To turbo an N/A???

[89fc3s]

I just bought my second fc. It is a 89 GTU wit a reman motor (80k) intake headers and 3 inch exhaust. I want to turbo this car and was wondering about how much it would cost / what i need. i want a front mount and a larger than TII turbo. any help / parts would be greatly appreciated.

[FerociousP]

$2000

your intake manifold choices depend on you exhaust manifold setup. Do you want a hybrid turbo using the stock exh. mani or a whole new setup?? If you want turbo intake manifolds you will need a Japan2la custom ported t2 manifold because you are 6-port.

You will spend alot of money converting it to turbo because of all the accesories (sensors) needed. Make sure you are not better off going another route.

[FC_fan]

better to swap to a T2 block. you can pick up a decent long block for $800-$1000 mostly. T2 tranny's can be found for around $200 if you want that beefier tranny. you can use an N/A tranny too though. do some research before you decide. there is a good N/A turbo right up on another site (I'm not sure if I can mention it here:)). I personally would get a T2 block minus the manifolds and get the turbo/manifolds you want and do it that way. I just don't trust the N/A's under boost especially if you are going higher then stock T2. my 2 cents.

[RETed]

Oh noes...


-Ted

[WE3RX7]

IMHO its always been better to do a T2 swap.

However, VEX on this forum just completed his: http://rotarycarclub.com/rotary_forum/showthread.php?t=2914

I'm sure he'll chime in when he sees this thread.... but $2k sounds entirely too low for a nice reliable setup.

[Fidelity101]

if your boosting the NA I would just go ahead and convert it to E85 too.

[Caim]

better to swap to a T2 block. you can pick up a decent long block for $800-$1000 mostly. T2 tranny's can be found for around $200 if you want that beefier tranny. you can use an N/A tranny too though. do some research before you decide. there is a good N/A turbo right up on another site (I'm not sure if I can mention it here:)). I personally would get a T2 block minus the manifolds and get the turbo/manifolds you want and do it that way. I just don't trust the N/A's under boost especially if you are going higher then stock T2. my 2 cents.


This man speaks the truth. That is the best and most cost effective route.

[vex]

You're right WE3RX7... I will chime in... where to begin... this is going to be a long one.

Honestly your price range depends entirely on what your aims are. Or you can invert that and have your price range dictate what your aims are.

Briefly going over the bare minimums of what you'll need in general:

Turbo
Intercooler
Fuel Injectors
Fuel Pump
Coolant lines
Oil lines
Gauges
Charge Piping
Silicon/Rubber Couplers and clamps
Exhaust piping
Flanges
Nuts and bolts
EMS/ECU/Fuel Controller


Now that you have the basic list of what is required, decide right now what you want out of this car. Which leads me to tell you right now, how well do you know your car right now?

I promise you that if you do go ahead and do this you will not only know the car better, you will have an intimate knowledge of everything regarding the running of your car.

So lets start at the beginning. If you're buying everything new, none used, expect to pay a little over 10k for everything (and that's not even top of the line). Give yourself a cushion too of about 20% as a back up fund for odds and ends not accounted for, so the total price would be closer to 12k.

Now that number is a fairly good estimate if you're to buy everything new out of that list and just use it. Sure you can pony up the cash and get a semi bolt up application, but if you're really wanting to go custom and run a larger turbo here are things to consider:

Do you want to keep the 6PI? Do you want to keep any other functions of the engine? How many miles, and what are the seal conditions of the engine? Do you know if the engine has 3 piece or 2 piece apex seals? Do you know the compression numbers? Are there any problems what so ever with the engine systems? How's the radiator? What are your oil lines like?

Keep these questions in mind while I relate my thoughts on the subject.

my original plan was to just strap on a regular old, stock S4 turbo, but found a hybrid that would work for significantly cheaper. In the same lot I also picked up an intercooler. Total price $50 used.

I inspected the turbo and found stress fractures in the turbine housing. No play in the shaft, but it was rather hard to turn. So I sat on that turbo looking for better deals to come up.

Beginning of last summer I found the better deal. A friend of mine was selling his turbo below retail and market value. A Turbonetics inc. T60-1 F1-62 with an AR of .77 for $700. It's not everyday I am able to pick up a ceramic ball bearing turbo for a price like that so I jumped on it. To even sweeten the deal He threw in a blow off valve. I ended up buying a waste gate for about $150 or so more dollars.

