fc3s + Renesis = :)

[sen2two]

OK... im going to try and document this as much as possible with pics and tips. i am by no means a genious or have a bunch of money. i also have 2 other TII's wich get most of my money. i want to prove this is one of the best swaps for the price and power.

here we go.

so i'll start it off with getting the core into the car. this is probley the best thing to do first since you cant make anything else without knowing clearence issues.

heres a few pics of the motor mounts i made made 1/4inch steel plate. i got this metal for free this is why i chose it. i cut them out with a sheer and a hand torch. used a belt sander to smooth them out slightly. there not 100% done. i need to do some slight trimming and smoothing to make them look better. but for now, they work and fit very nice. there plenty strong and will be nice with the polyurethane bushings im using.

heres some pics...

motor mount pics

http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk253/bboynero/1990%20GTU%20meet%20renesis/mountsb.jpg

http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk253/bboynero/1990%20GTU%20meet%20renesis/passengersideb.jpg

http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk253/bboynero/1990%20GTU%20meet%20renesis/driverside.jpg

how they started:

http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk253/bboynero/1990%20GTU%20meet%20renesis/quarterinchplate.jpg

[sen2two]

installed:

http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk253/bboynero/1990%20GTU%20meet%20renesis/frontviewcomplete.jpg

http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk253/bboynero/1990%20GTU%20meet%20renesis/passenegersidemounted.jpg

http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk253/bboynero/1990%20GTU%20meet%20renesis/driversidemounted.jpg

[sen2two]

im going to add that this is my first ever attempt of trying to make motor mounts.

i bolted the tranny to the motor (S5 NA trans) and put them in together and mounted the tranny using stock tranny mounting positions. i then propped the motor up using a floor jack getting it to the right height and location using a level to make sure its even.

the FD front cover is on there in the picture because i was planning on using it. for the main reason of using the FD crank trigger mounted on the front cover. but im since thinking of using the S4 NA front cover i have on there now and using the FC crank angle sensor. alls you need to do is swap the renesis timing gear for a 12a/13b one and thats it.

i'll be using an FC water pump and housing either way. mainly because the FD one is very ugly and bulky. plus the FC one is lighter. i'll be updating more when i get to it. there much much fabrication to come. most of it will be my first time, proving it dosnt take a pro and a bunch of money.

i'll be hoping for 220-230 WHP when all is complete. in NA form with MPG near 18-20 city driving. and more reliability than any other rotary with equal power. and far more street drivability. this will be a TRUE daily driver with A/C and all!!!

[sen2two]

oh, and the car is a 1990 GTU.

this was all done in November 2008. i posted this on a few other forums. and was asked to bring it here.

so here it is!!!

the project has been slow moving since then though. i have done little thing like clean the engine bay up, buying thing like the ECU (Microtech LT8), de-wiring useless crap, ect... so theres no real updates as of right now. if i could just sell my 10AE this project would be moving along much much quicker.

[djmtsu]

Sweet swap.

All the 'old guys' say that it isn't worth doing, but I always begged to differ. Using the FC front cover/WP combo makes it easier it seems, and with that you can use a dizzy I would guess (which can simplify even more). I actually didn't even know you could do that. Bonus!

Let us know how it goes, I would be interested in something like this in the future. If it works out good, you should contact one of the fabrication vendors here (nolimit comes to mind, along with RESpeed) to maybe produce the mounts.

[neit_jnf]

Yes!!

[rotorhead87]

Sweet! I'll be looking forward to the furture of this project. A friend of mine is always raving about how badass a renesis would be in a FC.

[Phoenix7]

I've heard of people wanting to do it but never seen it done. Good job on the build.....make sure those mounts are sturdy and post results, reviews and all the info you find.

I'm one of the people that doesn't think it's a cost-effective swap...the power-to-money-spent ratio doesn't SEEM worth it to me but I'd love to hear how you feel about it so far.

[firzen]

I've heard of more people doing the opposite swap of 13BTs into the SE3P but this is an interesting development.

Kudos, and keep us posted!

[vex]

I've heard of people wanting to do it but never seen it done. Good job on the build.....make sure those mounts are sturdy and post results, reviews and all the info you find.

