move. During assembly once lined up I pull the eccentric shaft forward to keep pressure on the bearing, done a few motors so it is second hand. Vaseline won't hurt. It is critical it and is easy to get wrong. Don’t know how many home builds I have taken apart that had crushed bearings, even had a mana with one. Most all of these were before there were any forums though so there wasn’t as much help for DIYers. Factory school was about the only way to get any of the tricks back then. Instructor would point out, BTW you won’t find this in the factory shop manual. I’ll admit it I’ve crushed one, got distracted. At least I knew what was wrong when I checked end play before putting front cover on. Since the UV showed what it did and that is a common failure point it probably is the gasket. My experience has been that the hoses are pretty obvious when they leak. As you have easy access now easy enough to see if there is any oil in them any way.

04-01-2009, 08:17 AM	#25
SPICcnmFD Rotary Fanatic Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: B'ham, AL Posts: 329 Rep Power: 18	This doesn't help much. But according to the guy that I got my car from he had to replace the same gasket on the engine that had approx. the same amount of miles when he bought the car. Looks like Remans have a good chance of having problems. I know coolant seal failure is common, which is what eventually happened that engine. __________________ 1993 Rx-7 SM2 #11 At the local AutoX: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VOSQkkSLQs Speed for Sale shootout 2007: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JiqlyAkGmpg A few laps at Barbers: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_h5q...x=0&playnext=1

04-01-2009, 11:27 AM	#26
Whizbang Respecognize! Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Δx = ħ/2Δp Posts: 3,190 Rep Power: 20	i would think that its the little o-ring in between the front cover and the front iron. Its on the same side of the engine, and sees full oil pressure. Might have helped caused the leak to form. Hard to say. Just a theory. You can see the area for in the picture below. __________________ For current updates and event coverage check out Follow on Twitter! @WhizbangRally Whizbang Rally's Webpage \| Facebook Last edited by Whizbang; 04-01-2009 at 11:30 AM.

04-01-2009, 12:30 PM	#27
rx4ur7 Rotary since 1972 Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Tucson Posts: 231 Rep Power: 17	But failure of that o ring usually only causes lack or loss of OP. Will not lead to an external leak. Failure of gasket at the oil pan is high % especially if the cover bolts are not torqued correctly and one other little thing, the gasket usually sticks out on both sides on the bottom, the excess should carefully be removed. Another one of those factory school hints. Earlier round motors had a more forgiving OPan gasket, but it could still induce a leak over time. Newer no gasket and new gaskets seem to be more prone to leak issues when the front cover gasket isn't trimmed. Some where someone said they don't use a torque wrench except for a couple of places. I was able to do that also with everything pre 93. With the FD and Renesis I use them on just about everything. Too much work involved to have something silly go wrong. Doesn't really take you that much longer.

04-01-2009, 12:35 PM	#28
Whizbang Respecognize! Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Δx = ħ/2Δp Posts: 3,190 Rep Power: 20	exactly why i thought it was "far fetched" but an option. __________________ For current updates and event coverage check out Follow on Twitter! @WhizbangRally Whizbang Rally's Webpage \| Facebook

04-10-2009, 07:46 AM	#30
hades Rotary Fanatic Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Freedom Land Posts: 316 Rep Power: 18	I decided to drop the car off at Rotary Performance yesterday. If the engine was blown I would have dropped the enigne and rebuilt it my self - couldn't hurt anything. But since it wasn't I decided to let the pro's do it and learn about engine covers another day. I want to get a hold of a blown small block and tear it down to get my hands dirty. I should have the car back in two weeks. __________________ This is going to tear