Now I wanted stainless steel lines because quite frankly I was going to convert my fuel lines over to SS anyways and just make it all that much easier to get to and take off. This meant I had to get coolant lines for the turbo which Turbonetics sells. Almost 100 dollars later I have their universal water line kit, and their -4AN oil feed line.

Now I had to ensure a way to get oil to the turbo so I went with Racing beats oil adapter. Works great. So lets recap really quick. I've spent over 1000 dollars in turbo stuff alone and still haven't gotten the other parts necessary to support the added air coming into the engine.

Word of warning, the turbo I have is quoted as being good for 6-700hp, so if your goals aren't that high then there's probably no reason for you to get it.

[vex]

Now I needed a way to reject the heat from the additional turbo, so I went with a racing radiator from AFCO (which has been hashed out in another thread--see sig). The radiator ran me around 250 and is not a direct bolt on application. Custom work needed to be done. And while I was in there I went ahead and altered a lot of the front: Moved the oil cooler forward, made a mounting location for the intercooler, redid the hood latch anchor, etc.

Around this time I also noticed that my engine had let the rear casting go, so I decided to spend another 800 bucks getting new apex seals, and a new rear housing and rebuilding it. While it was apart I decided to also port it to actually be able to use more of the turbo's abilities. So another 70 bucks later I have a template and a few other odds and ends to port the engine.

so far the total is around 2k+/-. Now lets look at fuel: You'll need a higher capacity fuel pump, bigger injectors, and maybe some new fuel lines, and a rising rate FPR. Fuel pumps can be had off an FD for fairly inexpensive, if you buy new you spend a little more depending on capacity. Injectors can range from around 50 bucks for a pair, to 400 for a set. How much fuel you want to dump in is completely dependent on your needs and wants. I currently have 550/720 which should be okay for awhile. If or when I want more power I'll get bigger injectors, but I'll have to pay for it. Next add in the FPR and make sure it's a 1:1 if you're running gas. no sense in trying to flood out your engine. Expect to pay around 4-500 for just those three things. I went a little above and beyond to equalize pressure through each individual bank of injectors and went with a parallel fuel set up instead of series. This makes trouble shooting a lot easier. Expect to pay an additional 100-200 depending on how much you can do on your own.

So now we're up to 2.6k+/-. And we still have no way to route the air from the turbo to the intake. This is where you'll have to get creative and you can expect to pay anywhere from 200-500 dollars on just the things needed for the piping. If you have a mandrel bender and access to a tig welder you can get some fairly beautiful bends and come out looking like Brians engine bay. I unfortunately didn't have that ability so I ended up around 300-400 once all is said and done.

3k, and we haven't even done the turbo manifold yet, let alone the exhaust. The turbo manifold can go anyway you choose. I went completely custom and built my own (probably cost me around 200-300 without the labor price for a tig... with a tig factored in at about 60/hour that would probably be an extra 200-300 bucks). So if you can do the welding on your own, you should be able to pick up all the supplies and flanges you need for under 200 bucks. If not, expect to pay 300+ for a custom manifold. If you buy an off the shelf unit, you may have to compromise somewhere in an effort to make it work with the turbo. But if you can find a manifold to fit a larger turbo without huge modifications to the engine or chasis you should be golden. We'll say it'll cost you around 200 to pick one up.

3.2k. Now if you don't mind using a lot of your current exhaust you can get away with just getting a down pipe which shouldn't be all that expensive unless you're making it out of 316 stainless. 304 should be slightly less, but should still be around 100 bucks or so. I highly doubt you'll be able to find a downpipe that will mate exactly right and so you'll have to spend money getting it altered to work.

3.3k

Assuming you have all the adapters ready to install and hook up the turbo you can probably start mounting them and getting them all set up. You'll probably be looking at around 500 give or take on adapters and flanges

3.8k

Now lets look at gauges. This of course is completely dependent on what you want, how accurate you want, and if you're willing to put in that time for it. To get a full sensor suite you can expect to pay over 1000 bucks. If you pick and choose you may be able to get that price down to 500 if you're lucky. Brian went with an AIM digital Dash which for the price is great since it leaves a lot of the real estate of the dash open for important always on gauges. The gauges you'll definitely need: boost, oil pressure, water temp, AFR, and if you're willing (and I highly suggest these) front and rear EGT probes.

