Rebuilding engine

[speedjunkie]

Hmmm, maybe I'll check into the RX-8 stuff then anyway. Thanks for the heads up!
And one of my friends was suggesting cryo treating and shot peening the internals but I'd never heard of that before. Maybe I'll look into it for this time instead of nitrading, or maybe in addition to. I'd like to go all out on this one (I mean, short of getting the RB all aluminum engine lol), but I have to see what kind of funds I'm looking at and if I can get it all done before DGRR. As bad as I want to make DGRR this year, I don't want to compromise this build for it.

Well the corner seals I was talking about being ground down were pretty bad, and they were on the corners of the rotors that had some marking too but I never mentioned the rotors in the first post so no bad on you. I'll post up pics tonight so you can see what I mean. It looks like a file was dragged across them.

I'm not premixing, and I've only been running the OMP adapter for a short time, about 2 to 3 months or so. On a side note, I think I'm going to try to reroute my OMP lines this time so I can use the Mikuni pump, not sure how much difference that would make. Anyway, I've thought about premixing and I did it but only one time I think back in 08, but I've always worried about eventually clogging the fuel pump with the oil, or at least degrading flow. Although I don't like getting no oil during decel, that's not cool lol.

[speedjunkie]

As promised...pics of the carnage lol. Some of them are repeats, but with different light or at a different angle. When I was taking the pics they looked like crappy pics so I kept taking them. After looking at them on the computer they turned out pretty good.

[speedjunkie]

And I only took pics of damage that I found. I hadn't noticed the apex seal grooves before, or the crack in the e-shaft.

[speedjunkie]

[speedjunkie]

So here is my list of needed parts so far...
-e-shaft
-front and rear irons
-new rear main bearing and possibly replace all other bearings while I'm at it
-at least one new side seal
-probably some new corner seals
-possibly switch to RA Classic or Super seals
-obviously new coolant seals and gaskets, and possibly oil control rings
-spec housings and possibly get replacements or get them resurfaced

I forgot I have my engine from 3 years ago that I still haven't torn down yet. I'm going to break into that to see if there is anything I can use on this build.

Any suggestions from you guys? What new parts should I get?

[GorillaRE]

Originally Posted by speedjunkie

So here is my list of needed parts so far...
-e-shaft
-front and rear irons
-new rear main bearing and possibly replace all other bearings while I'm at it
-at least one new side seal
-probably some new corner seals
-possibly switch to RA Classic or Super seals
-obviously new coolant seals and gaskets, and possibly oil control rings
-spec housings and possibly get replacements or get them resurfaced

I forgot I have my engine from 3 years ago that I still haven't torn down yet. I'm going to break into that to see if there is anything I can use on this build.

Any suggestions from you guys? What new parts should I get?

Eric,

My suggestion to you would be: if the the other engine you have has minimal useable parts, buy a new engine from ray. The price break you get on buying the whole engine new instead of buying it part by part, is huge. Also, I don't care what anyone else says, RA seals are junk, ESPECIALLY the 3mm super seals. I DO NOT recommend them at all.

-J

[TitaniumTT]

Originally Posted by GorillaRE

Eric,

My suggestion to you would be: if the the other engine you have has minimal useable parts, buy a new engine from ray. The price break you get on buying the whole engine new instead of buying it part by part, is huge.

good point

Originally Posted by GorillaRE

Also, I don't care what anyone else says, RA seals are junk, ESPECIALLY the 3mm super seals. I DO NOT recommend them at all.

-J

Experience? Proof? What do you rec and WHY?

In mine they don't break, only warp... saved at LEAST one of my engines. As for chatter marks.... virtually none after 10k

[GorillaRE]

Originally Posted by TitaniumTT

good point



Experience? Proof? What do you rec and WHY?

In mine they don't break, only warp... saved at LEAST one of my engines. As for chatter marks.... virtually none after 10k

Please understand, my post wasn't meant to contridict yours. I was writting it when yours was posted.

But, my "proof" is in the amount of RA supper seal'd engines I've disassembled in the past 12 years. I have YET to see one that would lead me to believe they are anything but junk, in the form of a "seal that wont break". Sure, they are tuff seals, but they will eat your engine from the inside out. Now, I will be honest when I say, that the 2mm varity usually don't do the severe damage. And in fact, may be considered by some to be "normal(ish)" wear marks. But the fact is, that both the 2mm and 3mm leave chatter marks every time.

I refuse to pay for, or suport a seal that does damage to your engine during its running life just because it's "un breakable".

-J

[TitaniumTT]

Originally Posted by GorillaRE

Please understand, my post wasn't meant to contridict yours. I was writting it when yours was posted.

Kinda figured based on the time, thought it was odd though that you're so against them.

Originally Posted by GorillaRE

But, my "proof" is in the amount of RA supper seal'd engines I've disassembled in the past 12 years. I have YET to see one that would lead me to believe they are anything but junk, in the form of a "seal that wont break". Sure, they are tuff seals, but they will eat your engine from the inside out. Now, I will be honest when I say, that the 2mm varity usually don't do the severe damage. And in fact, may be considered by some to be "normal(ish)" wear marks. But the fact is, that both the 2mm and 3mm leave chatter marks every time.

I refuse to pay for, or suport a seal that does damage to your engine during its running life just because it's "un breakable".

-J

Certainly you've got more experience with these seals than I do. In the roughly 15k miles that I've been using these seals they haven't really left any chatter marks on top of what was already there. I'm also running the stock OMP with an RA adapter and idemitsu plus 1/4oz per gallon in the tank so I'm probably over oiling the engine in certain situations, maybe that's helping? I won't argue that they leave chatter marks compared to the factory seals, but they have saved a few of my engines which is one of the reasons I run them. In my case they've really prolonged my engines.