I'm one of the people that doesn't think it's a cost-effective swap...the power-to-money-spent ratio doesn't SEEM worth it to me but I'd love to hear how you feel about it so far.

I think initial upfront cost may be accurate but extensive modification I'm not so sure. You have a 64-bit ECU which can handle Cobb modifications (which supposedly is more accurate than a Motec ecu) for about 800 and the ability to further fine tune the engine with forced induction plus variable intake lengths would yeild a flater torque curve I figure. Starting with increased compression ratio's I don't think it too far fetched to be able to take it to the ragged edge to see a large HP number, however that ragged edge may be lower than the 13B's previous to this if we are to believe Kevin on the subject.

[RETed]

I'm one of those who doesn't believe it's worth it...

I commend you for tackling such a project.
The pics so far look really good.
I'd like to see the results when everything is finished.

Good luck on the project.


-Ted

[StarSpeedRacing]

Good work.
Can't wait to see it done!

[Phoenix7]

I think initial upfront cost may be accurate but extensive modification I'm not so sure. You have a 64-bit ECU which can handle Cobb modifications (which supposedly is more accurate than a Motec ecu) for about 800 and the ability to further fine tune the engine with forced induction plus variable intake lengths would yeild a flater torque curve I figure. Starting with increased compression ratio's I don't think it too far fetched to be able to take it to the ragged edge to see a large HP number, however that ragged edge may be lower than the 13B's previous to this if we are to believe Kevin on the subject.
and you're absolutely right. The engine management is supposed to be really good system. I remember a thread about boosted Renesis' where mazdamaniac explained the capabilities of the ECU and sensors and I was impressed.

just keep us updated, I'd love to see how you like the Renesis vs. the other cars. You plan on staying NA?

[Rotary#10]

mmm out of the box thinking here my friend.. renesis into a FC3S..? usually when you hear about someone upgrading there FC they'll usually gone into a turbo swap.. for more power, etc.. for its money.. All what your doing is breaking the line between what you can and can't do in a fc ! nice i'd like to see how it turns out. more props to you ! keep us posted with pics.. we'll call it the fc3s-R for the renesis swap. hehe just don't call it a type R hehe..

[Phoenix7]

I like that...FC3R. :lol: at FC Type R!

[Whizbang]

well all the turbo motors arent getting newer. The renesis is still a produced engine so i wont be surprise to see it become more popular with time. Especially in the lighter first gen.

[sen2two]

for me, the Renesis is the best rotary engine to date. Mazda didnt spend all these years and millions developing it to be worse than the previous rotary.

the 6-port Reni makes 236 flywheel. and the 4-port makes 198 i think. this means. in a completely stock N/A form. it makes either more or equal to a TII, with no lag! not to mention better milage, NA is USUALLY more reliable than turbo, no boost spikes, cooler oil, ect. ect.

give it time and when the real pros get to experimenting with the Renesis. everyone will see the true potential of the 13b-MSP.

after a while of having TII 400+ WHP daily drivers. you notice that theres really no such thing. you can call it that. but its really not.

[Phoenix7]

Perhaps.....keep it up and keep us updated. You're right tho, at 400hp I couldn't call them DDs.

[drewski86]

What's the reason for not using the Renesis front cover?

[WE3RX7]

I agree on the MSP being the best production NA engine ever built for street use, but lets not get ahead of ourselves and call it the best rotary :)

[vex]

I agree on the MSP being the best production NA engine ever built for street use, but lets not get ahead of ourselves and call it the best rotary :)

That would go to the 26B :D

[My5ABaby]

I agree on the MSP being the best production NA engine ever built for street use, but lets not get ahead of ourselves and call it the best rotary :)
That would go to the 26B :D

The 26B would be the best N/A rotary, but not the best production N/A for street use. :D

[vex]

The 26B would be the best N/A rotary, but not the best production N/A for street use. :D

26B Turbo....:drool:

[sen2two]

the reason im not using the renesis front cover is for ignition. im using the FC CAS. makes it easier. and the reni front cover is hidious. but you can use anyone you like from all 13b's or 12a's. they all fit.

the reni is longer than older 13b's because the front and rear plates are thicker. they did this to make the turn in the port less abrupt for better flow. this making your only choice for oil pan a custom one. not as easy as swapping a GSLSE on there.

i dont count the 26b. it was a race only engine.

now the problem with turbo'ing the reni is the weak apex seals and the high compression. there are shops out there now who machine down the rotors to your desired compression and to fit standard type apex seals. if i had the money to go that far, i would. and i plan to in the future. just not at the moment. they already have the reni making some nice numbers in unported stock form. like i said in an earlier post. wait until the real pros get into the renesis. people will be amazed and records will be broken...

