Flooded after oil change 13B Non Turbo

RX MIDGET · 12-12-2010, 09:46 PM

Hi,
I hope that someone out there can provide direction on a flooding issue I have...
Relevant info: 13B Non turbo fitted in 1970 MG Midget with a electric fuel pump (I believe no regulator fitted)

My problem is...
Warmed engine prior to changing oil filter and oil - clearly not long enough - NEVER AGAIN!!!
Now with new oil and filter, it has flooded trying to restart.

Here is what I have done over the past 2 days..
Cleaned plugs - still no go with 3 attempts
Cleaned plugs, disconnected fuel pump - in attempt to vacate fuel, then connected fuel - no go with 3 attempts
Left plugs out overnight - still no go
Turned over without plugs and fuel pump - in attempts to vacate fuel
Turned over with plugs and full throttle - nup

I can smell fuel and plugs come out wet.
New plugs have been ordered and are 3 days off (country town!)

I believe I have done everything suggested on the web without success.

Can anyone provide a suggestion that can get me moving?

rxspeed7 · 12-12-2010, 09:56 PM

Unplug the fuel pump and the coils, take out the plugs and crank over to exspell any fuel. put some oil in the spark plug holes rotating the engine after you put about 10-15cc of oil in the hole so you get some oil onto all three faces. Do the same on both rotors. then put new plugs in and re-connect everything and start it up. Should work for!

Zack

RX MIDGET · 12-12-2010, 10:23 PM

Thanks Zack, looks like I will have to wait for the plugs to arrive...

Also, as the fuel pump "ticks" and a constant rate when cranking over, could this be part of the problem??? Meaning fuel being pushed to the 48 IDA Webber without the engine firing?
(I ask as even without any foot throttle, the engine needs fuel to idle - right???)

rxspeed7 · 12-13-2010, 02:58 PM

It shouldn't add fuel unless A: your carbs are leaking, or B: you push the accel pedal down. When it idles the vacuum from the engines is what pulls the fuel in. Your best bet is too just wait for the plugs to get in and make sure the fuel is fully evacuated from the engine.

Zack

RX MIDGET · 12-13-2010, 04:24 PM

Thanks again Zack,
I will let you know how I go with the plugs.

Dannobre · 12-13-2010, 08:13 PM

Put the plugs back in...hook up a tow rope....tow it till it starts

Modulate throttle to keep it running till it idles normally.......

Replace the plugs to make sure..but tow starting is the fastest way to start a flooded rotary.

NoDOHC · 12-13-2010, 10:00 PM

I have used the 2-stoke oil and the pull starting method. Both work.

Unfortunately, I can tell you that with a good compression (healthy) rotary, I have never had to do that. It doesn't matter how long it sat for or what I do wrong with fuelling, if I can eventually get the mix right, it will start.

For instance, I had a 1 bar MAP sensor on an engine with a tune for a 3-bar MAP sensor and by modulating the de-flood on the throttle pedal, I still got it to start. (This was putting in 3 times as much fuel as the engine needed).

This is bad news for you as you have either or both of the following problems:

1: bad compression
2: bad fuel mix

Because you have successfully started this engine in the past, I am inclined to believe the first one.

Get it running (pull or oil), drive it some, let it warm up completely, then check compression.

Should not be below 60 psi bounce on any face using a piston engine compression gauge with the check valve removed. Good is 80-90, bad is 50, really bad (requires perfect mix to start) is 30-40.

If compression is better than 60 psi on all faces of both rotors, you need to look at your carb settings.

EDIT: To explain what the pulling and oil does, the oil builds a sealing film between the rotor housing and the metal seals, prohibiting air from leaking past the seals and improving compression numbers (similar to a wet leakdown test on a piston engine). The pull starting makes the engine turn faster, which gives the air less time to leak past the seals and improves compression. Both ways you are implementing a band-aid to the real problem, low compression.

