New fuel setup

[speedjunkie]

I've decided to upgrade my fuel again and I have a few questions. I picked up a CJ Motorsports hanger for dual Bosch 044s, and I'm getting the tank-in-tank surge tank from HPP. I'm planning on following this write-up...

http://www.rx7club.com/3rd-generatio...lights-998596/

...so I can wire in indicators to watch my fuel pumps, and since he's fairly local and because I hate wiring and diagrams, he's going to help me make the harnesses so I can just install it when I get back home.

My concern now is what gauge wire to use, where to find wire, solderless connectors, and hose that can be submerged in fuel, etc. Anyone know where to find that? Paging Brian T...lol

I'm also thinking about trying to use some new, larger hard line from the rear to the engine bay like I've seen a couple people do on here. And I'm wondering what else I need for running dual pumps...check valves, which Y fitting to get (6ANs to 8AN, or if I can do 6ANs to 6AN without damaging the pumps with back pressure or whatever), etc.

[Mitchocalypse]

I can try a few of these..

What I've been recommended a few times was 10 gauge wire going to the fuel pumps with a proper bulkhead connector and not just a plug.
I'm not sure but I wasn't able to find any special wire to be used in tank so that led me to believe that it could just use any automotive grade wire. Although I'm not 100% on that one so that would be good to hear as well as I may have to re work my In tank wiring as well.

Check valves shouldn't be needed because I'm pretty sure most pumps have one on the outlet. Definitely wouldn't hurt to check to see if the 044s do though.

And about -6 or -8, I don't think the -6 would hurt the pumps any, but at the poitnt where you're t-ing the line, why not just go -8? Won't cost *that* much more

[speedjunkie]

Yeah I've seen people modify the stock hangers with bulkhead connectors but I figured the connector on the CJM hanger might be upgraded enough to handle the extra amps. I definitely want to make sure to use some submersible wire if it's available.

OK cool. I'm gonna have to see if has a check valve. There is a piece bolted into the outlet but I'm gonna have to remove that to get them to fit into the hanger.

I'm not worried about the Y fitting costing more, I'm just thinking about the added work of running a larger line all the way to the front haha. I plan on doing it at some point, but if I can wait to do it I might do that.

[FerociousP]

I believe in that thread he discussed the use of check valves to separate the pressure sensors for each pump. Without the check valves, If one pump failed, the other pump would just pressurize that part of the line, and both sensors would still read the same.

[speedjunkie]

Oh OK, that makes sense. Thanks for clearing that up!

[TitaniumTT]

Originally Posted by speedjunkie

I've decided to upgrade my fuel again and I have a few questions. I picked up a CJ Motorsports hanger for dual Bosch 044s, and I'm getting the tank-in-tank surge tank from HPP. I'm planning on following this write-up...

Dual Bosch's huh? Did you get the optional muffler device?

Originally Posted by speedjunkie

My concern now is what gauge wire to use, where to find wire, solderless connectors, and hose that can be submerged in fuel, etc. Anyone know where to find that? Paging Brian T...lol

Ok Eric... here are my questions.... when you say bulkhead connector, are you referring to a connector that can be unplugged or are you referring to something that will allow the wires to pass through without breaking the connection? I know Charles uses a GM connector that he machines a lip into for the connector.

I would get in contact with Charles and see what those terminals are rated for and what wire gauge HE recommends. 10Ga is HUGE... most are rated for over 30A! You could run 1 pair of 10ga wires and power both your pumps.

