20b Installs

[StumpDrummer]

Who is a trustworthy person to get a (20b single turbo 18-20lbs boost) from and have it completly installed in an 80 model 7, and how much should the entire project cost?
I've read about some nightmare stories and Im kinda leary about the whole thing.But I would love to see what it could do!

Originally wanted a 4 rotor monstor but I think it would cost way too much
adding another rotor,coil,and wiring shouldnt cost an extra 10-15k

[Whizbang]

I know Logan at Defined autoworks in ohio does a great job.

[j9fd3s]

it would help to know where you are...

project would be pretty expensive, you need to buy a motor, fit it to the car, buy/fab the turbo manifold, buy the turbo and fuel system (injectors, pump), get an ecu that will run the thing, radiator, intercooler, oil cooler, clutch/flywheel/trans/driveshaft/rear end. then rebuild the engine, and tune everything.

plus labor....

it could easily be a $30,000 multi year project...

[War Eagle]

Yes, it would be at least $30,000. Most of us have significantly more than that invested. I like the Defined Autoworks kit if you don't need AC.

[RotaryProphet]

$30,000 is f'ing ridiculous, it all depends on your power goals. For what he's looking for, you could do a really nice swap for about half that, parts and labor.

OP: I sent you a PM, get ahold of me and we can talk about your goals, then I could give you a parts estimate.

[To_Slow]

Originally Posted by StumpDrummer

Who is a trustworthy person to get a (20b single turbo 18-20lbs boost) from and have it completly installed in an 80 model 7, and how much should the entire project cost?
I've read about some nightmare stories and Im kinda leary about the whole thing.But I would love to see what it could do!

Originally wanted a 4 rotor monstor but I think it would cost way too much
adding another rotor,coil,and wiring shouldnt cost an extra 10-15k

To do it right you will need 30k for shure. Motor cost + rebuilt, turbo kit, fuel components,tranny ugrade, twin plate clutch, diferential and axle upgrade.

Might be some that i missed. You will need all the right components that cost alot of $$ to have a healthy 20b powerd car.

You welcome.

[gmonsen]

You could put a stock 20b with its twins tuned to make 300-310 whp for about $15-20,000. Going to a 20b with a single turbo is going to cost at least $35,000 done well. (It can and has cost people $50-75,000 and possibly more to do what they wanted with a 20b single...) I have a 20b NA and a 20b GT42R and have some idea what it takes to do these.

Knowing what the parts cost doesn't mean anything at all and I wouldn't listen to anyone who tells you that $30,000 is f'ng ridiculous. They either have no idea what they're talking about or are planning to rip you off.

If you are anywhere near Ohio, Logan at Defined Motorwerks is your guy, imho. If you are further east, Dave at KD Rotary does a great job. If you are close to Florida, Jesus Padilla is the guy. Those are the only guys I know to recommend, but others can chime in from other parts of the country.

Gordon

[RotaryProphet]

Putting a stock 20b with a good OEM rebuild and factory twins in should run between $5k and $10k, depending on how much of the drivetrain you put in with it, and what the car is designed to do. A street driven car probably doesn't need a twin clutch, particularly in the case of an 1980 RX, which weighs very little compared to what the motor came in OEM. I wouldn't recommend using the 12a trans, obviously (although I did run a 238rwhp ~300fwhp turbo 12a in my car on the stock trans/driveshaft/rear for dozens of strip and dyno runs and never had a failure - much to the dismay of people who told me I'd pop transmissions left and right). The stock rear on an FB will hold surprisingly much power (ask the rear in my small block chevy 400ci powered FB), and the wheels will spin in that car long before you have a chance to pop a T2 trans.

Now if he's planning on running drag radials and launching at full throttle, none of that will stand up. But my point is, you guys are making serious assumptions about the point of this car, and the budget of the person doing the swap.

When I say $30k is ridiculous, I'm assuming this is a street car, as the OP didn't specifically say otherwise. Again, if this is a drag car, A) that changes the equation seriously, and B) the OP shouldn't really be getting into that without knowing ahead of time what he's going to be doing to the car.