4.8k

Now lets look at actually being able to control the fuel (and spark if you really want to). You have full on stand alones ranging from 1.2k up to 8k. You have piggy back systems such as the SAFC which range from 100-400 but you don't get spark control. You can go RTek (which is what I did) and get both fuel and spark control for around 400 bucks. We'll assume you have a little more money and take a median stand alone system at the price of 3.5k (enough to get you an M400)

8.3k

Well you now have all the parts +/- a few different little things necessary to hook it all up. So just for safe measure you'll have around 1-2k for little things and mistakes. Nuts, bolts, gaskets, silicon, hoses, clamps, fluids, etc.

9.3k

Now depending on how much of the labor you do yourself you could easily be looking at only a few hundred dollars to over 1k in just labor alone. We'll assume your somewhat mechanically inclined and have the will and know how to build a lot of the things yourself.

10k.

This is by no means a cheap endeavor. Do not expect to get all the parts and be able to throw them on in a weekend. Especially if you're custom making a lot of parts. I originally planned to have my car down for 1 month without knowing that my engine was toasted. When I found that out, I figured another month would be enough time for me to do a rebuild and get it all installed. That worked only so well. I spent a lot of time just trying to coordinate with other fabricators and welders in an attempt to get it accomplished. Which ended up setting me back another month.

3 months it took me to completely re-do my engine bay, engine, turbo, exhaust, and all parts related there to.

I'll tell you if it was worth it when I break in the engine and start hitting boost. I'll tell you right now though, I'm spooling close to 3k with only very light throttle (hit 0inHG). I imagine I'll be very able to spool almost directly off idle if I put my foot down hard enough.

Sorry for the long post, but you asked a question that opens up a lot of other things. If you would like clarification please be specific with what you want to know ;

















Enjoy the read?

[vex]

now I know that's a lot to read, but here's some more food for thought:

What exactly are the benefits of using an NA engine compared to other methods to utilize a turbo? Well, lets first look at the different possibilities to which one can turbo an rx7 (maintaining the same style motor mainly 13B). For the sake of my sanity and the sake of others sanity as well I'll develop it in a list that is somewhat different than most.


13B NA

Hybrid Turbo Installation
Modifying the front cover and other portions of the engine to support installation of a Turbo (S4 or S5).
Manifold is stock mounting
Modification of the intake manifolds must be done to accommodate the turbo
Inability to maintain 6PI

Custom Application
Run any turbo you want
Uses existing or semi existing motor locations for oil and water
More fabrication work needed
Rarely ever plug and play
Ability to keep and maintain 6PI

13B Turbo
Inability to have 6PI
Much more porting possibilities
No Baffles in the exhaust stream
Ability to handle higher horsepower applications
Lower Compression rotors (more boost can be utilized)
13B REW
Similar to the 13B Turbo version
More technological development
More possibilities to run sequential, twins, or a large single
similar porting surface to the 13B Turbo
Lower compression rotors
Lighter rotors


Now is it really worth it to turbo charge an NA engine? Probably not. There's a few reasons for this, mainly if you're attempting to make a high compression turbo project it would be significantly easier to pick up a different keg and swap in some NA rotors. The only thing that the NA has that the Turbo versions do not is the 6PI or the VDI system. Which all in all isn't all that important if you consider that the only reason to have those systems is to have a manageable torque curve when you're actually trying to drive. This is accomplished in the 13B REW by the sequentials which provide an amazingly flat torque curve.

So here it is: The only reason to actually turbo charge an NA engine is to use a turbo with either the 6PI and/or the VDI system. The benefits? I can't say off first hand knowledge... though I imagine the ability to alter the torque curve would be the biggest thing. But there again that can be done with fancy turbo system by itself.

[Rotary#10]

just turbo swap everything it'll be worth more in the long run.

[TitaniumTT]

Oh my, where to begin.

First, Vex speaks the truth about the cost involved in turbo'ing an N/A motor. Both in the cost, the time, the fab and the pro's/minuses. Just look around, especially on the evil forum at all the little kiddies who slapped a turbo on thier N/A motor, bragged about it and then posted a week later that something went wrong and they're bitching about the rotary, complaining about the cost, the reliabilty etc etc etc. Going fast takes longer and going cheap will cost you more in the long run. These are lessons that I learned about 10 years ago and have seen people repeat countless times.

