who makes a good wideband?

NoDOHC · 08-24-2010, 09:20 PM

The reason that I went with an Innovate the second time, rather than buying another AEM (which has been a good product) was the ability to calibrate and the corresponding accuracy.

The Innovate gives the opportunity to calibrate the wideband frequently in free air to compensate for the long-term degradation in the actual wideband sensor.

The AEM wideband (which can't be re-calibrated) can be off by up to 0.5 AFR after years of use, which could mean death to a closely-tuned turbo car. I think this is the reason that many people do not like them.

At the same time, on an NA car the AEM is fine because if you shoot for 13.2:1 by the wideband, you are probably reasonably close to peak power (error range of 12.7:1 to 13.7:1, which all makes good power). Running a NA engine lean of 13.4:1 (peak power) won't hurt it, you will just lose power (no valves to burn or pistons to melt).

AnthonyNYC · 10-18-2010, 01:33 AM

A while back I bought the Innovate Wideband kit with the Bosch sensor. I like it a lot, it worked well. I mounted it too close to the turbo and started to get error codes saying it was too close. I then moved it but it was too late, I damaged the sensor. Let's call this sensor number 1. Keep in mind the time to jack the car up, take the downpipe off, tap a new hole, take to shop to get the new bung welded on etc.....

So I go out and get a new sensor. Now this worked great. I mounted it on the downpipe but closer to the midpipe. Things were great. Everyday I drive the car to and from work and loved the new sensor. All was good. I now needed to tune the car and added some C16 and after a short time it started reading lean and I added more fuel until the sensor was toast, let's call this sensor number 2.

So I went on the Innovate forum and posted about it and was told it should be good up to 500 hours. So I went out and bought another bosch sensor but this time did not use it and just sold the unit with a brand new sensor. So I started doing some more research, more can add to this or correct me if I am wrong anywhere.

Most of the 'cheaper' wideband kits come with the Bosch sensor, the LSU4.2 sensor is most common. These sensors cost anywhere from $50-$90. These are great sensors if you are not going to be using leaded fuel. They do not tolerate heat very well and should be mounted a little further away. Making a copper heat sink will help as well.

Now, the better kits come with the NTK sensors. These sensors are way more durable and can tolerate heat very very well. These sensors cost anywhere from $250-300 just for the sensor alone, not the kit. There are 2 NTK sensors. There is an old school L1H1 and a newer L2H2. The L1H1 is no longer in production. I called a few manufactorers of wideband and asked about the various sensors, they all referred to the NTK L1H1 sensor as "bulletproof"
These L1H1 sensor costs more than the L2H2, about $50 more.

The L2H2 is also a great sensor and replaced the L1H1. If you are looking to get a wideband kit and plan on running leaded fuel, you should try to get a kit that uses an NTK sensor.

I ended up getting the FJO Wideband Kit with the older L1H1 setup. Others have been using this setup for years with no issues. I absolutely love it. I have gone through about 10 drums of C16 in the past few months and the sensor is holding up well. I have the sensor mounted in the same spot the Bosch was mounted in that burnt up. I drive the car daily (when it was warm) and the sensor is holding up excellent and works very very well.

The extra cost of any kits with the NTK sensor is well worth it in the long run if you run leaded fuel. The Innovate Kit cost me $400 when it first came out with the LC1. 2 sensors went bad which were $75 each. Total cost is $550 but hours of trying to get it right. The FJO kit or other kits using the NTK L2H2 cost roughly $650-$800 but will work well right out of the box.

To take the sensors up one more notch up is the NTK sensor that is hand balanced from the factory. (thanks Enzo250 for this info) These sensors are roughly $800-$1000 and used by more experienced tuners.

So in the end before buying a wideband look at the environment it will spend the most time in. If you are going to be using Leaded fuel,even sometimes, you might want to consider the NTK sensors. If you are going to be running pump gas all the time, then the Bosch sensors are ok for you.

