Roller Rotary

sickofpistons · 01-10-2011, 11:18 PM

Could anyone please explain any pros or cons to this idea ? ? ? ?

XN0035.jpg

vex · 01-10-2011, 11:27 PM

Why bother using them in the first place?

low compression · 01-10-2011, 11:33 PM

Im not an expert on bearing technology, but im not sure a bearing of that kind can handle the load against it as well. If it was a good idea im sure the small block chevy would of had a crank bearing like this a long time ago. Only reason i meantion a s.b.c crank is because we all know that engine gets all the minds in the world wanting to better it.

vex · 01-10-2011, 11:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by low compression

Im not an expert on bearing technology, but im not sure a bearing of that kind can handle the load against it as well. If it was a good idea im sure the small block chevy would of had a crank bearing like this a long time ago. Only reason i meantion a s.b.c crank is because we all know that engine gets all the minds in the world wanting to better it.

I don't think that's correct. Racing teams look to do this for removing friction, however using such bearings causes another issue: Survivability. This is an interesting read: Link

If it goes, what's to stop it from having the needle bearings clogging the oil passages? Where as compared to a regular journal bearing, if it fails, what's going to clog the oil passages?

***TitaniumTT*** · 01-10-2011, 11:50 PM

Where is that from? Website, links, more infor..... is that from a 16X? Seems pretty wide to me.

RETed · 01-11-2011, 04:11 AM

Less friction = more efficient engine
More efficient engine = more power using less fuel

Or course, the downside is that needle bearings are less reliable versus journal bearings.
I'd imagine service interval is a lot shorter for these needle bearings versus journal bearings.
If you're building a "race engine", this is not going to matter.

-Ted

NoDOHC · 01-11-2011, 07:47 AM

The big advantage to roller bearings is that they do not suffer accelerated wear for short periods of non-lubrication (if they get hot, it is a different story). This is good for starting (no oil pressure). The biggest problem with them is as stated above, there are more wear parts than just the oil film. Thus changing the oil does not completely replace the wear items in the bearing. The journal bearing is truly awesome for longevity under high loads and high speeds.

The picture that is shown is from a small air-cooled rotary that has no pressurized lubrication system (mixed oil in the gas). This is why the roller (or needle) bearing is required.

C. Ludwig · 01-11-2011, 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by low compression

If it was a good idea im sure the small block chevy would of had a crank bearing like this a long time ago.

They are. Needle bearings for cams and crank shafts are common place in high end circle track engines.

sickofpistons · 01-11-2011, 11:27 AM

I only googled roller ratary in images and came across it. It was a link to ausrotary.com.

sickofpistons · 01-11-2011, 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by low compression

Im not an expert on bearing technology, but im not sure a bearing of that kind can handle the load against it as well. If it was a good idea im sure the small block chevy would of had a crank bearing like this a long time ago. Only reason i meantion a s.b.c crank is because we all know that engine gets all the minds in the world wanting to better it.

The reason they didnt have one for the S.B.C or any other piston motor was because they couldnt hold oil pressure because they were a two piece design. They have them now in high end sports cars like the {bugati} i geuss is how its said? I think this needle bearing design would increase response and horsepower do to less friction. Its like hydraulic cam vs roller cam. If there was a way to machine these bearings for the 13b, would you have to mill down the e-shaft or bore the rotors and stationary gears?

sickofpistons · 01-11-2011, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RETed

Less friction = more efficient engine
More efficient engine = more power using less fuel

Or course, the downside is that needle bearings are less reliable versus journal bearings.
I'd imagine service interval is a lot shorter for these needle bearings versus journal bearings.
If you're building a "race engine", this is not going to matter.

-Ted

What would make the needle bearing less reliable vs journal?
Thanks.

C. Ludwig · 01-11-2011, 01:57 PM

Needle cam bearing in a V8.

j_tso · 01-11-2011, 05:38 PM

That look very much like a rotor from Woelfe Engineering's Aixro rotary kart engine.
http://www.woelfle-engineering.com/

It's a 294cc single rotor engine that gets about 40hp. The housing is water cooled and the rotor and bearing are cooled by the air/fuel/oil mixture, like NoDOHC said.
Here's an illustration from K. Yamamoto's Rotary Engine book:

***TitaniumTT*** · 01-11-2011, 07:22 PM

40 hp???? I think thaty would work well on my riding mower

RETed · 01-12-2011, 12:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sickofpistons

What would make the needle bearing less reliable vs journal?

It's inherent to the design...
Less parts = better reliability
This is why journal bearings are used in the most inaccessible locations.

Anyone who has lost a pilot bearing on their RX-7's knows what I mean...

-Ted

01-10-2011, 11:18 PM	#1
sickofpistons Rotary Fan in Training Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Jackson, TN Posts: 72 Rep Power: 0	Roller Rotary Could anyone please explain any pros or cons to this idea ? ? ? ? XN0035.jpg

01-10-2011, 11:27 PM	#2
vex RCC Loves Me Not You Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Influx. Posts: 2,113 Rep Power: 19	Why bother using them in the first place? __________________ The Official FC Radiator Thread My Project Thread: Cerberus CCVT Virginia Rotary Group

