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Turbo manifold design
I'm looking at getting a new manifold made for a new turbo, and I was wondering what would be any benefits or drawbacks (or if it would even be possible) to mounting the turbo further back and down some, kind of like how the stock twins are, but obviously not RIGHT on the exhaust ports. I've heard long runners are better for response, but why? I would think the shortest, straightest runners possible would be better in that regard. I know putting it further back would put more heat by the ABS pump, so I'd probably put more shielding around that, and I also wonder if there would be any room for the downpipe to be mounted and angle down, but if it was lower it wouldn't have to angle as much anyway.
My main reason for asking is because I'm going to try out the new EFR 7670 and since the CHRA is longer than on a Garrett, it puts my compressor housing closer to my VMIC and then I'd have to use a smaller, more restrictive air filter and I don't want to do that. I also want to continue using an aluminum elbow off the compressor housing outlet, and in order for it to fit under the strut bar I'll have to move the turbo down a little probably. Right now I have an elbow welded onto my housing and I had them both cut a little shorter to fit under the strut bar, but I'd rather not cut down the new housing. I'm thinking of using a v-band to attach it, but then again I'd be modifying the housing, so I'm not sure on that yet either. I'd like to use an aluminum elbow either way though. If I was home with my car and could just look and take measurements, or if I had ever made a manifold, I probably wouldn't even be asking about this haha. Just curious about this though. Any thoughts? |
Opinions are like arseholes so expect many replies :302:
I have made so many exhaust manifolds I care not to think back too much about it, I now only use on FD's the HKS T04Z manifold. This unit is "perfect" for a two rotor, the runners are ideal, the position is as well. They are very durable and you wont get anything better made by anyone. The most important bit is the power and the response, I use a turbocharger that will deliver over 750bhp @ the engine (I run it now at around ~580 to 600bhp @ 26.5psi), it clears everything with ease and this is with a "large" turbine. The before mentioned response is something I have never seen on ANY 13B street car or race car @ this high power level, I can stand on it form only 5000rpm turbine speed (not engine speed lol) (around 2500rpm) in 2nd gear and it literally launches down the road like a cannon ball being fired! it is "unbelievable" Don't place too much credit on BS dyno graphs showing you "spool to rpm" these things artificially load up the turbocharger and give it too much time to build up shaft speed and thus boost, what you are interested in is transient response all the stuff that happens from a closed throttle to your red line in under around the ~ 2 second range. A real mega set up car will accelerate so quickly in the gears (using stock Mazda gearbox with tires and final drive to do 210mph!) that you will almost find it pointless once you own one and drive it. This is what a quality manifold and turbo set up will deliver you, rather than the token 600rwhp dyno sheets some sprout out on the interwbz. A Garrett T04Z with appropriate rear housing and HKS exhaust manifold with a Tial V44 wategate and a minimum 1.3 bar spring in it and you are on the way to a sweet combination, all you need then is a decent motor, a good engine calibration, and a decent electronic boost control too. Here is a pic of how my turbo sits, I run a T04Z based turbo (modified by me) and a HKS manifold, 3.5" exhaust made by me and all heat shielded and using the factory carbon air box. http://img42.imageshack.us/img42/172...815donmega.jpg Some performance figures O.K. Remember pump petrol/gasoline here only ! ***OFFICIAL VBOX test results*** 90kmh-140kmh = 2.26 seconds! 100kmh-150kmh = 2.39 seoconds! 100kmh-200kmh = 6.25 seconds! Still on old tires, and showing about 24psi boost on the VBOX, and ~330rwkw VBOX POWER Tested at 1320kg run weight and 25 deg C ambient day, still doing boost learning procedure so there is a bit more in at this level and fuel mixture set rich to be on safe side. Fact V's Fiction Will put up some VBOX graphs when I get them off the lap dancer top Here is the graph of the 2.26 second 90-140 test :) this car has a *massive* power band, not normally seen on genuine 13B road cars of this level of performance and speed!@ the word "response" does not do it justice! It builds one bar of boost at around 3400rpm in a transient test, and near its maximum boost setting well before 4600rpm and it does it even in the low gears which only take a second or two for 8000rpm, its fantastic..... best road car set up ever !@ http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/1341/226secvbox.jpg |
To good no words to express it , just to good
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Here is some other pic's of how its shit is tucked away, bit like an Asian lady boy :Angel_anim: http://img816.imageshack.us/img816/2...g2594spdon.jpg http://img717.imageshack.us/img717/3...4cdisystem.jpg http://img832.imageshack.us/img832/4...7cdisystem.jpg V's a stock SP RX7 and how they accelerated with 276bhp motor ;) I have well over double the power at all rpm ranges covering 4k to 8+k...... with about 10 times the turbo reliability over the "twins" LOL (hint look at 110kmh to 140kmh 3rd gear accel time 3.72 seconds V's 1.44 seconds !!!!) same car, same weights, same stock 13B-REW engine block!, same intercooler, same air box, only difference is turbo set up, tuning...... you can turn a stock car into a supercar beater :) http://www.ausrotary.com/images/refe...or/motor9e.jpg |
LOL. Well thanks for the input, but where I'm deployed to right now, I can't see any pics on imageshack, so I can't see anything but the last pic of the magazine article LOL. I've seen your pics before though and I love your setup.