But when I say half that, I mean I could build a street car to those general specs for $15k without a doubt. It's about knowing where you can do things cheaper and (usually) better. I use Megasquirt EFI systems I can build and wire in myself as opposed to haltech systems I can't modify, which saves literally thousands of dollars in most cases. I do the tuning in-house on my engine dyno, so I know where there are power gains to be had, and the tune ends up much more streetable because an engine dyno can hit places that a chassis dyno realistically can't. And the big thing, I'm used to doing things on a budget, and I know where there's free and cheap power. You don't buy thousand dollar intakes when you can build one in house for half the price. You don't spent thousands of dollars beefing up the trans when you can swap in a different one (I'm thinking T5) easier. You don't replace axles and the diff in the stock rear if you can swap out to a ford 9" rear by welding on some suspension brackets. The main point is that all of this can be done cheaply and will give superb performance- but it's labor intensive, and a lot of it boils down to how much the shop you go to charges for labor. Me? I'm dirt cheap, I do this to support my own habit, really. My profit goes to pay for my garage and more machine tools and such so that I can keep building my own stuff.

The project I'm finishing in the next couple of weeks is a 20b build for a kid in New Jersey. It pretty much matches the OP's vague description. With a heavy port and a large single turbo, custom intake with an integral water->air intercooler (which is actually situated post-throttle body to increase spool time and so that the intercooler can actually function as the intake plenum) at moderate boost levels we're making 600 hp. I haven't run up into the high boost area yet, I'm debating with the customer the need for it, as we've already passed his power goal. With fuel system, Megasquirt, transmission, rear end, water/air intercooler system, oil coolers ,radiator, upgraded suspension, engine rebuild, custom manifolds and everything else involved, parts cost came out less than $15k. Total for the job was $22k, and if the OP would like, I'm sure I can put him in touch with the customer.

[War Eagle]

RotaryProphet - that would be great if a 20B as you described can be done for $22K. I don't know you or your capabilities but you'll have work all day long if that is what you charge and if the work is quality. Those are two big IFs though.

I have a 20B conversion, and like Gordon, have spent way more than the $35K we both think the job could be done for. Most of my money though was "rip off" money where the shop claimed expertise in 20B conversions and then I had to have the work redone by someone else. I now have the car with Jesus Padilla at Kilo Racing in Orlando and I highly recommend him. Dave at KDR is also great as is Logan at Defined Autoworks IF you don't need AC (his kit doesn't support it). Carlos Lopez and Chris Hill in Miami are also very good and have done countless 20B conversions.

Here is the point from me - don't take your car to someone you don't know or doesn't have good recommendations. And if price is your primary concern then don't do the 20B swap. I don't know of anyone that has had a shop do a quality job on a conversion like this for under $30,000 so let the buyer beware.

Regarding the Megasquirt, I wasn't aware that EMS could be used but why bother when there are other units that fully support the 20B like the Haltech you mentioned and for example, Microtech? These are not pricey units and they fully support the 20B setup and they have both been used on countless installs. My current EMS is the Microtech LT-12S. With wiring harness, it's like $1,300 and it has my car running like OEM.

[RotaryProphet]

Originally Posted by War Eagle

And if price is your primary concern then don't do the 20B swap.

Regarding the Megasquirt, I wasn't aware that EMS could be used but why bother when there are other units that fully support the 20B like the Haltech you mentioned and for example, Microtech? These are not pricey units and they fully support the 20B setup and they have both been used on countless installs. My current EMS is the Microtech LT-12S. With wiring harness, it's like $1,300 and it has my car running like OEM.

Regarding the first point: Definitely don't do 20b if price is an issue. Even $22k is twenty two freaking thousand dollars for an engine swap. You best have a hell of a budget.

As for the Megasquirt, with a few mods on board and doing all the soldering myself, I can have a seriously high powered EFI system for a hair over $300 - the price of the kit and wiring harness. So yes, a thousand dollar savings right there is good enough justification for me, and since I understand how to do it, it's worth it to me. That's just an example of what I'm talking about, not everyone can wield a soldering iron like i can, so not everyone is in a position to spend $300 for something people often spend $1300 on.

[gmonsen]

Rotary Prophet... My obligations are to the users and not to the sellers on forums and so I apologize up front if you take umbrage at what I am going to say.

Anyone who has a 20b conversion done by a "back yard tuner" who does work to support his or her habit rather than by a full time reputable business have absolutely no right to complain whatsoever for anything that goes wrong. If the car isn't ever completed, costs way more than promised or blows up, that person has no right to complain here on this forum or anywhere else. The forums are littered with people who have gone to some unknown or less-well-known tuner and have had a bad experience.

When I started modding FD's back in the mid-90's I took the approach of identifying parts and their cost and then figuring out how long it would take to do the work at a specified or assumed labor cost. In general I found I was off by at least 100% on the best-guessed builds.

