smoke possibilities?

[vex]

I have an odd problem and I no longer think it's the Oil Control rings in the engine.

I am producing smoke. It appears to be dark grayish smoke, and very well could be fuel though it doesn't smell like fuel (smells more like burnt rubber on occasion). It's very transparent until it gets piled up from idling at a traffic light. However there is no smoke during engine braking, acceleration, or regular driving. There appears to not be any smoke trail either while I'm driving too. The only problem is that when I'm stopped and idling I get smoke, the longer I idle the thicker it gets. When I accelerate I notice a slight blue tinge that wasn't there previously. I notice no decrease in fluids besides oil, which is decreasing rather quickly (1 qt per 1000 miles).

My theory for the oil and some of the smoke is that it is from the turbo, whether it's the oil drain or oil feed I do not know. I'm currently talking to Turbonetics about it and they tell me that I do not need an oil restrictor until I am at 80+PSI at WOT. Since I've never been at WOT I don't know if I really need one. But at slight cruise I do see over 60 possible as high as 75, but that is unknown.

On top of that this smoke only appears when I get up to temp. It is rare or never has occurred previously when I have been warming the engine. I have a vac leak and an exhaust leak that I will be hunting down this weekend but would like other suggestions for me to check while I'm in there.

[Rx-7fetish]

I have heard some bad things about those turbonetics turbos goin bad real quick from a guy at tunerfriends on his supra, his name is supradave if you wanna go try to talk to him. I would seriously check that turbo real good to make sure its stiill good. Ill try to find a link to the thread its kinda old so it might take a while.

[Tanj!]

If it was the oil seals in the turbo you would have smoke under acceleration too. Having said that have you had someone follow you to make sure you really aren't smoking under acceleration and off throttle moments? I ask because we regularly black flag people at the track for smoking while running that they never see or notice because it is dispersed so quickly at speed. Also unless it's just pouring out most drivers never know. I would also recommend that you do drive byes for your observer. It's much easy to spot smoke coming out when it's framed by the background and not the back of your car.

[vex]

If it was the oil seals in the turbo you would have smoke under acceleration too. Having said that have you had someone follow you to make sure you really aren't smoking under acceleration and off throttle moments? I ask because we regularly black flag people at the track for smoking while running that they never see or notice because it is dispersed so quickly at speed. Also unless it's just pouring out most drivers never know. I would also recommend that you do drive byes for your observer. It's much easy to spot smoke coming out when it's framed by the background and not the back of your car.

yes, i have had individuals follow me. They reported no smoke except when shifting or coming to a stop.

As for the turbo I have noticed oil on the intake lip of the turbo.

[TitaniumTT]

Sounds like your turbo is shot. What are you runing for an OPR? Why do you not know what your oil psi's are like?

[vex]

Sounds like your turbo is shot. What are you runing for an OPR? Why do you not know what your oil psi's are like?

Stock oil pressure gauge. I'm still waiting to hear back from turbonetics about this issue. I would find it highly unlikely that the turbo was killed within 1500 miles... but the possibility is there. I notice a few mm of shaft play orthogonal to the axis of rotation, but that's it (well.. besides the small amount of oil).

To top this off, wouldn't a dead turbo emit smoke at start up when the pressure reaches the same as when it emits ~30PSI. I think it has something to do with the turbo, but I don't think the turbo is DOA... could be wrong though.

[Fidelity101]

speaking of smoke, a little off topic, but when I seafoamed I figured out how to get my car to do smoke rings lol.

[My5ABaby]

speaking of smoke, a little off topic, but when I seafoamed I figured out how to get my car to do smoke rings lol.

A little off topic? :rofl:

[vex]

After driving home I'm wondering if some fluid isn't accumulated in my exhaust. For whatever reason Smoke does not increase out one pipe or the other when I cover the other up. Instead it appears to just build up in the single chamber until I uncover it at which point both chambers increase output of smoke. Rather pecuiliar.

Beyond that I have a few things I may try to remedy the problem... I just have to wait for the engine to cool down a little.

[vex]

Worked on the car today. I started it up and let it idle for over 30 minutes, revving it a little bit here and there and I look on the newly wet ground and see that there's quite a few droplets of oil. I found that peculiar and continued to do it until the droplets disappeared. During this process smoke became less and less prevalent during the process until eventually it was no longer being emitted at all. I came to the conclusion that the car is only having issues when it comes under load and as such what possibilities that it presents.

