FC Zach's '87 Sport

[project86]

Originally Posted by TitaniumTT

WOOT for easy fixes! If only my trans were that easy to fix

No such things as easy fixes.

Originally Posted by FC Zach

I'm glad it was an easy fix, sure did save me a lot of headache! Now the search continues for the power harness. Oh yeah, I still gotta fix that alternator issue too.

No such things as easy fixes.

[FC Zach]

Originally Posted by project86

No such things as easy fixes.

Ha Ha! ! In your case, NO!

[TitaniumTT]

Originally Posted by djmtsu

Every time I talk to you on the phone lately, you've been like....

Blah blah blah I'm drunk

Blah blah blah blah I'm about to get drunk

Blah blah blah herp derp I'm working on Pete's FC

Originally Posted by Pete_89T2

I suppose that's why he needs to be drunk!

Because Rotary or because talking to DJ

Originally Posted by FC Zach

Ha Ha! ! In your case, NO!

I can pretty much guarantee it's an easy fix on Kyle's car. The hard part is going to be finding the problem

[FC Zach]

That's what I said.

[project86]

Thats what she said.

[FC Zach]

Buttoned everything up and took her for a spin, everything works great! Also received a response regarding the harness, I'm sending mine off for a quote tomorrow.

[FC Zach]

Summary of the last few months. . .

For starters, I should have never sent my charge/start harness off. Complete waste of time! What should have been a quick turnaround or a simple can't-do-it, burned over a month of my time. When I finally asked for it to be returned prior to leaving for my honeymoon, it was forgotten about. . I returned over a week later to no package (I called) and didn't receive it till days before DGRR! No worries, I was able to build a fairly decent looking piece with a salvageable harness from Charles' spare car.

If it's not one thing, it's another Go EFI they said, It'll be fun the said!

The day before DGRR I couldn't get my car to start, and it was running the day before! I narrowed it down to a short in the harness at the ECU. I was able to get it to run long enough to walk over and wiggle things. As soon as I touched the harness to Haltech the car died instantly! Being extremely tired and running on fumes, I called it quits before doing something I'd regret (I used to have patience, still working on the temper issue) but decided to pull the harness before going to bed. Unfortunately my car wasn't going to make it (again) but I'm glad I pulled the harness because I saw that LMSEFI would be attending the event and I could show him my issue. Here's what I found:





The wire in question is the black wire next to purple.


Expensive paper weight removed for inspection


I get to DGRR and present this new issue to Ludwig and he was curious what the ECU looked like after seeing the discoloration. . I disassembled the ECU there and I get the news I was dreading. . The ECU is damaged (I wish I took a picture of it, the terminals to the board burned away on the backside of the connector) No worries, he took the harness back with him to inspect further after DGRR and also sent the ECU to Haltech for repair (if they can repair).

Still waiting on word about the ECU and the harness issue is still being diagnosed. I kind of wish I never went EFI, this has been a headache since day one. . Literally! Most have great results with standalone ECU/harness upgrades. Me, not so much. . I have the "Luck of the Irish"

Anyways, that's my sob story. I just wanted to vent a little since I'm reminded if this every single day as I walk past a dusty RX7.

[Johnny_K]

nice summary, I know it sucks.

I've considered going efi on the truck. I think i will keep it carbed for now.

[jacobcartmill]

Originally Posted by FC Zach

If it's not one thing, it's another Go EFI they said, It'll be fun the said!

...

I kind of wish I never went EFI, this has been a headache since day one. . Literally! Most have great results with standalone ECU/harness upgrades. Me, not so much. . I have the "Luck of the Irish"

...

Anyways, that's my sob story. I just wanted to vent a little since I'm reminded if this every single day as I walk past a dusty RX7.