However, if the connector is only designed to accept an 18 or 16ga wire (as mine is) than you have a problem. The solution is to double up on the wires, however I'm not sure if you're going to have enough pins in the socket. Lets say for example that your Bosch pump draws 14A at full song, which is does http://radiumauto.com/media/techarticle-page.php?Radium-s-Ultimate-Fuel-Pump-Test-87, also a nice little bit on the noise level and you have a pin designed for 18 ga wire. Well, that pin and wire combo can only handle about 11A. So, you need to pass 2 wire through for the 12v+ and 2 for the 12v- per pump. A total of 8 wires just to power the pumps. Then 2 more for the sender and the low level.... assuming you're still using them... But, that will give you more than enough current carrying capacity. I you're using a watertight bulkhead passthrough connector, they yeah, rock the 10 or 12 ga all the way through. Personally, I would use a 14ga, but that's me. 14ga is good to 17 or 18A. People start using ridiculously sized wire because they use cheap shit, don't know better, or just don't like working with the smaller wire. I was rewiring a bunch of shit last night to clean it up and I was getting annoyed with some of the 22ga wire in my harness. A lot of people use 14 wire to power their inejctors.... I use 20ga. This is all Tefzel though... ETFE I think... Which is what I would be running in the tank.

The Bosch's have studs on them. So really any eyelet will work, just bolt them down using the supplies nuts. They are two different sizes though, just be aware...

If you need to make an electrical butt connection in the tank, you'll need some Viton heatshrink. Shit aint cheap, I can't remember where I bought it from.

All the wire and connectors can be had from ProWireUsa... talk to Joe, he'll get you all set up with everything you need.... he may even have the heatshrink, although I think I bought mine through MoTeC when I got my bulkhead connector.... Lemme see if I can dig up some pics of my fuel cell setup... they're on a different laptop, but they're also in one of my build threads... yeah... that's like 200 pages to go through... lemme see what I can find...

Originally Posted by speedjunkie

I'm also thinking about trying to use some new, larger hard line from the rear to the engine bay like I've seen a couple people do on here. And I'm wondering what else I need for running dual pumps...check valves, which Y fitting to get (6ANs to 8AN, or if I can do 6ANs to 6AN without damaging the pumps with back pressure or whatever), etc.

If it we're me... I would skip the check valves and run two separate and independent lines, one feeding each of the rails, and then join them at the regulator. And I would use -6 if going that direction. If joining them, I would run a -8.

Originally Posted by speedjunkie

Yeah I've seen people modify the stock hangers with bulkhead connectors but I figured the connector on the CJM hanger might be upgraded enough to handle the extra amps. I definitely want to make sure to use some submersible wire if it's available.

I would talk to Charles to see what those pins are rated for.... you may be disappointed in what they can actually carry...

Originally Posted by speedjunkie

OK cool. I'm gonna have to see if has a check valve. There is a piece bolted into the outlet but I'm gonna have to remove that to get them to fit into the hanger.

I believe the Bosch pumps do have a check valve... but I'm not sure if its a check valve that will hold the full pressure that the pump will put out. It may only hold like 10 or 15psi to keep a little fuel in the line to aid in start up.

Originally Posted by speedjunkie

I'm not worried about the Y fitting costing more, I'm just thinking about the added work of running a larger line all the way to the front haha. I plan on doing it at some point, but if I can wait to do it I might do that.

FWIW - I made 540 RWHP on an FD running 1 Stealth 340 and stock lines. Would I do it on my car? No... just saying...

I remember reading something about submersible line, but can't find it now.

To my knowledge, the only real submersible fuel line is the pushloc stuff offered by Aeromotive. It's the same material through the hose from the inside out. So if it's designed to handle fuel on the inside, it'll handle it on the outside as well. That's what I ran and 5 years later, it still looks great.

Now.... lemme go find some pics

[FerociousP]

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I used this when adding my 09 pump into my rx8 (siphon extension).

the bad review is because he didn't know it was for only 1ft, lol.

[TitaniumTT]

pics starting here

http://rotarycarclub.com/rotary_foru...=10116&page=28

Post 412 if you have different post/page view...

[speedjunkie]

Originally Posted by TitaniumTT

Dual Bosch's huh? Did you get the optional muffler device?

LOL I didn't even think about if they were loud or not. I guess I don't need to change my exhaust to be quieter or reroute my dump tubes now lol. Honestly, I'd much rather have gone with smaller pumps too, but it seemed like the 044s were the most reliable out there right now. I was trying to wait for the new one Paul Yaw is working on with Bosch but I can't wait, I need to get this done. I'll switch to that pump down the road sometime.

