My mechanical preturbo water injection

dudemaaan · 10-09-2009, 10:28 PM

Haha it's all good

Garfinkles Motor Works · 01-29-2010, 11:38 AM

This is the bike I built in the early 80s with mechinal water / alcohol injection .Kaw 900 bored to 1400cc, rajay turbo, all hand made.Still running.

hades · 01-29-2010, 07:36 PM

Why does having the water go into the turbo inlet help vs. out of the turbo before the intercooler? Wouldn't the water do the same cooling effect in the intercooler as in the compressor housing? Just wondering.

dudemaaan · 01-29-2010, 09:44 PM

Well for one the compressor really helps to atomize the water which makes it easier to flash and easier to burn in the engine. Also, in my case it HAS to be preturbo because its driven by the turbo. If it was insalled post turbo the pressure would equalize and i would have no water flow at all. There is also evidence that water injected preturbo exdends the compressor map, making the turbo more efficient at higher boost levels.

hades · 01-30-2010, 08:44 AM

forgot about the pressure differential--few beers will do that.

I still wonder about the atomization since it goes through the intercooler--would it still be atomzied?

your still getting awesome results either way.

88turboii · 02-01-2010, 07:46 AM

"extending the compressor map" doesnt that just mean adds a bunch of lag? I would wager the misted water puts a lot of resistance on the comp blades, slowing spool time.. post-turbo, not a problem. dudeman have you do done any testing of turbo lag with and without WI? how much are you to expect

thinking about adding a small amount of WI for my hybrid turbo setup with an ARC tmic. intake temps in boost get up to 150F in the summer

dudemaaan · 02-01-2010, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 88turboii

"extending the compressor map" doesnt that just mean adds a bunch of lag? I would wager the misted water puts a lot of resistance on the comp blades, slowing spool time.. post-turbo, not a problem. dudeman have you do done any testing of turbo lag with and without WI? how much are you to expect

thinking about adding a small amount of WI for my hybrid turbo setup with an ARC tmic. intake temps in boost get up to 150F in the summer

Has absolutely no effect on spool. I first set the water on at 3 psi and It actually seemed like spool was very slightly increased. Maybe due to increased density or maybe in my head. I was running out of water too quickly so I set it to 8 psi. I don't notice any difference in spool at all. I run a laggy turbo so changes in spool is one thing I WILL notice.

The reason most likely that the compressor map is extended is because:
As a turbo's efficiency decreases the air temps start climbing, once the air temps exceed 212*F the water will flash and start bringing the air temps back down. So more power can still be made at boost levels that normally would just cause excessive hot air.

That's my take on it anyways, my turbo is pretty big so I have no way of really testing it out unless I take it to 30 psi or so.

RICE RACING · 02-13-2010, 08:03 PM

Its good to see I have had an influence on the popularity of this technology

RICE RACING · 02-13-2010, 10:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bbade

This sounds like a great idea, i'm surprised nobody has thought of using the boost pressure to make a mechanical injection system. I too prefer mechanical systems as they are much less likely to fail, i'm interested to hear more.

Its been done for ever!

Of modern times its been the way since Eldred Norman finished 4th in the 1956 Australia Grand Prix.

Every decent mechanical engineer on the planet since Ricardo has bestowed it virtues and ALL following him of any note have also applied it and show examples of how to do it properly. Modern age turbo charger pioneers and who brought this to the masses (note: Hugh McInnes is the DON!) wax lyrical about water injection in all of his publications.

I was about the first rotary person to apply & widely educate people about this EXACT system in 1992 and since then lots of people have followed my lead in using these exact system parts and tuning theory

I remember the days in early function of forums where I would be roped into arguments with total clowns about water injection and how its a band aid (Corkey Bell anyone! *first class clown right there!*) ........... now every man and his dog is trying to ca$h in on water injection and think they have rediscovered the wheel.