I think you could do an Australian or New Zealand backyard 20b swap for as little as $20-25,000. I have no idea how long it would take you to get it done or what the ultimate quality would be. It would be an interesting FB and would be very fast until something broke. It would be special in the sense that you would have a 20b in an FB. It would not be some beautiful, 600 whp monster that looked great and was "awesome". You get what you pay for.

Your biggest risks in hoping to get a 20b into an FB would be that you were still waiting for it in a year or more. These conversions usually take about 6 months to a year at somebody's shop. If you have it done by a backyard tuner, he may change his life and no longer have time to do your work or he may move to take a new job or his own car may take priority.

Most people who know what's what will tell you that you should either have it done by a reputable shop that has done it many times and you pay through the nose or you know enough to do it yourself.

Gordon

[War Eagle]

Originally Posted by RotaryProphet

Regarding the first point: Definitely don't do 20b if price is an issue. Even $22k is twenty two freaking thousand dollars for an engine swap. You best have a hell of a budget.

As for the Megasquirt, with a few mods on board and doing all the soldering myself, I can have a seriously high powered EFI system for a hair over $300 - the price of the kit and wiring harness. So yes, a thousand dollar savings right there is good enough justification for me, and since I understand how to do it, it's worth it to me. That's just an example of what I'm talking about, not everyone can wield a soldering iron like i can, so not everyone is in a position to spend $300 for something people often spend $1300 on.

Yes, but the customer is then left with an EMS that can only be supported by you and that's not a very enviable position to be in. At least with an off the shelf solution (read Microtech, Haltech, etc.) the customer can take the car to other mechanics that can work on/tune the car. Saving money is good, but sometimes going with a tried and true solution that costs more is better. I'm all for saving money but I wouldn't scrimp on the EMS that's for sure.

As for the rest of the project, I love having a mechanic/fabricator like you that is in tune with saving money. Why spend more if you don't get an appreciable corresponding benefit?

Would love to see some pics/vids/dyno sheets of your current 20B project.

[War Eagle]

Picking up on what Gordon is saying, he's absolutely right. Have a reputable shop do your 20B build. This kind of conversion has no place with a "backyard tuner" as Gordon says.

And even if you go to a reputable shop, there is still the chance it won't work out for you. I first went to the shop that has done the most 20B builds, the "Banzai" as they call it. Yet, they couldn't quite get the car all together from a EMS/tuning standpoint. I then sent the car to Wolf EMS USA as they wanted to enter the US market and use my car as their demonstration/project car. Turns out the guy running the US operations has a drug/drinking problem and that didn't pan out. The point is there are just a handful of places I know of that you can get the job done and trust the work.

[Herblenny]

RotaryProphet,

I would also like to see your previous 20B installs and such. I think seeing other options out there will help those looking to do 3 rotor swaps... I mean, I'm still learning about different set ups and still making decisions which way to go.. And I been thinking about it for the past 4 years.

[RotaryProphet]

Originally Posted by gmonsen

Rotary Prophet... My obligations are to the users and not to the sellers on forums and so I apologize up front if you take umbrage at what I am going to say.

Anyone who has a 20b conversion done by a "back yard tuner" who does work to support his or her habit rather than by a full time reputable business have absolutely no right to complain whatsoever for anything that goes wrong. If the car isn't ever completed, costs way more than promised or blows up, that person has no right to complain here on this forum or anywhere else. The forums are littered with people who have gone to some unknown or less-well-known tuner and have had a bad experience.

Fair enough, (and understandable!) but I don't consider myself a "back yard tuner"... how many of those own a shop and operate a private engine dyno? Besides that, I don't know about other people, (and it's certainly worthless to say it), but I take good care of my customers (Ask the guy who's motor I'm re-dynoing and recreating the harness on because of his mis-installation... for free, no less.)

However, I do work a full time job, so in that sense I don't depend on my shop's income at all; it pays for itself, and for my projects, and that's about all I ask for.

As far as using a Megasquirt and only myself being able to work on it; that's not strictly true, Megasquirt tuning is standardized, but in the sense that most shops don't know anything about it, that is true, but most of the people I do work for favor the lower price tag. (It's actually often cheaper to wire in a Megasquirt for me than to replace a defective ECU with a used one).

Once I finish up the last bit if tuning on this motor, I'll try to get some pics up, and some pics of the motor installed, as well as some dyno sheets.