Originally Posted by TitaniumTT

Ok Eric... here are my questions.... when you say bulkhead connector, are you referring to a connector that can be unplugged or are you referring to something that will allow the wires to pass through without breaking the connection? I know Charles uses a GM connector that he machines a lip into for the connector.

I would get in contact with Charles and see what those terminals are rated for and what wire gauge HE recommends. 10Ga is HUGE... most are rated for over 30A! You could run 1 pair of 10ga wires and power both your pumps.

However, if the connector is only designed to accept an 18 or 16ga wire (as mine is) than you have a problem. The solution is to double up on the wires, however I'm not sure if you're going to have enough pins in the socket. Lets say for example that your Bosch pump draws 14A at full song, which is does http://radiumauto.com/media/techarticle-page.php?Radium-s-Ultimate-Fuel-Pump-Test-87, also a nice little bit on the noise level and you have a pin designed for 18 ga wire. Well, that pin and wire combo can only handle about 11A. So, you need to pass 2 wire through for the 12v+ and 2 for the 12v- per pump. A total of 8 wires just to power the pumps. Then 2 more for the sender and the low level.... assuming you're still using them... But, that will give you more than enough current carrying capacity. I you're using a watertight bulkhead passthrough connector, they yeah, rock the 10 or 12 ga all the way through. Personally, I would use a 14ga, but that's me. 14ga is good to 17 or 18A. People start using ridiculously sized wire because they use cheap shit, don't know better, or just don't like working with the smaller wire. I was rewiring a bunch of shit last night to clean it up and I was getting annoyed with some of the 22ga wire in my harness. A lot of people use 14 wire to power their inejctors.... I use 20ga. This is all Tefzel though... ETFE I think... Which is what I would be running in the tank.

I wasn't talking about a bulkhead. I was just talking about the connector on the CJ Motorsports hanger.

OK I'll get ahold of Charles then. I never thought about asking him what they could handle. I thought about asking him what gauge he would suggest but I figured I'd check to see what others used first.

The CJM connector has six pins, so I was planning on using two for the sender and low level, and then the other four for the two pumps. I was planning on using something larger than 18ga if I can, I'll probably do 14ga, but I'll check with Charles first. I want to get really good wiring for the fuel pumps, I'm not playing around with something as important as that. Do you get the Tefzel/ETFE from ProWireUSA?

Originally Posted by TitaniumTT

The Bosch's have studs on them. So really any eyelet will work, just bolt them down using the supplies nuts. They are two different sizes though, just be aware...

If you need to make an electrical butt connection in the tank, you'll need some Viton heatshrink. Shit aint cheap, I can't remember where I bought it from.

All the wire and connectors can be had from ProWireUsa... talk to Joe, he'll get you all set up with everything you need.... he may even have the heatshrink, although I think I bought mine through MoTeC when I got my bulkhead connector.... Lemme see if I can dig up some pics of my fuel cell setup... they're on a different laptop, but they're also in one of my build threads... yeah... that's like 200 pages to go through... lemme see what I can find...

Yeah I already got the nuts for the studs on the pumps, they were not supplied with mine. I was just curious if there were solderless connectors out there that were good for submerging in fuel or if all solderless connectors were OK for that.

I can't think of why I'd need to make a butt connection in the tank, but maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're saying.

OK I'll talk to Joe. Once I figure out what gauge sizes I need I'll look him up. Thanks!

Originally Posted by TitaniumTT

If it we're me... I would skip the check valves and run two separate and independent lines, one feeding each of the rails, and then join them at the regulator. And I would use -6 if going that direction. If joining them, I would run a -8.

I'd rather just run them together instead of running separate lines for each rail, so I'll probably just get some 3/8" aluminum tubing and join them just outside the tank. I'm not looking forward to bending it like John did with his though lol. Maybe Ambrosio can come to CO and do mine too lol.