[RETed]

wait until the real pros get into the renesis. people will be amazed and records will be broken...

I highly doubt that.


-Ted

[sen2two]

I highly doubt that.


-Ted

im sure thats what other auto makers thought in 92. right before the 787 destroyed them and outlawed the motor...

not arguing. just stating an opinion.

[RETed]

787?
Are you talking about the LeMans winning vehicle?
What does that have to do with the RX-8 MSP engine?
IIRC, the 787 used a 4-rotor, PP engine.

So, I really don't understand your point.
If you think your MSP engine will outdo anything PP (even the older 13B PP exhaust), then I think you're smoking crack.
Please do your research first - SAE is a good start.
http://www.sae.org/
The advantages of the PP port over a side port is thoroughly documented.

The only benefit the MSP has over a PP is the minimizing of the (port timing) overlap.
Less overlap means for better emissions.

Don't let the 200+ quoted hp ratings fool you.
It's more due to the higher redline.

Keep in mind, at BP motor with the "older" PP exhaust will produce the same if not better numbers than the MSP.


-Ted

[classicauto]

the reason im not using the renesis front cover is for ignition. im using the FC CAS. makes it easier. and the reni front cover is hidious. but you can use anyone you like from all 13b's or 12a's. they all fit.

Not ALL front covers are simply interchangable. ALL will bolt to the front iron yes, but not all have the same pattern on the oil pan bolts. REW front cover is different from earlier ones. I've yet to inspect a renesis front cover up clsoe for a swap, but from the picture, it looks as if its the same as the REW (oil pan bolt pattern wise) in which case if you pan to use the RENESIS oil pan, you'll have to modify one or the other.

[neit_jnf]

It's more due to the higher redline.

-Ted

wrong

the renesis has higher torque and power across the whole rev range than any previous NA rotary

it probably has better low end up to about 4 or 5000rpm than pp motors too.

[sen2two]

787?
Are you talking about the LeMans winning vehicle?
What does that have to do with the RX-8 MSP engine?
IIRC, the 787 used a 4-rotor, PP engine.

So, I really don't understand your point.
If you think your MSP engine will outdo anything PP (even the older 13B PP exhaust), then I think you're smoking crack.
Please do your research first - SAE is a good start.
http://www.sae.org/
The advantages of the PP port over a side port is thoroughly documented.

The only benefit the MSP has over a PP is the minimizing of the (port timing) overlap.
Less overlap means for better emissions.

Don't let the 200+ quoted hp ratings fool you.
It's more due to the higher redline.

Keep in mind, at BP motor with the "older" PP exhaust will produce the same if not better numbers than the MSP.


-Ted

your right, you completely misunderstood what i said. the 787 4-rotor was the only rotary engine in that class. and im sure all the other automakers didnt think it stood a chance until is destroyed all the other competitors. so calm down buddy...me no likey crack

and the redlibe has nothing to do with the power output directly. they red line is just where it makes consistent power to. you could rev all day to 15k, but if your not making power there, whats the point?

and yes, a BP or PP will put out higher numbers. but no exstensive porting has been put into the renesis yet. again, give it time. also, how reliable and how streetable is a large BP or PP? or even a small semi-PP? these motors are making in stock form almost what those make. this is my point. stop being negative. no ones trying to argue here.

and i have put a 12a, 13b/gslse, TII,13b NA, and FD front cover on the renesis. all work just fine. only one hole dosnt line up. wich is an easy fix. try it out and you'll see what i mean.

and i already stated that a custom oil pan will be needed given the renesis is longer. read the statement right below what you quoted.