So, what do you rec?

[TitaniumTT]

OUCH! Damn man, sorry to see that.

That shopping list looks good... personally unless I have to, I don't reuse side seals. Corner seals..... meh, sometimes.

If I were building this engine, giving that you're looking for ~500whp I would start off with an RX8 shaft and bearings/stat gears.
Those rotors don't look all that happy and they contacted the irons. So if your rotors in the other engine are useable I would send those off to get clearanced, balanced and cryo-treated along with the irons.
Then I'd use new side seals and springs, and I love the RA Super Seals. I dett'ed my engine at 10psi and 17:1 afrs in TX....

That's me though, what happened to the other engine? Spit a seal? You've got 3 months before you need to be on the rd

[speedjunkie]

Thanks for the input guys!

Brian- I thought the rotors looked a little beat but still salvageable, maybe not? I really didn't want to get new ones since those were so new when I put them in HAHA. Whatever the case is, I don't want to do that to another set of new-ish rotors. I'm not sure what happened on the last engine. I parked it one night and jacked it up to get to the flywheel to make sure all the bolts were still tight because I heard some chattering while driving, and I turned the flywheel in the process. The next morning I started it for work and it sounded like crap. I thought it was a stuck seal because I'd experienced that not long before so I kept driving to work and it only got worse so I took it home and couldn't get it running again after that. So far both of my failures have been less than exciting HAHA, but I like it that way as long as costs stay down lol.

I thought about getting a whole new rebuild kit anyway, assuming I could afford it haha, just to make sure I was starting fresh with all new seals again. I'm assuming I'll have to get a few corner seals at the very least though, I still haven't posted pics of the damaged ones. This is going to get expensive fast if I'm sending stuff off to get cryo treated and balanced haha. And a friend of mine said Glenn Weaver tweaked an RX-8 e-shaft so bad the engine wouldn't run, but that's the only failure story I've heard so far.

Jonathan- How much is a new engine from Ray? I can't imagine having that much money laying around...that is of course unless I get the homebuyer's tax credit or whatever LOL. Maybe I can get a new engine and have it ported, cryo'd and all that and put back together with whatever seals I want lol. I like the solid corner seals, I don't know why, I guess just because it's one piece instead of two and having the little rubber plug in there lol. I've heard people say before that the RA seals are so tough they eat the housings and that's why I had given up on them for a while, but I've heard more people recently professing their love for them so I figured I'd give them a shot. I'd rather stay away from 3mm seals regardless though.

I'm actually getting excited about tearing the other engine down lol. It's been almost 4 years since it's run. I never knew what was wrong with it but I always intended on having it built and standing by for when this engine went. It sure does sneak up on you LOL.

[TitaniumTT]

Those rotors look like they'd be great candidates for some 3mm seals, but that's just looking at them through the pics, it's hard to tell without the apex seals/feeler gauges in hand. Sounds kinda like the old engine suffered the same type of fate that the current engine suffered.... sucks

Glenn did tweak a Renni shaft. It is the only one that I know of as well. There are rumors that Mazda didn't use the same tempering as they did in the REW shaft which is why it bends and stays bent. Which is what happened to Glenn. The REW shaft is tempered so when it does flex slightly, it returns to it's original position more so than the Renni shaft will. I know there are a bunch of higher hp guys running them, I can't tell you if it's been cryo treated though. I'm running one, but mine along with the rest of my engine is cryo-treated. Don't know if this is what's making the difference. It's all kinda hear say though, I've never seen someone say definitely whether or not its weaker or not. My buddy has a 1986 M1009 CUCV with the 6.2L diesel. He had the thing for maybe a thousand miles before accelerating up a hill and snapping the crankshaft. Bought a boneyard pull out and just got the thing running last night. Looking at the break, it kinda looks like a shitty casting.... have you ever seen one of those 6.2L's snap a crank like that?

Johnathan - I'm all up for some experimenting with reasonably priced seals in a boosted engine. How much experience do you have long term with the ALS seals? Like tearing down a 50k engine and not seeing any chatter marks? How do they compare in weight to the OEM or the RA seals?

[speedjunkie]

I was thinking the same thing with 3mm seals LOL. Although I'd heard before that they don't seal as well as 2mm seals. Like you said though, everything is heresay. I take everything I hear with a grain of salt but it also makes it very difficult to make a decision lol. All I can go off of is my own experience and who I choose to believe about this or that, ya know? But that's life I guess.

I figure I'll break the old engine open this weekend and see what's usable, if anything. I just called Ray and a new engine is $3800 with core. Yikes. I can't afford that right now. That would take me at least until April to buy that and then I still wouldn't be ready, and that cannot happen LOL.

I've never worked with the M1009 so I couldn't tell you. Sounds like a crap shoot though, like everything else haha.

I think I might stick with the REW e-shaft just in case.

How much does cryo-treating cost generally?

[TitaniumTT]

Yup, but how many 1009's are/were in service? I don't think the army would send a vechile into war when it has a history of snapping cranks. Yet this one did lazily accelerating up a hill on the highway..... sooooo.... yeah. It was low on oil but there were no signs of wear on the bearings. Weird weird shit. Need to take some pics and post them up for the engineer types to look at. Silly boinger engines

I forgot what I paid, but it was damn cheap to get everything done. I also have the advantage of being able to drive over to Dave's, drop it off, and pick it up a week or so later. I'd give him a buzz. Speed1/KDR http://www.kdrotary.com/

[speedjunkie]

No I hear what you're saying, I'd imagine they would be sturdy and for one to snap while there is hardly any force applied is just kooky. That's what I meant when I said it was a crap shoot, so I guess I used the wrong term haha. Yeah, boinger engines, who needs 'em?! lol

What all did you get done? The irons, housings, rotors and e-shaft or was there more?