From what I can tell of this I can rule out the Oil Control rings, oil injectors, oil feed to the turbo. That leaves only the oil return line. Now if I understand correctly the operation of a turbo oil isn't really being spun to a foam until the car is under load. Since the return line isn't exactly a direct route to the oil pan I believe that the oil foam may be producing cells of air and climbing back up the oil return line. This is then getting backed up to the turbo where, since it has a different viscosity and able to leak through tighter crevices, is by its nature going other locations since the oil is pressurized.

I may be able to remedy the problems by installing hard lines into the NPT threads and making a 90* bend to the oil return port. Though i'm not sure if the cells will build there or return to regular oil viscosity and what not. The only other option would be to integrate an inspection window on the oil return line and see if the foam is actually able to return to the oil pan or if it's just climbing back up and causing my problem.

[RETed]

Why don't you take some pics and post them?
I think the old adage: "A picture is worth a thousand words," applies here.
Trying to understand what you're trying to say is making my head hurt.
A picture would makes things a lot easier to understand.

From what it sounds like...the oil drain location is improperly installed?


-Ted

[vex]

Why don't you take some pics and post them?
I think the old adage: "A picture is worth a thousand words," applies here.
Trying to understand what you're trying to say is making my head hurt.
A picture would makes things a lot easier to understand.

From what it sounds like...the oil drain location is improperly installed?


-Ted

Perhaps, though I'm fairly certain that the location of the oil drain isn't the issue in this. I've installed the oil drain on the rear of the oil pan, underneath the transmission. The oil drain from the turbo is off to the exhaust port side so the line I have to install comes from the turbo drain under the manifold and then arcs into the oil return port on the oil pan. Out of necessity I have had to install the port there.

I will work on getting a picture for you though it will have to wait until morning as my camera phone can not take good pictures at night.

[RETed]

If it's installed anywhere on the stock oil pan, it's already wrong.
The dump side of the oil drain needs to drain above the oil level.
Assume the oil level is going to be as high as the stock oil pan flange.
This is why the stock 13BT turbo drains into the front oil cover and not into the stock oil pan.
The oil draining off the turbo needs to have the least resistance going back into the oil supply / pan.
Check any of the turbo books - Corky Bell's Maximum Boost or Hugh McInnes Turbocharging (or any other turbo reference) - they will all tell you this.

If this is the case, you're getting oil backing up into the turbo CHRA and exiting either from the dynamic seal(?) in the compressor or the piston compression ring through the turbine.


-Ted

[vex]

If it's installed anywhere on the stock oil pan, it's already wrong.
The dump side of the oil drain needs to drain above the oil level.
Assume the oil level is going to be as high as the stock oil pan flange.
This is why the stock 13BT turbo drains into the front oil cover and not into the stock oil pan.
The oil draining off the turbo needs to have the least resistance going back into the oil supply / pan.
Check any of the turbo books - Corky Bell's Maximum Boost or Hugh McInnes Turbocharging (or any other turbo reference) - they will all tell you this.

If this is the case, you're getting oil backing up into the turbo CHRA and exiting either from the dynamic seal(?) in the compressor or the piston compression ring through the turbine.


-Ted

Which I understand and completely agree. The problem comes from me modifying the system already in place. In that respect I put it in the only location available to me. Is there any solution which I can put in place to remedy the problem besides replacement and subsequent disassembly of the front cover? Is there any benefit to installing a larger diameter chamber mid way through to the oil return port on the pan--I don't know if it would do anything, as I don't know what the oil needs to have it return to normal from the foam state?

I've noticed that the smoke is eliminated by ensuring that the oil return line is as straight as possible when it leaves the turbo. I'm thinking using a threaded pipe and installing it from the turbo flange down about 6-8in and then 90* back to the oil pan. My only concern is that the 90* bend would be too much for an easy transition for the foamed oil to return to the oil pan.

I'm open to other suggestions if anyone has any.

[RETed]

The only other spot that's kinda easily accessible would be the front oil cover.
I believe there is a "slant" on the side closest to the turbo.
That slant can be easily drilled and tapped (or welded).
Can you snake the oil drain line to the front?
I remember you saying it's easier to go toward the rear...

