My A-Spec 500R Kit Dyno Charts [Archive]

TurboSquirrel

10-27-2008, 12:36 PM

Had my '93 tuned by Ray Wilson at PFSupercars last week. Very happy with the power numbers but the lag is pretty bad.

Tune was with 93 octane gas, Ray said I was making about 15HP / pound of boost.

I've marked each graph at the point max boost was achieved (15.9lbs @ 5.6K rpm). On the road it seems more like 6K rpm until max boost though....

Mods include:
- Tial 44mm WG w/ .9 bar spring
- Greddy 3-row FMIC
- 550s/1600s, Supra pump
- a-spec long runner manifold

Would be very interested to know from others with this kit how much boost they're running and what RPM it is reached at.

I'll put some pics of the kit in the next post.

TurboSquirrel

10-27-2008, 12:39 PM

Here's a few pics of my A-Spec 500R Kit pre-install...

DamnitzRoger

10-27-2008, 12:40 PM

wow thats awesome! i'm actually planning on buying the same kit, but their "500r-sp" kit instead.

TurboSquirrel

10-27-2008, 12:46 PM

wow thats awesome! i'm actually planning on buying the same kit, but their "500r-sp" kit instead.

Yeah, I am assuming that's what I have as well, if you look at that pic above of the number plate on the turbo they call it 500RSP. Do you know what the difference is between this and the regular 500R kit?

- Kevin

Phoenix7

10-27-2008, 12:50 PM

Why are you getting full boost so late?

TurboSquirrel

10-27-2008, 01:01 PM

Why are you getting full boost so late?

No idea, really wish I knew. I wanted to see if you folks had any ideas?

Someone was looking at it Saturday at the Speed for Sale shootout and thought the manifold looked pretty restrictive....

Again, I'm happy with the power, just wish it was more responsive.

David Jerome

10-27-2008, 01:11 PM

The car pulls great up top, but it should be seeing 15lbs by around 42-4500 not around 5300 rpms.

Here are some pics of Kevin's car, one of the best looking fds in the country in my opinion. :)

Phoenix7

10-27-2008, 01:15 PM

David Jerome

10-27-2008, 01:38 PM

holy giant turbo of immensity! That thing is HUGE!

Any porting done to the motor?
Is it possible the manifold isn't working with the exhaust flow (if motor is ported)? Looks like the mani starts off wide, then gets narrow and then wide again, right by where your hand is. I really don't know a thing about the A-spec manifolds though. Any more info?

Worse case scenario you add a bit of nitrous to get the car going?

The turbo really isnt that big, not in my opinion any ways. I would be interested to see how that turbo acts on another manifold. I installed a T04R recently which is very similar in size with the .84 exhaust housing and it would hit 15lbs by 4k rpms with no problems.

classicauto

10-27-2008, 01:45 PM

Porting on the engine?

Exhaust size/configuration? (any cats?)

TurboSquirrel

10-27-2008, 02:07 PM

Porting on the engine?

Exhaust size/configuration? (any cats?)

Engine is Street Ported with 3mm Apex Seals.

DP & MP are 3" (OD) with a Greddy EVO "Grapefruit Shooter" Exhaust that's 3.5" (OD) and no Cat...

- Kevin

TurboSquirrel

10-27-2008, 02:10 PM

The car pulls great up top, but it should be seeing 15lbs by around 42-4500 not around 5300 rpms.

Here are some pics of Kevin's car, one of the best looking fds in the country in my opinion. :)

Sweet pics David thanks! The compressor does look big in that one, lulz. :001_005:

DamnitzRoger

10-27-2008, 03:12 PM

Yeah, I am assuming that's what I have as well, if you look at that pic above of the number plate on the turbo they call it 500RSP. Do you know what the difference is between this and the regular 500R kit?

- Kevin

The newer ones use larger turbines with custom profiles machined to suit the specific housing. This allows for better more specific applications. They fit better, meaning they have more room around the CHRA to work with than the older models. They are proving to perform better as well in testing. The SP runs a .84 turbine housing, it spools quicker than the older 1.0 or 1.06 obviously however due to the specific wheel profiles the new .84 SP is showing more flow up to top than the old 1.06 A/r So your getting quicker response down low and more flow up top. Sounds like a good move in the right direction to me. :) The HP models will be able to outperform your standard 1.0 TO4Z as that was the goal in mind for that version and will be geared more towards high hp street/highway type car.