Here is some testing of my original systems which have been emulated as stated

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Lizxy3XIY8

http://www.riceracing.com.au/water-injection.htm

I am happy to see that others are having the same great results I have been having for almost 2 decades

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sW4vP...eature=related

dudemaaan · 02-18-2010, 12:53 PM

Thought I might update this a little. I made a system for a forum member on the other thread. Redesigned a few things. Came out nice. I used push lock fittings and mounted the solenoid directly to the nozzle to eliminate any chances of dripping after shutoff. Put a meter valve so water flow can be adjusted. Opened the nozzle up to 1mm to increase flow capacity a little more. I took several closeups of the nozzle and how the solenoid is attached.

RICE RACING · 02-18-2010, 04:51 PM

FYI the nozzel will not drip no matter where the solenoid is located

*does not need to be that close and it will simplify the install.

dudemaaan · 02-18-2010, 05:05 PM

Actually I think having the nozzle mounted on the nozzle will simplify the install unless space is a concern, in which case it can always be moved. With the solenoid mounted to the nozzle you only have to mount one and they will both mounted. I personally think it's nicer this way compared to how I first did it. I figure if you have a foot of hose with water in it with the car bouncing around and such, it could drip out of the end since it has nothing to keep it in.

RICE RACING · 02-18-2010, 05:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dudemaaan

Actually I think having the nozzle mounted on the nozzle will simplify the install unless space is a concern, in which case it can always be moved. With the solenoid mounted to the nozzle you only have to mount one and they will both mounted. I personally think it's nicer this way compared to how I first did it. I figure if you have a foot of hose with water in it with the car bouncing around and such, it could drip out of the end since it has nothing to keep it in.

no never happen, you need to test it to see for yourself.

mounting is a good point, I understand what your saying there. I tried it and I went back to the other way as its more flexible for people who have given me feedback, also the solenoid can be kept cooler as well, something you need to take into account.

anyway it looks good, very familiar

dudemaaan · 02-18-2010, 05:56 PM

Thanks Peter. I do really like the push lock fittings. I had a hard time finding them, but they are very nice to work with. I wouldn't mind using them for my other vacuum lines, but I'm not sure how the nylon hose would hold up in the engine bay of an RX7. I'm sure for the water injection it will be fine though.

dudemaaan · 03-05-2010, 11:31 PM

Here's a video Rdahm did of the kit. He will also be doing an install video after he finishes getting his turbo oil lines and such.

10-09-2009, 10:28 PM	#61
dudemaaan Rotary Fanatic Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Brenham, TX iTrader: (4) Posts: 335 Rep Power: 17	Haha it's all good __________________ 500+ HP thanks to: Fast reacting IAT sensor thread! Mechanical Pre-turbo Water Injection Thread Dual Stock fuel pumps Thread T2 differential swap!

01-29-2010, 07:36 PM	#63
hades Rotary Fanatic Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Freedom Land iTrader: (0) Posts: 316 Rep Power: 17	Why does having the water go into the turbo inlet help vs. out of the turbo before the intercooler? Wouldn't the water do the same cooling effect in the intercooler as in the compressor housing? Just wondering. __________________ This is going to tear

01-29-2010, 09:44 PM	#64
dudemaaan Rotary Fanatic Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Brenham, TX iTrader: (4) Posts: 335 Rep Power: 17	Well for one the compressor really helps to atomize the water which makes it easier to flash and easier to burn in the engine. Also, in my case it HAS to be preturbo because its driven by the turbo. If it was insalled post turbo the pressure would equalize and i would have no water flow at all. There is also evidence that water injected preturbo exdends the compressor map, making the turbo more efficient at higher boost levels. __________________ 500+ HP thanks to: Fast reacting IAT sensor thread! Mechanical Pre-turbo Water Injection Thread Dual Stock fuel pumps Thread T2 differential swap! Last edited by dudemaaan; 01-29-2010 at 09:49 PM..