08-24-2010, 09:20 PM	#1
NoDOHC The quest for more torque Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Sheboygan, Wisconsin Posts: 855 Rep Power: 18	The reason that I went with an Innovate the second time, rather than buying another AEM (which has been a good product) was the ability to calibrate and the corresponding accuracy. The Innovate gives the opportunity to calibrate the wideband frequently in free air to compensate for the long-term degradation in the actual wideband sensor. The AEM wideband (which can't be re-calibrated) can be off by up to 0.5 AFR after years of use, which could mean death to a closely-tuned turbo car. I think this is the reason that many people do not like them. At the same time, on an NA car the AEM is fine because if you shoot for 13.2:1 by the wideband, you are probably reasonably close to peak power (error range of 12.7:1 to 13.7:1, which all makes good power). Running a NA engine lean of 13.4:1 (peak power) won't hurt it, you will just lose power (no valves to burn or pistons to melt). __________________ 1986 GXL ('87 4-port NA - Haltech E8, LS2 Coils. Defined Autoworks Headers, Dual 2.5" Exhaust (Dual Superflow, dBX mufflers) 1991 Coupe (KYB AGX Shocks, Eibach lowering springs, RB exhaust, Stock and Automatic)

10-18-2010, 01:33 AM	#2
AnthonyNYC Self built and tuned... Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: West Islip, Long Island NY Posts: 14 Rep Power: 0	A while back I bought the Innovate Wideband kit with the Bosch sensor. I like it a lot, it worked well. I mounted it too close to the turbo and started to get error codes saying it was too close. I then moved it but it was too late, I damaged the sensor. Let's call this sensor number 1. Keep in mind the time to jack the car up, take the downpipe off, tap a new hole, take to shop to get the new bung welded on etc..... So I go out and get a new sensor. Now this worked great. I mounted it on the downpipe but closer to the midpipe. Things were great. Everyday I drive the car to and from work and loved the new sensor. All was good. I now needed to tune the car and added some C16 and after a short time it started reading lean and I added more fuel until the sensor was toast, let's call this sensor number 2. So I went on the Innovate forum and posted about it and was told it should be good up to 500 hours. So I went out and bought another bosch sensor but this time did not use it and just sold the unit with a brand new sensor. So I started doing some more research, more can add to this or correct me if I am wrong anywhere. Most of the 'cheaper' wideband kits come with the Bosch sensor, the LSU4.2 sensor is most common. These sensors cost anywhere from $50-$90. These are great sensors if you are not going to be using leaded fuel. They do not tolerate heat very well and should be mounted a little further away. Making a copper heat sink will help as well. Now, the better kits come with the NTK sensors. These sensors are way more durable and can tolerate heat very very well. These sensors cost anywhere from $250-300 just for the sensor alone, not the kit. There are 2 NTK sensors. There is an old school L1H1 and a newer L2H2. The L1H1 is no longer in production. I called a few manufactorers of wideband and asked about the various sensors, they all referred to the NTK L1H1 sensor as "bulletproof" These L1H1 sensor costs more than the L2H2, about $50 more. The L2H2 is also a great sensor and replaced the L1H1. If you are looking to get a wideband kit and plan on running leaded fuel, you should try to get a kit that uses an NTK sensor. I ended up getting the FJO Wideband Kit with the older L1H1 setup. Others have been using this setup for years with no issues. I absolutely love it. I have gone through about 10 drums of C16 in the past few months and the sensor is holding up well. I have the sensor mounted in the same spot the Bosch was mounted in that burnt up. I drive the car daily (when it was warm) and the sensor is holding up excellent and works very very well. The extra cost of any kits with the NTK sensor is well worth it in the long run if you run leaded fuel. The Innovate Kit cost me $400 when it first came out with the LC1. 2 sensors went bad which were $75 each. Total cost is $550 but hours of trying to get it right. The FJO kit or other kits using the NTK L2H2 cost roughly $650-$800 but will work well right out of the box. To take the sensors up one more notch up is the NTK sensor that is hand balanced from the factory. (thanks Enzo250 for this info) These sensors are roughly $800-$1000 and used by more experienced tuners. So in the end before buying a wideband look at the environment it will spend the most time in. If you are going to be using Leaded fuel,even sometimes, you might want to consider the NTK sensors. If you are going to be running pump gas all the time, then the Bosch sensors are ok for you.