If it were me I would say a SP is about as good as it gets. Great response with the capability of going over 500whp. and honestly anyone who has been in a 500whp FD can tell you. It is more than adaquate for anything short of bragging rights.

I'll check the links and GOOD FOR YOU!! :) Another track proven a-spec powered FD.

got if from their section on rx7club.com

cewrx7r1

10-27-2008, 10:21 PM

Phoenix7

10-27-2008, 10:25 PM

good to know

TurboSquirrel

10-27-2008, 10:45 PM

The boost curve is sloppy like your EBC is not functioning too well or not properly hooked up. It spikes and then drops off erraticaly.

Mine did that when I first hooked it up. Then I tried hooking my EBC differently than the manual showed. If you use the turbo outlet as your boost source for both the WG and EBC, then it senses a higher base pressure than the controlled pressure source. This is caused by the pressure drop in the IC.

I take my pressure source from my Greddy TB elbow and that "Ts" into the WG side and WG solenoid input. The IC also acts like a filter to smooth out fluctuations.

This made a great improvement in my boost control. You might also need to experiment with the GAIN to obtain the quickest spoolup that does not either cause spiking or boost start to increase.

You max HP was produced at 15 psi boost. Thus if it stayed at 16psi, you would have made maybe another 15 HP.
"Ray said I was making about 15HP / pound of boost."

Thanks Chuck, your guide has been invaluable to me learning this stuff and helping tune my idle / cruise! I'll see how adjusting the gain helps spoolup.

Quicker spoolup is my main goal.

I'm using an old Profec-B with the solenoid pressure sourced from the UIM. The "OUT" side of the EBC solenoid goes to the top of the WG, and the side of the WG is being sourced near the Compressor before the intercooler.

Previously, I had the side of the WG pressure source coming from the UIM and I would get boost creep consistently. Have not seen any creep since sourcing from the compressor.

Thanks

- Kevin

David Jerome

10-27-2008, 10:46 PM

I spoke to another owner of this kit and he is claiming actually slightly worse response in 3rd and 4th gear but marginally better response in 1st and 2nd? His car made around the same power at the same boost level, within about 10rwhp.

I havent seen many if any other dyno graphs or reports about this turbo. At this point I am lost on what is causing the slow response. Hopefully adjusting the Profec B will help dramatically. We will see I guess.

Kevin, I know the wastegate spring is 13lbs, when you had it running directly off the spring bypassing the Profec was response really any better or have you tried this since have it tuned?

dregg100

10-27-2008, 11:41 PM

Thanks Chuck, your guide has been invaluable to me learning this stuff and helping tune my idle / cruise! I'll see how adjusting the gain helps spoolup.

Quicker spoolup is my main goal.

I'm using an old Profec-B with the solenoid pressure sourced from the UIM. The "OUT" side of the EBC solenoid goes to the top of the WG, and the side of the WG is being sourced near the Compressor before the intercooler.

Previously, I had the side of the WG pressure source coming from the UIM and I would get boost creep consistently. Have not seen any creep since sourcing from the compressor.

Thanks

- Kevin

get rid of the pressure source from the intake manifold. run pressure from the compressor housing to the "in" on the profec and run the "out" to the side port on the wastegate and leave the other port open(could be the other way around for the the wastegate, i cant ever remember)that could be part of your problem, but damn, that is absolutely horrible for response. when i had my regular 35r on a stock port engine with the 1.06 housing i was seeing 18 psi by~3800. the 500r just has a differend comp wheel if im not mistaken. that just seems really odd, especially for a ported motor.

have you checked all your intercooler piping for leaks? intake gaskets?

:edit: just read the above post copied from the other forum. the sp has a different hotside, but is getting better response than the standard 500r according to sean. so you should be hitting 15psi under 4k no problem.

David Jerome

10-28-2008, 12:06 AM

The boost curve is sloppy like your EBC is not functioning too well or not properly hooked up. It spikes and then drops off erraticaly.

."

It is hard to see in the graph that Kevin posted but the boost actually only fluctuates less than 1psi between 5100-7500 rpms. Only flucuated about .5psi from 5500-7500rpms.

