Turbo manifold design

[mattallac]

Ya don't think i will be putting pics on my walls , but i do appreciate the good advice . Like I have said in the past I'm not a turbo guy (this is my first and not my last ),I'm a vintage rotary guy and the shop i work at only tunes spec rotary race cars ,so my info comes from books ,theory and as little forum talk as possible.(when pertaining to my car).

[speedjunkie]

The only thing I was ever concerned with as far as routing WG back into the exhaust was that it was MUCH quieter than not plumbing it HAHA. I didn't realize there was a science to that as well lol. I kinda regret that I won't be doing it still with this setup, because I'm trying to get quieter, but it's kind of a PITA with my current setup trying to line the WG up to both flanges and get them tightened down. I can only imagine the mess from TWO wastegates.

Originally Posted by RICE RACING

Fuck that is a nice looking turbo!

Thanks! I can't wait to get home and molest it haha.

Originally Posted by RICE RACING

This turbo like the sierra sierra cunts run would be nice to use, it looks good too. > read more here > http://www.importtuner.com/features/...x/viewall.html

EFR 9180 ~900bhp @ 2.4 bar boost pressure

Yeah it's the same kind of turbo, just much smaller than theirs lol. I checked out that car quite a bit when I was deciding if I should get it or not.

Originally Posted by RICE RACING

The long to short runner thing is a classic and it WILL do your head in LOL.

One of the classic examples of a horse cock manifold is to look up the old TWINS TURBO converted Red Time Attack FD3S, running massive horse cock exhaust manifold with BW turbo and PENI GROW on steroids 5" dump pipe! and 4" exhaust !!!! you can actually see video of it doing ~480rwhp on the interwebz on a dynapack machine when set to ~20psi boost pressure. The amount of fab work and shit on that engine bay set up is homo in the extreme for very little return in performance.

You can see at least two other examples of short manifold cars running same or less boost and dyno'd on the exact same dyno types returning more power and with the same power band if not actually better. All around 500rwhubhp @ 1.3 bar boost pressure.

Alright, I'm definitely doing as short of runners as possible then. I was searching for a pic of the HKS manifold you're using and I came across the pic attached. I'm shooting for something similar to that I think, but with a WG flange off each runner. Now my concern is whether the oil will drain out being that low, since it probably won't be directly above the oil drain on the engine anyway. I have to find a way around this.

[RICE RACING]

I like their talk of turbo speed, not many cunts measure this, its how pro's talk and do things

I am near the end of my turbo's range running it at around 118,000rpm (comp map only goes to 120,000rpm) but fuck it I'll push it a bit beyond LOL, all these things are under rated for safety LOL I rekon you can run the poofter to 140,000rpm not a problem.

[speedjunkie]

Yeah I like how it has a port for a speed sensor, but I'm not sure if I know enough about this stuff to need another gauge inside LOL. Of course, if a nearby tuner has the option to use it for tuning I'd do it, but in any case I just like that I could measure it if I need to at some point. I'd love to learn how to do my own tuning, but I don't know if that day will ever come haha. When I was doing research on this turbo I was reading about turbo speed and how it's used to tune, it's pretty interesting. I don't remember at all what it said right now, but I remember where to find it and I remember that I thought it was interesting at the time HAHA.

[1Revvin7]

If you can fit a shorty manifold that will flow nice it is definitely the best way to go. When I say flow nice I mean the bends have to be as gentle as possible, and absolutely no cheating of the entrance to the turbo manifold. In all honestly it doesn't make that much difference from long vs short, engine build quality will way out weigh it.

Check out this SWEET Rx-8 turbo manifold we pulled off a customer's car..

Curious to see how your EFR works out, I've got tons of guys asking me about doing those..

[speedjunkie]

Yeah I'm really hoping to do as short and straight as possible, or at least gentle bends actually. What do you mean no cheating on the entrance? I know I'm just being finicky here, but anything that will help with faster spool is what I'm after.

That's an interesting manifold, I've never seen one done like that before. I don't remember, does the RX-8 exhaust come out of the irons too instead of the housings? Is that why there are 3 ports on there?

Yeah I'm curious too haha. Unfortunately I won't be able to provide any dyno results since I don't dare get on another one HAHA. All I'll be able to do is give a report on what the butt dyno tells me, how fast it spools and all that. Also, I'll be at a disadvantage due to the 6000' altitude as well, but I do plan on taking this to DGRR this year (assuming I can get it all done in time), so that should give me a better idea of what it will do near sea level. Otherwise I guess I'll run the current turbo out there. Either way, I'm sure I'll be reporting whether I'm happy or not haha. MAYBE I'll get on the dyno just to do a couple pulls, but no tuning, that's when tragedy strikes. I've been fairly lucky enough with just dyno pulls though.

[DriFD3S]

I approve of this thread.

[TitaniumTT]

And what knowledge and experience do you have to approve of anything?

[TitaniumTT]

Originally Posted by speedjunkie

Yeah I'm really hoping to do as short and straight as possible, or at least gentle bends actually. What do you mean no cheating on the entrance? I know I'm just being finicky here, but anything that will help with faster spool is what I'm after.

That's an interesting manifold, I've never seen one done like that before. I don't remember, does the RX-8 exhaust come out of the irons too instead of the housings? Is that why there are 3 ports on there?