Also, I'm not selling my turbo (that I just bought) and I'm keeping the engine I have, unless it blows or something. I may have to rebuilt it already, but that's only if I determine that it's the engine burning oil and not the turbo. I can't see the HKS manifold and I haven't even seen my new turbo yet because I'm not home, so I have no idea if they would work together. I'm trying to get the manifold made with 321 stainless, and the main thing I was getting at with all this was if anyone could see a problem with moving the turbo back and down. Also, if there were any benefits or drawbacks to doing this, but I know what you're saying about opinions lol. I wondered if it might raise some sort of debate about response. I guess we'll see. Oh, I'm also planning on running two wastegates, one off each runner, probably around 38mm. The turbo supposedly flows 65lbs and the two wg should cover me I figure. I miss the responsiveness of the stock twins, so I'm going more for quick spool rather than high hp. Oh, and I'm not planning on even putting this on a dyno, so I wouldn't know the HP numbers anyway. Every time that car is on a dyno something tragic happens. I lost oil seals in a brand new turbo one time and an engine another, and possibly a brand new (rebuilt) engine again. The turbo oil seals was my fault haha. The first engine maybe my fault, the last one definitely not (if it is in fact bad). I'm also using the J-spec tranny, so my gearing so far hasn't allowed me to reach anything even close to 210 haha. Actually I don't think I've even tried to reach that haha. |
I commissioned one exhaust manifold from some place once made from 321 stainless, was made to fit HKSGT2 60mm gate and had egt's welded in etc, it was a nice piece short runner like the pics you cant see lol. (but you know what it looks like already) ....... the thing with 321 when you weld it also with 321 filler is its weld pool is "dirty" and the welds sort of come out just like when you use too much heat on 304L if you know what I mean? anyway get it made from 321 and it will last you about 20 engine and turbo oil seals :)
I tried the long header crap about 10 years ago. Many many people copied me,a and it in short if a con job on rotaries. it just does not work and you have way too many negatives that offset any type of gains associated with running what I call "Horse Cock Manifolds". My "opinion" is keep it short, keep it divided, keep it direct into the turbo, this will yield massive response, most energy utilization, lowest turbine inlet pressure, most power, any heat losses you have always mean you need to make up the other two of the three things that drive the compressor wheel, FLOW, PRESSURE, HEAT.... Loose any one of these and the other needs to go up to keep the energy equation balanced. Good luck with it BTW :302: |
Question to rice racing:I have read that the outlet from the waste gate to the exhaust needs to be at least 18 inches long . What is your opinion on that?
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Well I read that 321 holds up to heat better than other SS, that's why I wanted it. Checking out Phil's 20B thread and seeing the pics of the work Walker has done lets me know how it CAN look, if done by the right person haha. And if it's ugly, I'll just get it ceramic coated LOL. It would be nice if it's beautiful too, but I'm more concerned with it holding up over time (which I'm assuming you're saying it will with "and it will last you about 20 engine and turbo oil seals").