Originally Posted by TitaniumTT

I would talk to Charles to see what those pins are rated for.... you may be disappointed in what they can actually carry...

Yeah I'll do that.

Originally Posted by TitaniumTT

I believe the Bosch pumps do have a check valve... but I'm not sure if its a check valve that will hold the full pressure that the pump will put out. It may only hold like 10 or 15psi to keep a little fuel in the line to aid in start up.

I did some research and it seems the Bosch check valve is the part bolted into the outlet and you use a banjo fitting on it, but I'm not sure if that's the same thing I was thinking of. I was just concerned with hurting the fuel pumps if there was too much backpressure, but maybe I'm not understanding what the check valve is for lol. If it won't hurt the pumps, I will just put a 12mm to -6 fitting in there and take out what Bosch put in there.

Originally Posted by TitaniumTT

FWIW - I made 540 RWHP on an FD running 1 Stealth 340 and stock lines. Would I do it on my car? No... just saying...

I remember reading something about submersible line, but can't find it now.

To my knowledge, the only real submersible fuel line is the pushloc stuff offered by Aeromotive. It's the same material through the hose from the inside out. So if it's designed to handle fuel on the inside, it'll handle it on the outside as well. That's what I ran and 5 years later, it still looks great.

Now.... lemme go find some pics

I was looking at the Stealth 340s but it seemed like they weren't as reliable as the 044 after reading some reviews.

OK thanks, I'll check out the Aeromotive line.

Originally Posted by FerociousP

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I used this when adding my 09 pump into my rx8 (siphon extension).

the bad review is because he didn't know it was for only 1ft, lol.

Thanks! I'll check it out.

Yeah that'll do it lol.

Originally Posted by TitaniumTT

pics starting here

http://rotarycarclub.com/rotary_foru...=10116&page=28

Post 412 if you have different post/page view...

Wow. Yeah you always go way further than what I'm planning LOL. Thanks!

[TitaniumTT]

Originally Posted by speedjunkie

LOL I didn't even think about if they were loud or not. I guess I don't need to change my exhaust to be quieter or reroute my dump tubes now lol. Honestly, I'd much rather have gone with smaller pumps too, but it seemed like the 044s were the most reliable out there right now. I was trying to wait for the new one Paul Yaw is working on with Bosch but I can't wait, I need to get this done. I'll switch to that pump down the road sometime.

Oh really? Do you have a link to anything about what Paul is up to now?

Originally Posted by speedjunkie

I wasn't talking about a bulkhead. I was just talking about the connector on the CJ Motorsports hanger.

Ah, Ok... yeah... Yordan wired one of those in at the shop, I don't remember what size wire he ended up using.

Originally Posted by speedjunkie

OK I'll get ahold of Charles then. I never thought about asking him what they could handle. I thought about asking him what gauge he would suggest but I figured I'd check to see what others used first.

It would nice if the pins could handle 14ga wire and north of 15A....

Originally Posted by speedjunkie

The CJM connector has six pins, so I was planning on using two for the sender and low level, and then the other four for the two pumps. I was planning on using something larger than 18ga if I can, I'll probably do 14ga, but I'll check with Charles first. I want to get really good wiring for the fuel pumps, I'm not playing around with something as important as that. Do you get the Tefzel/ETFE from ProWireUSA?

Yeah, I don't know what to do if the pins won't carry enough current. I suppose you could add another bulkhead connector.

Yes, I get the wire from Joe.

Originally Posted by speedjunkie

Yeah I already got the nuts for the studs on the pumps, they were not supplied with mine. I was just curious if there were solderless connectors out there that were good for submerging in fuel or if all solderless connectors were OK for that.

Any connector will work.... It's the heatshrink that is going to be a pain. Joe may have something that will work. I still have a foot or so of Viton heatshrink kicking around.

Originally Posted by speedjunkie

I'd rather just run them together instead of running separate lines for each rail, so I'll probably just get some 3/8" aluminum tubing and join them just outside the tank. I'm not looking forward to bending it like John did with his though lol. Maybe Ambrosio can come to CO and do mine too lol.