jeeze... maybe i shoud not of posted this here. just trying to put it out there. cause theres so many people asking about this. but no ones done it... why do all the internet guru's nit pick. isnt this why people hate rx7club? and come to places like this

[My5ABaby]

your right, you completely misunderstood what i said. the 787 4-rotor was the only rotary engine in that class. and im sure all the other automakers didnt think it stood a chance until is destroyed all the other competitors. so calm down buddy...me no likey crack

and the redlibe has nothing to do with the power output directly. they red line is just where it makes consistent power to. you could rev all day to 15k, but if your not making power there, whats the point?

and yes, a BP or PP will put out higher numbers. but no exstensive porting has been put into the renesis yet. again, give it time. also, how reliable and how streetable is a large BP or PP? or even a small semi-PP? these motors are making in stock form almost what those make. this is my point. stop being negative. no ones trying to argue here.

and i have put a 12a, 13b/gslse, TII,13b NA, and FD front cover on the renesis. all work just fine. only one hole dosnt line up. wich is an easy fix. try it out and you'll see what i mean.

and i already stated that a custom oil pan will be needed given the renesis is longer. read the statement right below what you quoted.

jeeze... maybe i shoud not of posted this here. just trying to put it out there. cause theres so many people asking about this. but no ones done it... why do all the internet guru's nit pick. isnt this why people hate rx7club? and come to places like this
I was under the impression that you really can't do much extensive porting on a renesis due to its design. But.... I'm not anywhere near an expert.

[Phoenix7]

jeeze... maybe i shoud not of posted this here. just trying to put it out there. cause theres so many people asking about this. but no ones done it... why do all the internet guru's nit pick. isnt this why people hate rx7club? and come to places like thisit's just an opposing view....don't get upset about it. Also, nit-picking and opposing views isn't the reason why the rx7club is hated. Just leave that can of worms alone for now though.

What's the next step in your FC3R project?

[sen2two]

damn, that was a lot of typing rotary resurection...lol. got time on your hands?

for the most part you made a lot of sence. and i already understood about the front cover/length part. its not a problem. although i MIGHT be the first to put one in a FC. im not the first to put one in something that is not an rx8. i know of one in PR that has done it. a mud buggy did it. the plane from RWS did it. plus i mocked it up. its not a problem.

and i did ask my self why mazda had been replacing them. but i know the answer also. there is 2 oil injectors per rotor. each facing the side at an angle. thus lubricating the cornerseals and side seals. not the apex seal. resulting in loss of compression and variating dyno numbers. they have now added a 3rd oil injector in the center to fix this problem. they were just trying to keep it a secret that they made a design flaw. so when these motors are being replaced. your actually getting an 09 motor with 3 oil injectors. i'll be pre-mixing as i do with all my cars. problem fixed...

and its true about not having much room to port in these. i wish i had a bad iron from a renesis to experiment with. but they are hard to come by at the moment. but i have seen pictures of a bridge port renesis. and a semi-pp renesis. only pics, not running. so i dont know how it turned out.

plus i think the key is to go with the 4-port. its the exact same as the 6-port, but the upper 6th port is just filled in. the castings are the same. they just dont mill out the 6th port or however they create the ports. this leaves room to port. but like i said. i wish i had a spare unusable one to experiment with.

[RotaryProphet]

Well, for what it's worth, I think it's a neat swap, but then, people think I'm nutjob crazy, too.... (ie, installing a Megasquirt standalone on an FC because I didn't want to find all the problems in the hackjob wiring harness on it... it's a matter of selective lazyness).

Has anyone built a turbo renny by just throwing some old 13b turbo rotors & counterweights in? Wouldn't that be easier than sending rotors out to be milled and such, or are the side ports in the ren designed differently enough that it would cause problems with the side/corner seals?

[classicauto]

Has anyone built a turbo renny by just throwing some old 13b turbo rotors & counterweights in? Wouldn't that be easier than sending rotors out to be milled and such, or are the side ports in the ren designed differently enough that it would cause problems with the side/corner seals?

There is an "assist" seal on the RX-8 rotors which is designed to protect the oil control rings from the heat of the exhaust as it wraps around the side of the rotor out the exhaust port......I know there's some people who have boosted the MSP engine in its natural form, but I'm not aware of any cases where they've used the older rotating assembly - and those assist pieces may be some of the reason why not.