Alright, so using long runners isn't actually better then? I figured as short as possible would be better. I'd love to just make two little runners, maybe only a few inches long if possible, equal length and straight up out of the engine, but I'm not sure if the turbo will be able to squeeze down between there. I like your recommendations though...short, divided (was definitely going to get twin scroll, no question there), and try to keep it direct. Shit, I just thought of something though. If I push it lower and further back, I can say goodbye to good oil drainage. ARGH!!! Longer hoses for coolant (no big deal there) but oil drainage will be a problem. Shit. Anyway, here are some pics of my "precious"... http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f9...27568710_n.jpg http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f9...74719582_n.jpg http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f9...95549489_n.jpg http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f9...72696853_n.jpg http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f9...60377194_n.jpg http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f9...71471462_n.jpg http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f9...56751817_n.jpg http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f9...99911783_n.jpg http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f9...84429716_n.jpg http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f9...26068749_n.jpg It's been at the house for a while, but my roommate just sent me some pics since I'm wondering what the size of this thing is. I thought the CHRA being longer would have changed a lot, but it looks not too much longer than a Garrett. |
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I don't want to bore people with my technical shit BDC HC style but you can see the pressure build up in the exhaust as the waste gate is cycling to build up the boost to a new higher target (so the high pressure turbine inlet pressure does obviously effect the Turbine outlet pressure in those conditions) Ideal would be to vent the waste gate on its own for mega powered set up's, but I do believe that a good balance of exhaust pressure (turbine outlet pressure) to (intake manifold pressure) actually improves the engine power band. If its way lower it will give you more top end but at the expense of mid range power/response. This seems to have an effect even on stock ported rotaries. I have a nice detailed picture of the 2lt 145 inches of mercury boosted 3SGTE motor in Millen's Pikes Peak Racer and that thing at 950bhp does not have the WG 18 inches down stream (it does go right back into the exhaust outlet shortly after the turbine exit), so go figure, maybe he should have read the internet more :tongue1: |
Fuck that is a nice looking turbo!
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This turbo like the sierra sierra cunts run would be nice to use, it looks good too. > read more here > http://www.importtuner.com/features/...x/viewall.html
EFR 9180 ~900bhp @ 2.4 bar boost pressure http://image.importtuner.com/f/34648...evo+engine.jpg |
The long to short runner thing is a classic and it WILL do your head in LOL.
One of the classic examples of a horse cock manifold is to look up the old TWINS TURBO converted Red Time Attack FD3S, running massive horse cock exhaust manifold with BW turbo and PENI GROW on steroids 5" dump pipe! and 4" exhaust !!!! you can actually see video of it doing ~480rwhp on the interwebz on a dynapack machine when set to ~20psi boost pressure. The amount of fab work and shit on that engine bay set up is homo in the extreme for very little return in performance. You can see at least two other examples of short manifold cars running same or less boost and dyno'd on the exact same dyno types returning more power and with the same power band if not actually better. All around 500rwhubhp @ 1.3 bar boost pressure. |
Rice I have talked to you before about a t3t4 or t4 .I'm gonna stay with the t4 like you advised ,you also gave me some good info on how to get the turbo to spool faster ,my WG goes to atmosphere now ,if i run the WG outlet into the exhaust will it create better mid range for my street port ? Because it is fucking loud.
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100% you will get better mid range with it plumbed back in.
if you copy any of the good set ups pictured here (lol mine maybe hahah) then its not going to cost you "that much" top end HP honestly. if you look at the majority of 900bhp 2lt to 2.4lt 4cyl split pulse tuned turbine housing race cars (honestly fuck all difference to these and a 2 rotor in operation), be they Toyota, Ford, LOL Chev ECOTEC! they all have the WG plumbed back in and have minimal losses for power 3" to 3.5" turbine outlet exhausts is more than ample for up to 1100bhp output as shown by many OEM race teams too. I do have some great pics across all these platforms should get around to scanning some and posting them up. |
Ya don't think i will be putting pics on my walls :hurray:, but i do appreciate the good advice . Like I have said in the past I'm not a turbo guy (this is my first and not my last ),I'm a vintage rotary guy and the shop i work at only tunes spec rotary race cars ,so my info comes from books ,theory and as little forum talk as possible.(when pertaining to my car).