The big thing to ask yourself is what are your goals for this car. That will dictate which route you want to take.

Are you looking for a modest amount of power? Say 300 to the wheels? Normal rising torque curve? Nothing special under the hood? Don't want to take any chances? Swap in a 13BT, buy a factory new harness, and Rtek, a hybrid turbo and be done with it.

Is your thirst for power a little more? Look towards standalone EMS's (GOOD ones) custom mani's and off the self Garret or Turbonetics turbo's.

Is your thirst for power not that great but your wanting to be a little different from the flock the bigger priority? Do something custom with your N/A block.

Any way you go, you're looking @ a MINUMUM of probably $5-7k. Personally, I have a rather unique project, my goals were different from anyone's that I had seen and thus, my project is differnt from anyone elses. I will tell you though that the complexity of my project has lead me to 27 months of work and counting, and roughly $12k in ELECTRONICS ALONE. Then again I seem to be considered old, grumpy, sinicle and I have an attitude that most don't have - I just don't quit when I have something in my head. Right now I'm taking a little breather from my allnighter to get my car ready for the dyno on Saturday and the Auto-x's on Sunday...... & I have to be @ work ~ 7:30 tomorrow...... but hey, that's me. Most people aren't as stubborn as I am.

Basically you need to decide what you want from the car first and foremost. Like Vex said, maybe you'll dictate your budget, maybe your budget will dictate your project. Once you decide that, something more definate can be planned out.


A note on the twins. Unless you're planning on running them sequentially, there is really no sense in using them in a swap type application. If you're planning on swapping in an REW with an Apex PFC, ok maybe. But my route is certainly not for the faint of heart or the light of wallet, not bragging just saying that there are other ways to make the peak power that I did. Now the low end torque that I'll have should be better than any single out there making it the perfect car for my needs. I made 313 RWHP non-sequentially on wastegate with some creep to 10PSI. Respectable numbers, but those can be beat with a BNR hybrid and ALOT less time and cost. I've been running around for a few days with a VERY crude sequential map and holly mother of rotary does that little HT-12 fucking SPOOL! It's like vac vac vac vac, ok a little throttle holly shit did I just spike 16lbs @ 2500??? Yes, yes I did. The response it ridiculous. I can't wait to see the torque curve when they're dialed in, even if it is on a hurt motor I'll be able to get an idea of what they're capable of.

So, Yes I did enjoy the read Vex, you speak the truth as you and I have both lived this for a while

[TehMonkay]

Fuel pump, injectors, turbo II intake manifold and throttle body, stock turbo and manifold, portmatch T2 lim, add ems, plumb turbo, done.

If you really wanted to, i'd only do it if the motor was pretty much brand new.

[RotorDad]

Vex now thats a damn good break down of parts and issues associated with a NA to turbo car. i salute you for taking the time to share knowledge. :icon_tup: by the way what the hell is the evil forum?

[vex]

evil forum=rx7club. There's a few people who have had less then stellar dealings while there. It's sort of a running joke over here since they sensor RCC statements (basically any and all links to RCC do not work automatically).

[FerociousP]

can a mod please sticky and/or archive this so it can be linked to then next time (and there will be a next time) someone asks this??

[RotorDad]

oh ok i got you.

[Phoenix7]

technically, the term evil forum was coined by teamfc3s back in the day (years upon years ago) when they left the rx7club (for whatever reasons they had) and started their own forum.....the name just stuck and is forever synonymous with the rx7club.

And this thread is stickied....as soon as page 1 is full of stickies then I'll have ZGN create an archive for us.

[WE3RX7]

I feel like I should write a two page document on doing just a 13bt swap... but its been done too many times ;)


Good read vex.. and brian...

[Phoenix7]

TII swap is simple...plug and play.

[TitaniumTT]

My REW Sequential twin turbo charged 13B-RE is plug n play. I plug the harness into the firewall and I play:rofl: of course getting there took 27 months and I don't want to know how much

[Phoenix7]

:lol: plug and play in slow-mo...

[89fc3s]

Thanx. i decided on a t2 swap

[vex]

One of these days I'll do a write up/article on it.

[vex]

Update: It is not suggested and is almost impossible to use an RTek 2.1 N/A to run a NA-Turbo project. Will be looking at another ESM to handle the engine.