OMG... it is such a PITA, I've done it a few times now... it keeps getting easier but it is still such an aggravating adventure in testing patience.

Originally Posted by speedjunkie

I did some research and it seems the Bosch check valve is the part bolted into the outlet and you use a banjo fitting on it, but I'm not sure if that's the same thing I was thinking of. I was just concerned with hurting the fuel pumps if there was too much backpressure, but maybe I'm not understanding what the check valve is for lol. If it won't hurt the pumps, I will just put a 12mm to -6 fitting in there and take out what Bosch put in there.

Pretty sure that's exactly what I did when I ran the 044

Originally Posted by speedjunkie

I was looking at the Stealth 340s but it seemed like they weren't as reliable as the 044 after reading some reviews.

OK thanks, I'll check out the Aeromotive line.

I've been running it for a few years now with no problem... I've never heard of one failing but I'm sure they do.. We never had a problem with FuelLab pumps until we did... and tragic it was...

Originally Posted by speedjunkie

Wow. Yeah you always go way further than what I'm planning LOL. Thanks!

Yeah... I tend to do that... my old tank was rusted from the inside.. I had that cleaned and epoxy coated... that lasted for like a decade until they upped the ethanol content and the epoxy started melting... that shit cost me an engine. Decided it was cheaper and better to build the surge tank rather than spend the money on a new/used tank...

[speedjunkie]

This is what Charles said...

Eric,
*
I personally use 14g wire inside the pump assemblies. It might be able to handle larger but I don’t see much point.
*
Up to the hanger perhaps go a little larger. Most RX7s seem to have the battery in the hatch, making it really easy to wire up. Use the stock fuel pump power and ground to activate a relay for your new pumps. Or perhaps use stock wiring for one pump, and splice off that wiring to trigger a relay for the secondary pump if you want it on full time. But if you have any programmable outputs, I would trigger the secondary pump around 2psi of boost.
*
Note that since the connectors only have 6 terminal positions, that if you want to keep the fuel thermistor (which I believe the rx7 uses for the low level warning light), you have to sensor ground through the chassis of the pump housing. Anodizing blocks electrical conductivity so to use the chassis you have to make a path for the electricity by strategically removing some anodizing under hardware. We did this in our RX7 and ran a small ground strap from one of the 8 mounting bolts

[speedjunkie]

Originally Posted by TitaniumTT

Oh really? Do you have a link to anything about what Paul is up to now?

I do not have a link, and so far I haven't found anything online. The only thing I've seen was on facebook, Aaron Parker pointed it out to me. I sent Paul a message about it a while back, asking him when he thought they might be available to the public, but I haven't heard anything back yet.

Originally Posted by TitaniumTT

Ah, Ok... yeah... Yordan wired one of those in at the shop, I don't remember what size wire he ended up using.

Originally Posted by TitaniumTT

It would nice if the pins could handle 14ga wire and north of 15A....

Well, I guess I'll probably use 14ga, or maybe 12ga even, but probably 14. As long as that is big enough, I don't see the need to go any larger.

Originally Posted by TitaniumTT

Yeah, I don't know what to do if the pins won't carry enough current. I suppose you could add another bulkhead connector.

Yes, I get the wire from Joe.

I thought about just doing one 044 and modifying the stock hanger with an aftermarket connector

http://www.racetronix.biz/itemdesc.a...WS-001&eq=&Tp=

but I was worried it might not seal, and I decided on two pumps anyway, so I went for the CJM hanger.

OK I'm going to email them or call and ask for Joe and get some 14ga submersible and 12ga or 10ga for the outside.

Originally Posted by TitaniumTT

Any connector will work.... It's the heatshrink that is going to be a pain. Joe may have something that will work. I still have a foot or so of Viton heatshrink kicking around.