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The only thing I was ever concerned with as far as routing WG back into the exhaust was that it was MUCH quieter than not plumbing it HAHA. I didn't realize there was a science to that as well lol. I kinda regret that I won't be doing it still with this setup, because I'm trying to get quieter, but it's kind of a PITA with my current setup trying to line the WG up to both flanges and get them tightened down. I can only imagine the mess from TWO wastegates.
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I like their talk of turbo speed, not many cunts measure this, its how pro's talk and do things :biggthumpup:
I am near the end of my turbo's range running it at around 118,000rpm (comp map only goes to 120,000rpm) but fuck it I'll push it a bit beyond LOL, all these things are under rated for safety LOL :18: I rekon you can run the poofter to 140,000rpm not a problem. |
Yeah I like how it has a port for a speed sensor, but I'm not sure if I know enough about this stuff to need another gauge inside LOL. Of course, if a nearby tuner has the option to use it for tuning I'd do it, but in any case I just like that I could measure it if I need to at some point. I'd love to learn how to do my own tuning, but I don't know if that day will ever come haha. When I was doing research on this turbo I was reading about turbo speed and how it's used to tune, it's pretty interesting. I don't remember at all what it said right now, but I remember where to find it and I remember that I thought it was interesting at the time HAHA.
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If you can fit a shorty manifold that will flow nice it is definitely the best way to go. When I say flow nice I mean the bends have to be as gentle as possible, and absolutely no cheating of the entrance to the turbo manifold. In all honestly it doesn't make that much difference from long vs short, engine build quality will way out weigh it.
Check out this SWEET Rx-8 turbo manifold we pulled off a customer's car.. :) Curious to see how your EFR works out, I've got tons of guys asking me about doing those.. |
Yeah I'm really hoping to do as short and straight as possible, or at least gentle bends actually. What do you mean no cheating on the entrance? I know I'm just being finicky here, but anything that will help with faster spool is what I'm after.
That's an interesting manifold, I've never seen one done like that before. I don't remember, does the RX-8 exhaust come out of the irons too instead of the housings? Is that why there are 3 ports on there? Yeah I'm curious too haha. Unfortunately I won't be able to provide any dyno results since I don't dare get on another one HAHA. All I'll be able to do is give a report on what the butt dyno tells me, how fast it spools and all that. Also, I'll be at a disadvantage due to the 6000' altitude as well, but I do plan on taking this to DGRR this year (assuming I can get it all done in time), so that should give me a better idea of what it will do near sea level. Otherwise I guess I'll run the current turbo out there. Either way, I'm sure I'll be reporting whether I'm happy or not haha. MAYBE I'll get on the dyno just to do a couple pulls, but no tuning, that's when tragedy strikes. I've been fairly lucky enough with just dyno pulls though. |
I approve of this thread.
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And what knowledge and experience do you have to approve of anything?