Zach,

I've had this discussion with a few friends before with their projects when they become frustrated; while i appreciate a good "venting" (and I legitimately feel for you in this situation) you have to present this in a realistic way, and not simply blame "EFI" as if the problems are inherent.
here is my understanding of the project:

1. (complexity) you ordered a very custom harness for a unique project, including a milspec firewall connector, a custom fuse box, aftermarket injectors on an aftermarket carb-style intake manifold, an aftermarket crank trigger, a custom LS1 coil-on-plug setup, and a not-widely-used rotary ECU (most haltech people use the platinum series, and now the elite series) that has a different ECU connector than most others.

2. (more complexity) this work was all done via mail order, which adds even more risk -- likelihood of things not working correctly. many small things can be left out of phone conversations and email - errors or things that may be easily caught if the car is right in front of the person building the harness.

3. (more complexity as a result of complexity) your setup is so far from stock that you can't simply load a decent base map and drive the car, so even more tuning is required than usual. you have me and pauly available to help with this portion (as we both), and as I recall, we got things running quite well in many situations: full throttle at 12:1 AFR, cold start (minus the custom BAC valve and setup that we couldn't figure out) hot start, idle, cruising, ~2% o2 control activated (in our recent tuning session) in low load and idle.

4. I recall you being very happy with the setup and tuning prior to the harness/ground issue popping up. was this not the case?



big picture:
this is your first EFI project, and frankly, it could not be more complex.
furthermore, why did you go EFI in the first place? what drew you to it? was your carburetor working correctly and tuned nicely to run in all situations the car sees? if so, why not put a carb back on the car?

ultimately, you can't blame EFI for this. you have to blame the situation and the complexity of this project. you ordered a very custom mail order harness, and it had a couple errors (one of which apparently killed the ECU)

you didn't simply "go efi," which I would consider installing a stock T2 longblock and haltech into your car.
you went "very complex custom EFI harness via mail order to mate several different custom parts together" and you're seeing the product of the multiplied risk biting you in the ass.


I broke this down for JohnnyK recently with his "the most difficult custom FD project possible" when he was discouraged. he made a couple changes, got back on track, and now it's working out great. now you go do the same: bug the piss out of Ludwig, have some conversations with him and stay on him to fix the harness issue and replace the ECU, get the harness back, and the project is basically done, correct?

[FC Zach]

Originally Posted by jacobcartmill

Zach,

I've had this discussion with a few friends before with their projects when they become frustrated; while i appreciate a good "venting" (and I legitimately feel for you in this situation) you have to present this in a realistic way, and not simply blame "EFI" as if the problems are inherent.

Yes, you are correct. . It's not an inherent problem for "EFI". .

Originally Posted by jacobcartmill

here is my understanding of the project:
1. (complexity) you ordered a very custom harness for a unique project, including a milspec firewall connector, a custom fuse box, aftermarket injectors on an aftermarket carb-style intake manifold, an aftermarket crank trigger, a custom LS1 coil-on-plug setup, and a not-widely-used rotary ECU (most haltech people use the platinum series, and now the elite series) that has a different ECU connector than most others.

-Custom harness: Yes but what is "very" custom? How is it any different for anything else? Our cars aren't cookie cutter cars, so all these custom harnesses will be tailored to one's application. .
-Connector: What complication does this pose other than expense and work for the builder?
-Fuse box: Is this not standard equipment? If not, why?
-Everything else mentioned: All other items mentioned are basic components for any EFI system to operate. . Sure some components may be "different" but they still serve the same purpose. Also, the injectors are common Bosch injectors mounted in the center iron, not on the TB like some. As for the ECU, what does not-widely-used have to do with "(complexity)" considering I searched for a computer that best suited my needs, seems stupid-simple to me. . . Is it that the software is different? Is it that it's harder to tune?

Originally Posted by jacobcartmill

2. (more complexity) this work was all done via mail order, which adds even more risk -- likelihood of things not working correctly. many small things can be left out of phone conversations and email - errors or things that may be easily caught if the car is right in front of the person building the harness.