[Fidelity101]

if the OMP doesn't line up you can always solve it with premix!

[sen2two]

i havnt heard of anyone using old 13b rotors in a reni. but i know of a few people to put reni rotors in a older 13b.

i think the problem is the side seal placement.the side seals are further outward toward the edge of the rotor. so maybe the reni would eat corner seals. im not really sure. i havnt checked myself. i remember seeing that somewhere. so dont quote me.

[Max777]

Perhaps.....keep it up and keep us updated. You're right tho, at 400hp I couldn't call them DDs.

why does the power level matter? rich people daily drive a 599 GTB Ferarri, and that car has 600horsepower. I think that if you can legaly register, insure, and drive the car on the street every day, then it's it's a daily driver.

Last i checked, those were the only prequisites.

To the TS:

Thank you for posting this over here, I knew edit: some people would love to see this swap!

-Max.

[Max777]

double post

[Fidelity101]

why does the power level matter? rich people daily drive a 599 GTB Ferarri, and that car has 600horsepower. I think that if you can legaly register, insure, and drive the car on the street every day, then it's it's a daily driver.

Last i checked, those were the only prequisites.

To the TS:

Thank you for posting this over here, I knew edit: some people would love to see this swap!

-Max.

Well because they are rich and they also have upwards of 6.0lt of displacement that is powered by months of development by highly qualified engineers and only a few years old of a car if that. A modified car is a little different, lacks the smoothness of production.

also what if to solve the soft iron portion, you nitride them?

[sen2two]

maz777... have you ever owned and daily drove a 400+ WHP rx7? there no daily driver. i have 2 as of right now. just because you can drive them legally on the street. dosnt make them streetable.

RotaryResurrection. you seem to be pretty up to date on the renesis. i see that the front covers are thinner on the reni, but i still dont see the problem with the pulley. when i put the front cover on with the pulley. theres still room. weather i use the RX8 pulley, or a FC pulley. i even put a 1st gen one on there and it was fine. it goes all the way on without touching the front cover...

did you ever see it not fit? or are you going off a thought? i just want to make sure. it has me thinking im doing something wrong here...

[Max777]

Well because they are rich and they also have upwards of 6.0lt of displacement that is powered by months of development by highly qualified engineers and only a few years old of a car if that. A modified car is a little different, lacks the smoothness of production.

I understand your point, however, that doesnt mean a modified car can not come damn close...

I remember reading quite a few articles about JDM and Euro car tuning, and how some tuning shops pruduced cars that went fast as balls, but yet still offered factory like comfort, full interior, A/C, and what else.

The RE-Amemiya street FD3S is a good example... it is fully road legal, yet whoops everybody elses ass.

There are companies like EXEDY can make a clutch that will withstand 500hp, yet still feel close to stock, while an ACT unit will feel like hell in comparison.

-Os Giken makes a new puck style LSD that exibits none of the typical rumble, clunking, and noise of lets say, a KAAZ.

My point is, that yes, if you modify a car, you will no doubt make it "less streetable", but with at least some effort, and quality engineered parts, and some smart thinking, you can create a really fast car that will still be "streetable". That is how you build a street car.

If you build a race car however, where you remove all emissions, sound deadening, gut the interior, install a roll cage, really hard suspension, all spherical suspension joints, loud ass exhaust, and a host of other mods that make a car unstreetable, and then bitch that its "unstreetable", then isn't it your own fault? :D Shouldn't you have thought of that when building the car, right?

[Fidelity101]

^

definitely, there is always are exceptions to every rule.


NO gym for home, then who was phone?

:rofl:

The irons are (to my understanding) nitrided from the factory. Still they are very susceptible to cracking under high power (boosted applications or nitrous) and if for some reason the engine develops bad coolant seals, the least little bit of coolant that gets into them and is let to sit for a week or 2 will destroy them.

what?

Okay I didn't know they were factory nitrided but by making the metal stronger it made it more brittle so that is where I can see the cracking possibilities.