TurboSquirrel

10-28-2008, 12:12 AM

get rid of the pressure source from the intake manifold. run pressure from the compressor housing to the "in" on the profec and run the "out" to the side port on the wastegate and leave the other port open(could be the other way around for the the wastegate, i cant ever remember)that could be part of your problem

dregg100 I had the EBC hooked up that way once before (inline between the pressure source and the side of the WG with top open to atm) and it would never allow the WG to open (as if the WG was never seeing pressure). DIP switches set to external WG option btw.

Just to be clear, here's how I have it setup currently:

- a line from Compressor to the side of the WG
- a line from the (OUT) port on the solenoid to the top of the WG
- a line from the UIM to the (IN) port on the solenoid
- a line from the UIM to the Profec-B control box inside the car

New UIM to LIM and TB Gaskets. No boost leaks that I can find between compressor and TB.

dregg100

10-28-2008, 08:47 AM

have you tried changing the dip switches to the "other" settings that greddy says to do if you are having problems? its on there website.

TurboSquirrel

10-28-2008, 11:46 AM

Thanks for everyone's suggestions so far!

After doing some logging this morning, here are my results after adjusting the GAIN setting on the EBC. Also, David suggested seeing how it did running off the WG only and I have included that result as well.

There are three charts attached. The vertical line is the point where my expected max boost was obtained.

Each run is in 3rd Gear from around 3000rpm

(1) Chart_WGonly.JPG: EBC off (.9 BAR Spring)
(2) Chart_EBC_HighGain.JPG: EBC on, and the GAIN setting high (overboosted)
(3) Chart_EBC_Current.JPG: EBC on, and GAIN adjusted to desired boost

After adjusting the GAIN settings, the best spoolup achieved was around 5300rpm. Running on the WG only did not appear to improve spoolup.

afterburn27

10-28-2008, 12:29 PM

Wow, that is pretty poor response from an 0.84 A/R housing. I would expect 15 psi closer to 4k RPM.

Your setup seems correct to me. Someone already mentioned it, but check to make sure you have the correct settings on your dip switches.

I would also expect better response off the wastegate alone, meaning that your EBC setup might not be a factor. Are you sure that you don't have any exhaust leaks on either side of the manifold? I had a friend with a similar situation and once he fixed his exhaust leak he was spooling 500+ RPM earlier than before. It was tricky too because you couldn't hear it at idle or cruise. It was really only leaking under boost and he had an open wastegate so there was no way to verify the leak until it started leaving carbon deposits under the manifold.

David Jerome

10-28-2008, 03:22 PM

Im pretty sure Kevin doesnt have any leaks between the engine/manifold, wastegate/manifold, or turbo/manifold.

His response in 3rd gear is actually better than the only other person who has given me info about this kit. Its not impossible that there is a leak but everything on this car is brand new.

Trout2

11-05-2008, 10:36 PM

Did you guys make sure the flanges on the manifold were flat?

Jack

sk8world

11-05-2008, 11:48 PM

I just dont think it could be the A-spec mani as thats the same mani I run but on a larger turbo (4094). I was seeing full boost around 4750 on my past setup (BDC streetport/ 3 inch exhaust).

David Jerome

11-06-2008, 07:56 AM

I dont think it is the manifold either. It appears it was my fault:cuss::leaving: Kevin or myself will update this thread in a few days when I get a chance to work on his car. I have a feeling the spoolup will be much better. :)

I wont leave you guys hanging, we had some fitment issues with the wastegate hitting the subframe with the kit. So I had to remove the wastegate from the manifold to drop the engine back in the car(we removed the engine to reseal the oil pan). I dont remember installing the valve seat that comes with the Tial BOV. We had to put on and take the wastegate off several times and it appears I never installed the valve seat that helps seal up the wastegate/manifold v-band connection. I will reinstall it in a couple days(hopefully have time) and we will report back. Kevin got his hands on about 5 other 500r dyno charts and they were all seeing 14-16lbs at about 43-4400 which is about 1k rpms sooner than Kevin.

afgmoto1978

11-06-2008, 11:49 AM

Hmmm...exhaust leak....

afgmoto1978

11-06-2008, 03:20 PM

That would explain a few things. Oh, by the way David, my turbo is a 68mm turbine vs. turbosquirrels 74mm turbine. An A to B comparison may occur some later next year once I get my car back on the road.

TurboSquirrel

11-06-2008, 03:25 PM

Alright, problem is all sorted out now! :001_005:

I've attached PFC Charts showing 3rd and 4th Gear runs from around 3K RPM.