I can't say anything about this except that I completely agree! ! I/We found and corrected a couple issues and I still had to return the harness for that trigger wheel sensor issue.

Originally Posted by jacobcartmill

3. (more complexity as a result of complexity) your setup is so far from stock that you can't simply load a decent base map and drive the car, so even more tuning is required than usual. you have me and pauly available to help with this portion (as we both), and as I recall, we got things running quite well in many situations: full throttle at 12:1 AFR, cold start (minus the custom BAC valve and setup that we couldn't figure out) hot start, idle, cruising, ~2% o2 control activated (in our recent tuning session) in low load and idle.

Yes, it's not stock and far from it but again, is it really that different from anything else that you're starting from scratch with? Yes it's unfortunate there aren't a million other individuals with the same set-up as mine to copy/paste a MAP but you guys seemed to do well with nothing to start with. I appreciate all the help from you guys! Without help from individuals like yourself who have experience with this stuff as well as an understanding of how it all works, I wouldn't know where to start. . Throwing a laptop at me and telling me to figure it out doesn't work, I need guidance and supervision especially with something I'm not comfortable with in the first place. So again, Thank you!

Originally Posted by jacobcartmill

4. I recall you being very happy with the setup and tuning prior to the harness/ground issue popping up. was this not the case?

Yes, I'm happy when things work

Originally Posted by jacobcartmill

big picture:
this is your first EFI project, and frankly, it could not be more complex.
furthermore, why did you go EFI in the first place? what drew you to it? was your carburetor working correctly and tuned nicely to run in all situations the car sees? if so, why not put a carb back on the car?

-I went EFI to do something different. . but still wanting to stay 'true to my roots' and keep the bay tidy and simple is why I chose the components I did. This took years of research.
-I was drawn to EFI around the time FAST, Holley, MSD and others came out with the self learning bolt on kits. Many phone calls and time spent with tech support discouraged me for years after (these kits wont work for various reasons) but there was still part of me that wanted to pursue this new uncharted territory. . .
-(*see note) Until the year or so before removing the carb stuff, the car ran great! I know that's hard for you to believe being that you're one of those EFI Elitist but it really ran great! It was neck and neck with Robs turbo 7 at DGRR one year, it was neck and neck with a 398hp EVO in an 1/8th mile, and it was simple! Dead-nuts-simple! If it broke, I could have it going in no time at all. Something happens now and I'm F'ed because I'm too dependent on others especially if its a harness issue.
-Put the stuff back on? ? You know, I seriously considered this thought many times! I mean really considered it, there's part of me that misses the simpler times where I could just get in, turn the key, and go. . But this simply can not happen as I have sold every single component from the old set-up.
*and even if I still had all the necessary components to go back to carb (aside from the fact that I'm in too deep giggity), I wouldn't because the performance started degrading. . was it the carb? I don't know but it got to the point that I had to do something because I couldn't enjoy the car on any of our trips without some carb related issue. It was at B3R ~2013/4 that was the last straw that helped push me into the EFI world when I had one carb issue after the other.

Originally Posted by jacobcartmill

ultimately, you can't blame EFI for this. you have to blame the situation and the complexity of this project. you ordered a very custom mail order harness, and it had a couple errors (one of which apparently killed the ECU)

No, I'm just upset about all the issues I've dealt with along the way! All were mistakes that should have never happened but they did and I'm saltier than the Dead Sea because of it but I'm somewhat over it and just want to get this POS running. And again. . . a custom harness is a custom harness, what makes mine with the bare minimums (minus the bulkhead connector) any more complex than a REW harness? ?

Originally Posted by jacobcartmill

you didn't simply "go efi," which I would consider installing a stock T2 longblock and haltech into your car.
you went "very complex custom EFI harness via mail order to mate several different custom parts together" and you're seeing the product of the multiplied risk biting you in the ass.