[Max777]

just as a follow up on street cars vs. race cars, there's the thread about a red FC being built by a 45 y.o. guy as a "street car". It's a prime example of what I'm talking about.

[RETed]

wrong

the renesis has higher torque and power across the whole rev range than any previous NA rotary

it probably has better low end up to about 4 or 5000rpm than pp motors too.

Pull off that fancy schmancy 3-stage intake, and I'd like to see what kinda power it makes?
That intake system does a lot to add to the power output.


-Ted

[RETed]

and the redlibe has nothing to do with the power output directly. they red line is just where it makes consistent power to. you could rev all day to 15k, but if your not making power there, whats the point?
Actually, I don't believe what you just typed, but that's a whole nother tangent entirely...

and yes, a BP or PP will put out higher numbers. but no exstensive porting has been put into the renesis yet. again, give it time. also, how reliable and how streetable is a large BP or PP? or even a small semi-PP? these motors are making in stock form almost what those make. this is my point. stop being negative. no ones trying to argue here.
This is why I tend to fuck with turbo'd 13B's.
No need to mess with all this normally aspirated bullshit.


jeeze... maybe i shoud not of posted this here. just trying to put it out there. cause theres so many people asking about this. but no ones done it... why do all the internet guru's nit pick. isnt this why people hate rx7club? and come to places like this
You get mighty defensive, huh?
This is an open forum.
As much as you get to express your opinions, I do too...as long as we don't break the rules.
I did not agree with something you said in this thread, so I typed a reply and cited my references.
A lot of the numbers being thrown around are a bit...twisted.
The only thing that does matter is WHEN you finish this project and then throw up a dyno sheet.
This is why I HATE project threads that are not completed - there's too many of them, and people get really unrealistic claims of what their cars MIGHT do.
Like I said before, I'd like to see this project FINISHED; it will prove or disprove what I've been saying for a long time now.


-Ted

[WE3RX7]

I'll be interested to see how this turns out, its definitely different and fun to watch.

I tend to agree with Ted (sometimes) about the fancy intake manifold on the reni. Without that and the higher compression, its not going to outperform a good large SP13B engine.



On the other note, I have to strongly disagree with the not-streetable high output daily driver. I could list countless production cars in that category, but I'll stay on point and only discuss RX7s. Its all in the tuning. You can easily have over 400whp and drive it every day, but it takes time and money (as does everything really). Its so common now for guys to install an EMS and get a "rough" or what they consider a "good" tune. I've seen these maps and over half of the options arent even touched. What makes your run of the mill car run so well is its tuning. Engineers spend countless hours going through the numbers and doing the math and making these engines run GREAT. Thats why its so easy when you bolt something on, it mucks it all up - because the original engineers didnt compensate for stupidity.

Either way, horsepower has nothing to do w/ interior either. So you can have a comfortable (as comfortable as a 2 door sports car can be) 400 or more HP car.

Not to mention, look at the PCM flashes the EVOs get these days. Just a PC reflash and they get over 400hp and otherwise its mostly stock!

[vex]

I'll be interested to see how this turns out, its definitely different and fun to watch.

I tend to agree with Ted (sometimes) about the fancy intake manifold on the reni. Without that and the higher compression, its not going to outperform a good large SP13B engine.



On the other note, I have to strongly disagree with the not-streetable high output daily driver. I could list countless production cars in that category, but I'll stay on point and only discuss RX7s. Its all in the tuning. You can easily have over 400whp and drive it every day, but it takes time and money (as does everything really). Its so common now for guys to install an EMS and get a "rough" or what they consider a "good" tune. I've seen these maps and over half of the options arent even touched. What makes your run of the mill car run so well is its tuning. Engineers spend countless hours going through the numbers and doing the math and making these engines run GREAT. Thats why its so easy when you bolt something on, it mucks it all up - because the original engineers didnt compensate for stupidity.

Either way, horsepower has nothing to do w/ interior either. So you can have a comfortable (as comfortable as a 2 door sports car can be) 400 or more HP car.

Not to mention, look at the PCM flashes the EVOs get these days. Just a PC reflash and they get over 400hp and otherwise its mostly stock!

Speaking of which, I should have you look over the tune on my car when I get the turbo in.

[WE3RX7]

^NP..