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As Peter pointed out, take a look at the Twins Turbo manifold. Beautifully constructed, out side the box thinking, not all that impressive numbers. As for your tuning experiences.... get a better dyno guy! What's breaking and what boost, timing, AFR's etc etc etc... |
watch and learn fact v's fiction
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kyJW...eature=related
^ These cunts know a thing or two about head jobs. 12minutes into this EPIC VIDEO (History lesson) BMW powered Benetton = 1350bhp and ~650kg actually has more power than the official media quoted figures, watch the video and be prepared to shit your panties! Actual power is around 1400+bhp as BMW could never measure the power properly as their dyno stopped at 1400!!! 25 years ago 1.5lt engine STOCK ENGINE BLOCK 10,500rpm 102 oct petrol water injection on the Renault and Ferrari water sprays on intercoolers 5.5bar absolute pressures NO THE VIDEO IS NOT IN FAST FORWARD!!!! :) watch and learn! |
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It actually wasn't the tuner's fault in either case, it was just one of those things. Well, the first turbo I lost was my fault because I didn't put a restrictor in the oil line (didn't know I had to back then haha) and it blew the oil seals out on the first run, so that was my fault. Then when I lost my engine last Jan, I think it was going to go at any moment anyway, it was time to give up the ghost and it just so happened to be on the dyno. Actually that one was due to the rear bearing, so I'm thinking it might have been a blockage in the e-shaft or something and not providing oil, not sure. This time I don't know what the hell happened, but it hadn't even made it to the dyno yet when it started burning oil, during break in! But I'm still not 100% sure it's the engine just yet. But when I did get it on the dyno, that guy didn't know his ass from his elbow and changed the tune/timing so much that it killed it and wouldn't start again unless we popped the clutch with the truck pulling it. Once I changed the timing it would start again, but still acts weird, almost like it's flooding every time. And I'm sure as shit not going back to that place haha. And he supposedly used to have an FD and tunes a lot of them, that's doubtful. He sure isn't tuning mine anymore. Not only that, I spent 3 hours the night prior setting up my TB for a perfect idle, and then this dipshit started messing with it and screwed it up. But each of these times have been at different tuners anyway. |
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Peter, what do you think is the cause of better midrange torque with plumbed wastegate? This thing shocked me, as it shouldn't enhance volumetric efficiency and hence airflow per cycle. It must be something related to wastegate valve position and how far its opened vs. target boost? I´m lost in this:o15::lol: |
Think scavenging
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I have not much of an idea as to why it makes more power, except that there is some complex interactions between the intake and exhaust as TTT suggests. For the street its a nice side benefit, its way WAY to fucking loud to have any turbo 13B that does not have at least two big mufflers and a WG going through the main exhaust system. My car is very loud when its on 30psi boost! its just a pure function of the power being made, the more boost I have run the more loud it is, when I trialed it with just one muffler it was totally abhorrent and not usable on the road in any way shape of form.... anyway I know some don't care about noise etc, but to me to stay undercover it is important :) |
^I've been trying to go the more undercover route. Right now I have a Magnaflow resonated midpipe and the WG is routed back into the exhaust. But with the dual WG, I won't be doing that anymore, so I guess it's back to loud as shit haha. Maybe I'll take the resonated MP out too, I kinda miss the loud anyway, although I'm sure my neighbors don't.
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IC design/sizing
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Ok, another thing I want to look at. Maybe I should make this a new thread, but whatever.
I want to build a new IC for my VMIC setup. I feel the one I have now may not be the best design, but I don't really know enough to be sure about that haha. I have a Rotary Extreme Monster VMIC kit. The core is 18X11X4.5, but what concerns me the most is the end tank design. There is no smooth flow to it, it's just pretty choppy, if that makes sense. The first pic with the black IC is my current setup. I'd like to do something similar to the second pic, and/or maybe the third/fourth pic. I'd also like to put some guides inside to make sure the air flows to all parts of the core instead of just through the middle. I know I don't want air to move too fast through the IC though or it makes use of an IC kinda pointless. Sean from A-Spec suggested using 3" inlet and 2.75" outlet to offset that. I'm also looking into IC core size, and I'm not really sure what to get. I have an idea of what CFM to look for, somewhere around 740 at 10psi or 1300 at 15psi, etc, but this is somewhat based on my current turbo. Is there a way to use lbs/min (that the turbo is capable of) to get an idea of what CFM to look for? I'm thinking about going to a little bit shorter length, like 14", and keeping the 4.5" thickness and maybe going with 10" to get close to 740CFM (at 10psi, according to Bell Intercoolers which is where I've been looking). Or should I stick with 11" and go for closer to 800CFM? I was also looking at maybe stepping down to a 3.5" thickness, but Sean was saying the length of the IC will affect pressure drop more than thickness, which is one reason I'm thinking about stepping down to 14". I'm not too educated on all this flow business haha. http://www.bellintercoolers.com/_pages/coreAirCore.html http://www.bellintercoolers.com/_pages/aachart450.html |
speedjunkie- what size manifold piping are you going to use to make your manifold?