And again. . blah blah blah. . no different than. . . 3rd gen, all-out-kustom, tricked-out-yo. . harness! That most importantly. . was built by a professional that does this sort of stuff for a living. But you are correct in biting me in the ass!

Originally Posted by jacobcartmill

I broke this down for JohnnyK recently with his "the most difficult custom FD project possible" when he was discouraged. he made a couple changes, got back on track, and now it's working out great. now you go do the same: bug the piss out of Ludwig, have some conversations with him and stay on him to fix the harness issue and replace the ECU, get the harness back, and the project is basically done, correct?

Yes, but I absolutely hate "bugging the piss out of" anyone to get things done. . that and I want it done right without rushing it so I'm giving him his space but within reason. . I'll call next week since I haven't heard from him at all this week and get more details on everything.

[FC Zach]

Originally Posted by jacobcartmill

you didn't simply "go efi," which I would consider installing a stock T2 longblock and haltech into your car.
you went "very complex custom EFI harness via mail order to mate several different custom parts together" and you're seeing the product of the multiplied risk biting you in the ass.

To elaborate on the components more:
-The TPS, it's an off-the-shelf GM part.

-The FFE trigger wheel sensor is a readily available part from any auto parts store as well. .

-(Mentioned earlier) "a custom LS1 coil-on-plug setup" is really just coils with short wire leads to the plugs, I got rid of the COP adapters.


-Like already mentioned, the injectors are Bosch and to my knowledge widely used. .


All parts mentioned are compatible with the SprintRE, I did my best to make sure of that.

The only roadblock I hit along the way when it came to compatibility was the idle air control. . My TB accepts a GM stepper motor design and a SprintRE will only control a two wire design. I knew this up front but it wasn't until recently that I got the idea to modify an OE 2nd gen BAC to use on my TB.

[FC Zach]

Furthermore, I want it to be known that I do enjoy the car fuel injected (don't think I don't) but only when it works obviously. It's not until I get over all these damn hurdles and can really enjoy the car when I'll be happy. I've owned this car since high school (13 years ago) when I literally saved it from the scrap yard and have put blood and sweat into the damn thing to get it to where it is today. . So it upsets me when my now wife asks me why I don't just sell it. . Because she thinks I would be happier without it. Truth is, she's probably right but lets be honest here. . It's a 2nd and will never sell for what I think it's worth so I'm stuck with this one. I just hope the last hurdle is near.

[djmtsu]

Carb life yo.

It's the new hotness. I turn the key, witchcraft happens, and it runs. And those 5 wires in the engine bay were a hassle to sort out.....

Ahhhhh

[infernosg]

Damn, sorry to hear about the ECU. Hopefully the issue isn't related to something I may have done - it sat in a box for most of its life with me and never actually received power. You're the second person I know of recently with harness issues...

I somewhat agree with the sentiment above but not for "because EFI" reasons. Like me, you changed a bunch of stuff, not necessarily uncommon or unique, but all at once, which opens up a ton of opportunities for failure.

[FC Zach]

Originally Posted by djmtsu

Carb life yo.

It's the new hotness. I turn the key, witchcraft happens, and it runs. And those 5 wires in the engine bay were a hassle to sort out.....

Ahhhhh

LOL, rub it in asshole

Originally Posted by infernosg

Damn, sorry to hear about the ECU. Hopefully the issue isn't related to something I may have done - it sat in a box for most of its life with me and never actually received power. You're the second person I know of recently with harness issues...

I somewhat agree with the sentiment above but not for "because EFI" reasons. Like me, you changed a bunch of stuff, not necessarily uncommon or unique, but all at once, which opens up a ton of opportunities for failure.

This issue wasn't from you. . I looked the ECU all over when it arrived and the heat/smoke mark wasn't there.

Understand that I'm not so naive as to think that there wouldn't be any issue/s, but that I would have never expected these issues to be to the extent that I have dealt with. Granted, to give me some credit. . all these issues I have dealt with were out of my control.