RX MIDGET · 12-14-2010, 06:41 PM

Thanks NoDOHC,
I would be supprised if low compression was the issue as the engine was rebuilt 12000 km's ago. Prior to the flooding, the engine ran beautifully, plenty of power, virtually no smoke on startup, however I do know it was running a bit rich.
I will give feedback after I collect the plugs and get it moving again.

RX MIDGET · 12-15-2010, 06:39 PM

All,
After new plugs and much cursing I have discovered the fault was not relating to flooding. A dodgy wire connection linking coils was located an the car started within seconds and runs well.
Thank you for your support and direction.....

NoDOHC · 12-15-2010, 11:01 PM

Awesome! That's what we like to hear.

Glad you got it going!

You should post pictures of how a rotary fits in a midget.

RX MIDGET · 12-16-2010, 05:48 PM

NoDOHC,
Yes I will post pictures, just tidying up the car at the moment (before pics) as it was used as a hillclimber for 18 years. Body is only 6/10, however a vast improvement from when I bought it.
FYI, 13B N/C with RX7 5 speed very easily fits with the right mounts / manifolds etc. I guess the hard part (and $$$) is to get Engineered for street use in Victoria, Australia.

NoDOHC · 12-17-2010, 12:43 AM

I don't know anything about licensing for street use in Austrailia, in the US it is easy, as long as you have hobbiest or collector plates on it, you can change pretty much whatever you like (otherwise, you have to meet emissions standards for the car or engine, whichever is newer).

12-12-2010, 09:46 PM	#1
RX MIDGET MG rocket Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Victoria Australia Posts: 40 Rep Power: 0	Flooded after oil change 13B Non Turbo Hi, I hope that someone out there can provide direction on a flooding issue I have... Relevant info: 13B Non turbo fitted in 1970 MG Midget with a electric fuel pump (I believe no regulator fitted) My problem is... Warmed engine prior to changing oil filter and oil - clearly not long enough - NEVER AGAIN!!! Now with new oil and filter, it has flooded trying to restart. Here is what I have done over the past 2 days.. Cleaned plugs - still no go with 3 attempts Cleaned plugs, disconnected fuel pump - in attempt to vacate fuel, then connected fuel - no go with 3 attempts Left plugs out overnight - still no go Turned over without plugs and fuel pump - in attempts to vacate fuel Turned over with plugs and full throttle - nup I can smell fuel and plugs come out wet. New plugs have been ordered and are 3 days off (country town!) I believe I have done everything suggested on the web without success. Can anyone provide a suggestion that can get me moving?

12-13-2010, 10:00 PM	#7
NoDOHC The quest for more torque Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Sheboygan, Wisconsin Posts: 855 Rep Power: 17	I have used the 2-stoke oil and the pull starting method. Both work. Unfortunately, I can tell you that with a good compression (healthy) rotary, I have never had to do that. It doesn't matter how long it sat for or what I do wrong with fuelling, if I can eventually get the mix right, it will start. For instance, I had a 1 bar MAP sensor on an engine with a tune for a 3-bar MAP sensor and by modulating the de-flood on the throttle pedal, I still got it to start. (This was putting in 3 times as much fuel as the engine needed). This is bad news for you as you have either or both of the following problems: 1: bad compression 2: bad fuel mix Because you have successfully started this engine in the past, I am inclined to believe the first one. Get it running (pull or oil), drive it some, let it warm up completely, then check compression. Should not be below 60 psi bounce on any face using a piston engine compression gauge with the check valve removed. Good is 80-90, bad is 50, really bad (requires perfect mix to start) is 30-40. If compression is better than 60 psi on all faces of both rotors, you need to look at your carb settings. EDIT: To explain what the pulling and oil does, the oil builds a sealing film between the rotor housing and the metal seals, prohibiting air from leaking past the seals and improving compression numbers (similar to a wet leakdown test on a piston engine). The pull starting makes the engine turn faster, which gives the air less time to leak past the seals and improves compression. Both ways you are implementing a band-aid to the real problem, low compression. __________________ 1986 GXL ('87 4-port NA - Haltech E8, LS2 Coils. Defined Autoworks Headers, Dual 2.5" Exhaust (Dual Superflow, dBX mufflers) 1991 Coupe (KYB AGX Shocks, Eibach lowering springs, RB exhaust, Stock and Automatic) Last edited by NoDOHC; 12-13-2010 at 10:04 PM.