Much better response than before with out the valve seat installed. :icon_tup:

Happy Days!

afgmoto1978

11-06-2008, 03:41 PM

LOL, wow.

Phoenix7

11-06-2008, 04:15 PM

congrats....how's it feel?

TurboSquirrel

11-06-2008, 04:19 PM

congrats....how's it feel?

LOL, I think I pee'd a little bit in 2nd gear! :driving:

Most awesome!

Thanks everyone for your advice and troubleshooting BTW, really awesome group on here.

- Kevin

classicauto

11-06-2008, 04:51 PM

lol yeah that would do it :):)

Phoenix7

11-06-2008, 05:16 PM

fun fun, gotta get some vids posted up!

sk8world

11-08-2008, 09:37 PM

Looks good and I bet its a completely differant car now!... I am kinda suprised Ray did not pull the gate off to check it out but at that point he may have been thinking of 10 differant things it could have been..

Brent

11-09-2008, 01:03 AM

Glad you got it all sorted out Kevin. I can't wait to get a ride in in next summer.

Turbo10th

11-26-2008, 11:39 PM

Man i want the 500rsp kit soo bad. Had me worried with the lag, glad you got it fixed.

AzCamel

11-27-2008, 04:52 AM

good, i knew your huge lag was not normal, i have a GT4202 and i get full 20psi at 4100rpms.

FDSeoul

12-02-2008, 03:11 PM

were you able to retain your A/C system with this kit. Sorry if this has already been covered.

TurboSquirrel

12-02-2008, 03:16 PM

My A/C has been removed for a long time.

I don't see why the kit would interfere though, I would think it has more to do with the Intercooler and intake piping arrangement.

I have a relocated battery as well.

David Jerome

12-02-2008, 04:00 PM

The AC would still work with this kit. You might have to get creative with the condensor but other than that it would work without issue.

Barry Bordes

12-03-2008, 08:25 AM

Thanks for everyone's suggestions so far!

After doing some logging this morning, here are my results after adjusting the GAIN setting on the EBC. Also, David suggested seeing how it did running off the WG only and I have included that result as well.

There are three charts attached. The vertical line is the point where my expected max boost was obtained.

Each run is in 3rd Gear from around 3000rpm

(1) Chart_WGonly.JPG: EBC off (.9 BAR Spring)
(2) Chart_EBC_HighGain.JPG: EBC on, and the GAIN setting high (overboosted)
Imag/attachmentid=3060&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1225212318/imag

(3) Chart_EBC_Current.JPG: EBC on, and GAIN adjusted to desired boost

After adjusting the GAIN settings, the best spoolup achieved was around 5300rpm. Running on the WG only did not appear to improve spoolup.

As a side note:
If you look at the above maps your knock level going into boost is higher than I am comfortable with. I would take a little timing out. On later maps you seem to have dropped the leading timing to 15º from 19º.
Barry

ErnieT

12-09-2008, 10:36 PM

I wouldn't change a thing on your map. Ray tuned it. Nobody on this board or any other is more qualified than he is. If you have an issue, call him, not these people on here.

Barry Bordes

12-22-2008, 12:54 PM

I wouldn't change a thing on your map. Ray tuned it. Nobody on this board or any other is more qualified than he is. If you have an issue, call him, not these people on here.

Ernie, this was a learning moment not meant to impugn anyone's reputation especially Ray Wilson.

For those of us who want to learn from Ray... you notice that in the early runs he had 19º leading and approximately a 62 knock. Ray then dropped the leading to 15º and the knock lowered into the twenties.

Barry

hsitko

12-23-2008, 05:35 AM

I wouldn't change a thing on your map. Ray tuned it. Nobody on this board or any other is more qualified than he is. If you have an issue, call him, not these people on here.

Seriously. I posted up my dyno chart on the club, and a bunch of guys chimed in saying that my af was too lean. Well, steve kan tuned it, and now that i see yours, well, it looks literally identical, so yeah. Dont listen to people on the internets for tuning advice. They had me all paranoid. And in my case i really dont think 11 to 11.5 is lean at all.

Your first boost resopnse issues really had me wondering about that kit. 5500rpm is pretty late to see 15psi. I bet your much happier now. My .86 hotside 35r hits 15 at around 3800ish and it is a kick in the pants with only 380whp. I bet yours is a blast.