What about the connectors that have heat shrink built onto it, that way you can shrink it on the end when you're finished? I figured the metal of the connector would be fine, I just wasn't sure about the plastic on the connectors, that's what I meant. Wanna sell that Viton heat shrink? lol

Originally Posted by TitaniumTT

OMG... it is such a PITA, I've done it a few times now... it keeps getting easier but it is still such an aggravating adventure in testing patience.

The things we do for our cars, right?

Originally Posted by TitaniumTT

Pretty sure that's exactly what I did when I ran the 044

Ok cool. As long as the pumps will be fine, I'll do it that way and skip an external check valve. I'm also thinking about getting an inline fuel filter with a reusable/cleanable element and ditching the stock filter.

Originally Posted by TitaniumTT

I've been running it for a few years now with no problem... I've never heard of one failing but I'm sure they do.. We never had a problem with FuelLab pumps until we did... and tragic it was...

OK maybe I'll ditch these Bosch's and get a couple Stealths haha. I know it's going to be a PITA to install the Bosch pumps with the surge tank, even moreso than it is installing them on their own, but I figured once it's in there I shouldn't have to worry about it for a while.

Originally Posted by TitaniumTT

Yeah... I tend to do that... my old tank was rusted from the inside.. I had that cleaned and epoxy coated... that lasted for like a decade until they upped the ethanol content and the epoxy started melting... that shit cost me an engine. Decided it was cheaper and better to build the surge tank rather than spend the money on a new/used tank...

Well that's a pretty good reason lol. I'd have done the same thing.

[elwood4ever]

Not sure how far you've progressed with your upgrade, but here's an option that I think would satisfy your concerns. It puts a real surge tank in the fuel tank and puts the pressure pump(s) outside the tank. The advantage is that you can easily run whatever gauge wire you need to the pressure pump(s). You can also add a 2nd pressure pump without needing to drop the tank --> http://coachmanperformance.com/uploa...5_-_140302.pdf

[speedjunkie]

Damn that's awesome! It looks way easier to install than what I'm about to do lol. My only concern is if the fuel sloshes away from the first pump, then it kinda defeats the purpose. But I guess by that time the tank will be full anyway from fuel it pumped through before. And I just noticed that the return line dumps into it also. I'm kinda thinking about trying to modify my current setup now, I have an idea.

[speedjunkie]

Ok I'm still working on this, still trying to decide what to do as far as a surge tank. I was planning on using dual Bosch 044s and the HPP tank, but it's a PITA to install. So I thought about going with smaller pumps and picked up some Aeromotive Stealths and thought about building a drop-in tank around it, similar to the Coachman tank, but have both pumps inside and check valves along the bottom. I've also thought about getting a Hyperion cover if I can find one, or using one of the stock later series covers that Hyperion used to make his, and make my own with that to fit either the Bosch pumps (which might take up too much room) or the Aeromotive pumps, and put check valves in the bottom of the stock surge box, along with hooking the return fuel line to it, and just seal it up as good as possible. Still trying to decide.

While trying to wire up the relays using the writeup I linked to in the first post, I had a couple ideas about changes so far.

I was wondering if it would be OK to use circuit breakers like these instead of fuses? I can't see why it wouldn't, but maybe there's something I'm not thinking about.

http://www.amazon.com/QUALITY-30A-50.../dp/B00DOGS0OU

Also, I picked up the same type of relays and connectors that he used, but the ones I got seemed really cheap and the connectors were hard to press on and get off, so I got these Hella relays and connectors to use instead since they seemed to be higher quality...

http://www.amazon.com/HELLA-00779430...ds=hella+relay
http://www.amazon.com/HELLA-H8470900...xgy_auto_img_y

...the only problem is that the back side of the connector doesn't really allow for removing one of the wires to solder in the extra wire. Is there another way I can wire it to achieve the same results? I was planning on splicing it but I'm a little confused on this. I've never been a fan of wiring and schematics or diagrams. Any help would be appreciated. Oh, and to be clear, I'm trying to wire them together according to the first iteration, because I don't yet have pressure sensors to wire in, but I think that would be a better idea than monitoring a loss of power to the pumps.