12-15-2010, 11:01 PM	#10
NoDOHC The quest for more torque Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Sheboygan, Wisconsin Posts: 855 Rep Power: 17	Awesome! That's what we like to hear. Glad you got it going! You should post pictures of how a rotary fits in a midget. __________________ 1986 GXL ('87 4-port NA - Haltech E8, LS2 Coils. Defined Autoworks Headers, Dual 2.5" Exhaust (Dual Superflow, dBX mufflers) 1991 Coupe (KYB AGX Shocks, Eibach lowering springs, RB exhaust, Stock and Automatic)

12-17-2010, 12:43 AM	#12
NoDOHC The quest for more torque Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Sheboygan, Wisconsin Posts: 855 Rep Power: 17	I don't know anything about licensing for street use in Austrailia, in the US it is easy, as long as you have hobbiest or collector plates on it, you can change pretty much whatever you like (otherwise, you have to meet emissions standards for the car or engine, whichever is newer). __________________ 1986 GXL ('87 4-port NA - Haltech E8, LS2 Coils. Defined Autoworks Headers, Dual 2.5" Exhaust (Dual Superflow, dBX mufflers) 1991 Coupe (KYB AGX Shocks, Eibach lowering springs, RB exhaust, Stock and Automatic)

12-12-2010, 10:23 PM	#3
RX MIDGET MG rocket Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Victoria Australia Posts: 40 Rep Power: 0	Thanks Zack, looks like I will have to wait for the plugs to arrive... Also, as the fuel pump "ticks" and a constant rate when cranking over, could this be part of the problem??? Meaning fuel being pushed to the 48 IDA Webber without the engine firing? (I ask as even without any foot throttle, the engine needs fuel to idle - right???)

12-13-2010, 04:24 PM	#5
RX MIDGET MG rocket Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Victoria Australia Posts: 40 Rep Power: 0	Thanks again Zack, I will let you know how I go with the plugs.

12-13-2010, 08:13 PM	#6
Dannobre Rotary Fan in Training Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 87 Rep Power: 17	Put the plugs back in...hook up a tow rope....tow it till it starts Modulate throttle to keep it running till it idles normally....... Replace the plugs to make sure..but tow starting is the fastest way to start a flooded rotary.

12-14-2010, 06:41 PM	#8
RX MIDGET MG rocket Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Victoria Australia Posts: 40 Rep Power: 0	Thanks NoDOHC, I would be supprised if low compression was the issue as the engine was rebuilt 12000 km's ago. Prior to the flooding, the engine ran beautifully, plenty of power, virtually no smoke on startup, however I do know it was running a bit rich. I will give feedback after I collect the plugs and get it moving again.

12-15-2010, 06:39 PM	#9
RX MIDGET MG rocket Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Victoria Australia Posts: 40 Rep Power: 0	All, After new plugs and much cursing I have discovered the fault was not relating to flooding. A dodgy wire connection linking coils was located an the car started within seconds and runs well. Thank you for your support and direction.....

12-16-2010, 05:48 PM	#11
RX MIDGET MG rocket Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Victoria Australia Posts: 40 Rep Power: 0	NoDOHC, Yes I will post pictures, just tidying up the car at the moment (before pics) as it was used as a hillclimber for 18 years. Body is only 6/10, however a vast improvement from when I bought it. FYI, 13B N/C with RX7 5 speed very easily fits with the right mounts / manifolds etc. I guess the hard part (and $$$) is to get Engineered for street use in Victoria, Australia.