Yeah I'm curious too haha. Unfortunately I won't be able to provide any dyno results since I don't dare get on another one HAHA. All I'll be able to do is give a report on what the butt dyno tells me, how fast it spools and all that. Also, I'll be at a disadvantage due to the 6000' altitude as well, but I do plan on taking this to DGRR this year (assuming I can get it all done in time), so that should give me a better idea of what it will do near sea level. Otherwise I guess I'll run the current turbo out there. Either way, I'm sure I'll be reporting whether I'm happy or not haha. MAYBE I'll get on the dyno just to do a couple pulls, but no tuning, that's when tragedy strikes. I've been fairly lucky enough with just dyno pulls though.

Hey Eric.... basically as far as the exhaust goes, the theory states as for turbo engines that the longer the runners, the more top end power you'll get for a variety of reasons. However, you're after response anyway.

As Peter pointed out, take a look at the Twins Turbo manifold. Beautifully constructed, out side the box thinking, not all that impressive numbers.

As for your tuning experiences.... get a better dyno guy!

What's breaking and what boost, timing, AFR's etc etc etc...

[RICE RACING]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kyJW...eature=related

^ These cunts know a thing or two about head jobs.

12minutes into this EPIC VIDEO (History lesson) BMW powered Benetton = 1350bhp and ~650kg actually has more power than the official media quoted figures, watch the video and be prepared to shit your panties! Actual power is around 1400+bhp as BMW could never measure the power properly as their dyno stopped at 1400!!!

25 years ago
1.5lt engine
STOCK ENGINE BLOCK
10,500rpm
102 oct petrol
water injection on the Renault and Ferrari
water sprays on intercoolers
5.5bar absolute pressures

NO THE VIDEO IS NOT IN FAST FORWARD!!!!



watch and learn!

[speedjunkie]

Originally Posted by TitaniumTT

Hey Eric.... basically as far as the exhaust goes, the theory states as for turbo engines that the longer the runners, the more top end power you'll get for a variety of reasons. However, you're after response anyway.

As Peter pointed out, take a look at the Twins Turbo manifold. Beautifully constructed, out side the box thinking, not all that impressive numbers.

As for your tuning experiences.... get a better dyno guy!

What's breaking and what boost, timing, AFR's etc etc etc...

Yeah I'm going to stick with shorter runners, as short as possible anyway.

It actually wasn't the tuner's fault in either case, it was just one of those things. Well, the first turbo I lost was my fault because I didn't put a restrictor in the oil line (didn't know I had to back then haha) and it blew the oil seals out on the first run, so that was my fault. Then when I lost my engine last Jan, I think it was going to go at any moment anyway, it was time to give up the ghost and it just so happened to be on the dyno. Actually that one was due to the rear bearing, so I'm thinking it might have been a blockage in the e-shaft or something and not providing oil, not sure. This time I don't know what the hell happened, but it hadn't even made it to the dyno yet when it started burning oil, during break in! But I'm still not 100% sure it's the engine just yet. But when I did get it on the dyno, that guy didn't know his ass from his elbow and changed the tune/timing so much that it killed it and wouldn't start again unless we popped the clutch with the truck pulling it. Once I changed the timing it would start again, but still acts weird, almost like it's flooding every time. And I'm sure as shit not going back to that place haha. And he supposedly used to have an FD and tunes a lot of them, that's doubtful. He sure isn't tuning mine anymore. Not only that, I spent 3 hours the night prior setting up my TB for a perfect idle, and then this dipshit started messing with it and screwed it up. But each of these times have been at different tuners anyway.

[Libor]

Originally Posted by RICE RACING

^ These cunts know a thing or two about head jobs.

That Benetton is just ridiculous

Peter, what do you think is the cause of better midrange torque with plumbed wastegate? This thing shocked me, as it shouldn't enhance volumetric efficiency and hence airflow per cycle. It must be something related to wastegate valve position and how far its opened vs. target boost? I´m lost in this

[TitaniumTT]

Think scavenging

[RICE RACING]

Originally Posted by Libor

That Benetton is just ridiculous

Peter, what do you think is the cause of better midrange torque with plumbed wastegate? This thing shocked me, as it shouldn't enhance volumetric efficiency and hence airflow per cycle. It must be something related to wastegate valve position and how far its opened vs. target boost? I´m lost in this

Yeah the BMW Benetton (Toleman IMHO) is just gag factor to the maX! its a real history lesson in making a fast turbo car.

I have not much of an idea as to why it makes more power, except that there is some complex interactions between the intake and exhaust as TTT suggests. For the street its a nice side benefit, its way WAY to fucking loud to have any turbo 13B that does not have at least two big mufflers and a WG going through the main exhaust system.

My car is very loud when its on 30psi boost! its just a pure function of the power being made, the more boost I have run the more loud it is, when I trialed it with just one muffler it was totally abhorrent and not usable on the road in any way shape of form.... anyway I know some don't care about noise etc, but to me to stay undercover it is important

[speedjunkie]

^I've been trying to go the more undercover route. Right now I have a Magnaflow resonated midpipe and the WG is routed back into the exhaust. But with the dual WG, I won't be doing that anymore, so I guess it's back to loud as shit haha. Maybe I'll take the resonated MP out too, I kinda miss the loud anyway, although I'm sure my neighbors don't.