I don't know how your turbo exhaust manifold is designed, but you might be able to drill a hole in either the rotor housings or middle iron?
This has complications due to the fitting / pipe being so close to the hot turbo exhaust manifold though...

If you're going to try a sump, you'll need to pump the oil back into the supply -i.e. the oil pan.
This is not the best way as you're complicating the whole system, but sometimes it's a necessity.
Question is...how do you find a reliable pump that can handle hot oil?

Whatever the case, try to get the oil drain (from the turbo) to drop straight down first.
Try to stay away from bends right at the turbo.
Run the largest hose you can fit.
-10AN is minimum in my book, and I try and shoot for -12AN if possible.
Larger is better, but fittings get expensive!
Actually, stay away from AN fittings is possible...
Use / find flange / pipe like how the stock oil drain is.
This is the least restrictive - look at AN fittings *inside* and a lot of them neck down a lot!
Problem with this set-up is that you gotta use (soft) hose + clamps - heat destroys most types of (soft) hoses.

Good luck!


-Ted

[vex]

The only other spot that's kinda easily accessible would be the front oil cover.
I believe there is a "slant" on the side closest to the turbo.
That slant can be easily drilled and tapped (or welded).
Can you snake the oil drain line to the front?
I remember you saying it's easier to go toward the rear...

I don't know how your turbo exhaust manifold is designed, but you might be able to drill a hole in either the rotor housings or middle iron?
This has complications due to the fitting / pipe being so close to the hot turbo exhaust manifold though...

If you're going to try a sump, you'll need to pump the oil back into the supply -i.e. the oil pan.
This is not the best way as you're complicating the whole system, but sometimes it's a necessity.
Question is...how do you find a reliable pump that can handle hot oil?

Whatever the case, try to get the oil drain (from the turbo) to drop straight down first.
Try to stay away from bends right at the turbo.
Run the largest hose you can fit.
-10AN is minimum in my book, and I try and shoot for -12AN if possible.
Larger is better, but fittings get expensive!
Actually, stay away from AN fittings is possible...
Use / find flange / pipe like how the stock oil drain is.
This is the least restrictive - look at AN fittings *inside* and a lot of them neck down a lot!
Problem with this set-up is that you gotta use (soft) hose + clamps - heat destroys most types of (soft) hoses.

Good luck!


-Ted

Thanks Ted. I think my original plan is to get metal pipe with an NPT thread. Screw it in and go straight down for a few inches. Then a 45* to a soft hose adapter. Soft hose to the other adapter and run it onto another hard pipe into the oil pan.

If I still have problems I may just use this:
http://www.turbowerx.com/Scavenge_Pumps/Base-Model_Pump/Base-Model_Pump.html

If I still have problems with that set up I'll plug up the npt fitting on the oil pan, drill and tap into the oil cover. It's just so f'ing crowded up front.

It was raining today so I couldn't grab a picture of my engine bay to give you an idea.

[TitaniumTT]

IMNSHO the front cover is too thin to tap 1/2"NPT. Instead see if there is a perfectly flat 1.25" diameter spot and use a bulkhead fitting with some aluminum crush washers. My next option would be to weld a bung on. One more reason to get that TIG ;)

[vex]

Initial viewings seem to indicate that the 6in 1/2npt pipe to a 3/4 buffer to a 3/4 45* bend to a 3/4 buffer to a hose fitting have solved my smoke issues. It took me over an hour to install all the parts that cost me a whopping $6.00, but I had to remove my upper intake, the turbo itself and I found out that I can't rotate the cartridge/turbine housing like I should be able to. There's still a few things I need to fix, but all in all it's coming together.

If my problem stays fixed and I continue to not see any smoke I will not have to setup a scavenge system.

For a better understanding of this: I have replaced about 10in of soft line that continually rubbed up against the turbo manifold with a hard line to an oil accumulator which is still above the oil level. This in my mind should allow the oil ample space to return and run back to the oil pan. But like I said, I haven't noticed a problem with it *yet* and if I do, I have a back up plan I can initiate. Will check in the morning--just too tired now and apparently have developed an allergic reaction to something.