01-10-2011, 11:50 PM	#5
*TitaniumTT* Test Whore - Admin Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Right Behind you son Posts: 4,581 Rep Power: 10	Where is that from? Website, links, more infor..... is that from a 16X? Seems pretty wide to me. __________________ -The Angry Stig- DGRR 2009, 2011, 2012 & 2013 - Best FC DEALS GAP!! WOOHOOOO!!!!! 2015 Audi S4 - Samantha - Zero Brap S4 2004 RX8 - Jocelyn - 196rwhp, 19mpg fuel to noise converter 2000 Jeep Cherokee Sport - Wifey mobile - Now with 2.5" OME lift and 30" BFG AT KO's! So it begins 1998 Jeep Cherokee - 5 spd, 4" lift, 33" BFG's - Rotary Tow Vehicle 1988 'Vert - In progress 1988 FC Coupe - Gretchen -The attention whore BEAST! I'm a sick individual, what's wrong with you? I'm pure Evil I'm still insane, in the best possible way. I think Brian's idea of romance is using lube. Your rage caused the meteor strike in Russia. The Antichrist would be proud of his minion. You win with your thread. Most everything It's a truck with a steel gate on the back. Just a statement of fact Motec M820, AIM dash, ported 13B-RE Cosmo, 6-spd trans, 4.3 Torsen, custom twin wg fully divided mani, Custom 4" split into 2x 3" exhaust, Custom HMIC, Custom custom custom custom I like to welder stuff.... No Bolt-ons allowed. Dyno'ed @ Speed1 Tuned by me - 405rwhp on WG.... WM50 cuming soon. *-Angry Motherfcker Mode ENGAGED-**

01-11-2011, 07:47 AM	#7
NoDOHC The quest for more torque Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Sheboygan, Wisconsin Posts: 855 Rep Power: 17	The big advantage to roller bearings is that they do not suffer accelerated wear for short periods of non-lubrication (if they get hot, it is a different story). This is good for starting (no oil pressure). The biggest problem with them is as stated above, there are more wear parts than just the oil film. Thus changing the oil does not completely replace the wear items in the bearing. The journal bearing is truly awesome for longevity under high loads and high speeds. The picture that is shown is from a small air-cooled rotary that has no pressurized lubrication system (mixed oil in the gas). This is why the roller (or needle) bearing is required. __________________ 1986 GXL ('87 4-port NA - Haltech E8, LS2 Coils. Defined Autoworks Headers, Dual 2.5" Exhaust (Dual Superflow, dBX mufflers) 1991 Coupe (KYB AGX Shocks, Eibach lowering springs, RB exhaust, Stock and Automatic) Last edited by NoDOHC; 01-11-2011 at 07:49 AM.

01-11-2011, 01:57 PM	#12
C. Ludwig Rotary Masochist Join Date: May 2008 Location: Floyds Knobs, IN Posts: 494 Rep Power: 18	Needle cam bearing in a V8. __________________ _______________________________________________ *One stop Haltech, AEM, Syvecs shopping. Installation and tuning.* http://www.lms-efi.com *Free support. Drop us an email.* chris@lms-efi.com 502-515-7482 Facebook @LMS-EFI

01-10-2011, 11:33 PM	#3
low compression The Newbie Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 25 Rep Power: 0	Im not an expert on bearing technology, but im not sure a bearing of that kind can handle the load against it as well. If it was a good idea im sure the small block chevy would of had a crank bearing like this a long time ago. Only reason i meantion a s.b.c crank is because we all know that engine gets all the minds in the world wanting to better it.

01-11-2011, 11:27 AM	#9
sickofpistons Rotary Fan in Training Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Jackson, TN Posts: 72 Rep Power: 0	I only googled roller ratary in images and came across it. It was a link to ausrotary.com.

01-11-2011, 05:38 PM	#13
j_tso Rotary Fan in Training Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 65 Rep Power: 18	That look very much like a rotor from Woelfe Engineering's Aixro rotary kart engine. http://www.woelfle-engineering.com/ It's a 294cc single rotor engine that gets about 40hp. The housing is water cooled and the rotor and bearing are cooled by the air/fuel/oil mixture, like NoDOHC said. Here's an illustration from K. Yamamoto's Rotary Engine book:

01-11-2011, 07:22 PM	#14
*TitaniumTT* Test Whore - Admin Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Right Behind you son Posts: 4,581 Rep Power: 10	40 hp???? I think thaty would work well on my riding mower __________________ -The Angry Stig- DGRR 2009, 2011, 2012 & 2013 - Best FC DEALS GAP!! WOOHOOOO!!!!! 2015 Audi S4 - Samantha - Zero Brap S4 2004 RX8 - Jocelyn - 196rwhp, 19mpg fuel to noise converter 2000 Jeep Cherokee Sport - Wifey mobile - Now with 2.5" OME lift and 30" BFG AT KO's! So it begins 1998 Jeep Cherokee - 5 spd, 4" lift, 33" BFG's - Rotary Tow Vehicle 1988 'Vert - In progress 1988 FC Coupe - Gretchen -The attention whore BEAST! I'm a sick individual, what's wrong with you? I'm pure Evil I'm still insane, in the best possible way. I think Brian's idea of romance is using lube. Your rage caused the meteor strike in Russia. The Antichrist would be proud of his minion. You win with your thread. Most everything It's a truck with a steel gate on the back. Just a statement of fact Motec M820, AIM dash, ported 13B-RE Cosmo, 6-spd trans, 4.3 Torsen, custom twin wg fully divided mani, Custom 4" split into 2x 3" exhaust, Custom HMIC, Custom custom custom custom I like to welder stuff.... No Bolt-ons allowed. Dyno'ed @ Speed1 Tuned by me - 405rwhp on WG.... WM50 cuming soon. *-Angry Motherfcker Mode ENGAGED-**