01-30-2010, 08:44 AM	#65
hades Rotary Fanatic Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Freedom Land iTrader: (0) Posts: 316 Rep Power: 17	forgot about the pressure differential--few beers will do that. I still wonder about the atomization since it goes through the intercooler--would it still be atomzied? your still getting awesome results either way. __________________ This is going to tear

02-13-2010, 08:03 PM	#68
RICE RACING Don Mega Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Utopia iTrader: (0) Posts: 1,688 Rep Power: 17	Its good to see I have had an influence on the popularity of this technology __________________ www.riceracing.com.au Worlds best Apex Seals Coil on Plug Water Injection ECU Calibration

02-01-2010, 07:46 AM	#66
88turboii destroy, rebuild, repeat Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Charleston, SC iTrader: (0) Posts: 395 Rep Power: 17	"extending the compressor map" doesnt that just mean adds a bunch of lag? I would wager the misted water puts a lot of resistance on the comp blades, slowing spool time.. post-turbo, not a problem. dudeman have you do done any testing of turbo lag with and without WI? how much are you to expect thinking about adding a small amount of WI for my hybrid turbo setup with an ARC tmic. intake temps in boost get up to 150F in the summer

02-18-2010, 12:53 PM	#70
dudemaaan Rotary Fanatic Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Brenham, TX iTrader: (4) Posts: 335 Rep Power: 17	Thought I might update this a little. I made a system for a forum member on the other thread. Redesigned a few things. Came out nice. I used push lock fittings and mounted the solenoid directly to the nozzle to eliminate any chances of dripping after shutoff. Put a meter valve so water flow can be adjusted. Opened the nozzle up to 1mm to increase flow capacity a little more. I took several closeups of the nozzle and how the solenoid is attached. __________________ 500+ HP thanks to: Fast reacting IAT sensor thread! Mechanical Pre-turbo Water Injection Thread Dual Stock fuel pumps Thread T2 differential swap!

02-18-2010, 04:51 PM	#71
RICE RACING Don Mega Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Utopia iTrader: (0) Posts: 1,688 Rep Power: 17	FYI the nozzel will not drip no matter where the solenoid is located does not need to be that close and it will simplify the install. __________________ www.riceracing.com.au* Worlds best Apex Seals Coil on Plug Water Injection ECU Calibration

02-18-2010, 05:05 PM	#72
dudemaaan Rotary Fanatic Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Brenham, TX iTrader: (4) Posts: 335 Rep Power: 17	Actually I think having the nozzle mounted on the nozzle will simplify the install unless space is a concern, in which case it can always be moved. With the solenoid mounted to the nozzle you only have to mount one and they will both mounted. I personally think it's nicer this way compared to how I first did it. I figure if you have a foot of hose with water in it with the car bouncing around and such, it could drip out of the end since it has nothing to keep it in. __________________ 500+ HP thanks to: Fast reacting IAT sensor thread! Mechanical Pre-turbo Water Injection Thread Dual Stock fuel pumps Thread T2 differential swap!

02-18-2010, 05:56 PM	#74
dudemaaan Rotary Fanatic Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Brenham, TX iTrader: (4) Posts: 335 Rep Power: 17	Thanks Peter. I do really like the push lock fittings. I had a hard time finding them, but they are very nice to work with. I wouldn't mind using them for my other vacuum lines, but I'm not sure how the nylon hose would hold up in the engine bay of an RX7. I'm sure for the water injection it will be fine though. __________________ 500+ HP thanks to: Fast reacting IAT sensor thread! Mechanical Pre-turbo Water Injection Thread Dual Stock fuel pumps Thread T2 differential swap!

03-05-2010, 11:31 PM	#75
dudemaaan Rotary Fanatic Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Brenham, TX iTrader: (4) Posts: 335 Rep Power: 17	Here's a video Rdahm did of the kit. He will also be doing an install video after he finishes getting his turbo oil lines and such. __________________ 500+ HP thanks to: Fast reacting IAT sensor thread! Mechanical Pre-turbo Water Injection Thread Dual Stock fuel pumps Thread T2 differential swap!