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No issues with the smaller IC running water? |
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In more normal boost settings at around 27psi its always under 45 deg C :coolgleamA: I run water injection and an intercooler spray system :willy_nilly: it is unbelievable, lets me keep the historical aspect of my car (stock parts) but still have almost 700bhp from the engine if I choose to do so :coolgleamA: |
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Flow and angles n shit makes less difference when you are running higher and higher pressure ratio's, which lets face it you have to on any rotary due to its small capacity be it 2,3 or 4 rotors compared to what you have to work with in any decent reciprocating engine. Same for pipe work sizes etc. IMHO I use the stock std 2.75" pipes in my rig and I say again make so much power that the car is almost un enjoyable as you just cant rev it out in 3rd gear or what ever cause you are just doing over 100mph in less than 2 seconds. < This fact is hard to convey to people who have not had a really fast car yet. Its so easy to get almost 600bhp out of a 13B its not funny and when you are there and you have it in a car of 2800lb or so then all this talk of intercoolers and manifolds and turbos A/R's etc will all seem academic to you............ you will know it when it happens :) What ever all of you decide you WILL need water injection to make it durable *long term* like I have proven with RICESP, without it you can measure the life in minutes LOL |
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Off topic but have you played with any kind of traction control? |
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I developed 13B specific cut patterns for RL and I sell the maps to people who buy systems off them for use on rotaries :) I have tested it at length and my system/programming is proven many rotary users and literally covered hundreds of thousadns of killometers :) ulike other BIG NAME ECU suppliers mine actually works and will not fuck your engine :) in true F1 style fuel cut (only way to do TC properly@!) some other makers have such issues with TC on rotaries that they fuck around with other inferior methods like electronic throttles LOL or spark cutting etc etc. RICESP would be totally useless without TC :smash: If you look on my web site I have one video where I do some testing at my local air port on about 18psi boost and there are patches of wet tarmac, you can hear the TC operating in 1st and 2nd gear. I have other video's where I am driving some cunts FD that I fitted my TC too and you can hear it working around the track in the slow 2nd gear corners, it sounds just like an F1 car :) *old F1 car lol*. When I first started using RL TC I did about 30,000km testing on the first unit, I pulled down the engien to check eveything and the wear was nothing more than a car running without it fitted............. Its the best thing ever for a 2WD high powered car. http://www.riceracing.com.au/rides/S...II_SpiritR.htm http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CqTMY...layer_embedded ^ unbeaten to this day for a true genuine road FD on twin turbo's on hard compound road tires, I set a lap record with full fuel tank too lol ........ lots of people have tried to beat it with soft compound tires and gutted FD's non have ever got close. And I was not even trying too hard, not too bad for a "hack driver" imagine if I was racing for plastic trophys every weekend LOL. |
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Anyway, I'd like to use a size similar to the pic I posted on the previous page, something large enough that I don't have to worry about it being restrictive. I'm not sure what sizes are offered in 321 though. I know this is more than what you asked, I'm just excited about it haha. Quote:
It's funny you mention all that, because I'm not so much looking for high HP, my main goal here is the quickest response I can get. What I'd love is to have the response of the stock twins but in a single turbo setup. I know that's pretty impossible, but if I can get at least somewhat close I'll be happy. If I get high HP out of it, that's cool. Honestly though, the altitude where I live robs us by 27% on a boosted car (I don't know how much on an NA but I can't even imagine), so the higher HP the better, but it's not my main concern. When I go back home to closer to sea level I can really tell how much my car is actually putting out. It's quite a difference, and it's WAY fun haha. Really though, I'm not sure if any of my setups have put out what they were supposed to, and I'm not sure if it's because of the altitude or what. I am already using the FJO water injection kit. It's injected about half way between the IC and the intake elbow, JUST past the BOV. I'd heard of people (well, mainly you haha) injecting at the turbo, but I was wondering how much, if any, got stuck in the IC and never made it to the engine. I also figured since mine is injected anyway and not just sprayed, I wouldn't need the turbo to atomize it so I could put it pretty much wherever, but I still wanted to put it just past the IC instead of in the elbow. I'm not using it for more HP though, I'm only using it for protection of the engine. I'm using windshield wiper fluid...it's already mixed the same every time, so I don't have to worry about mixing up ratios (which I probably would lol). I was using just distilled water at first but it got cold enough pre-winter that it froze and burst my pressure sensor, so I moved to wiper fluid. |
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Awesome, thanks! I'll check it out.
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