replaced shifter spring, spring doesnt spring

[jahjahsqc]

Okay, so when I got the car it needed some work to put it back together. I attacked the trans first. I replaced the shifter spring and everything is back in now. New spring, New pin. The trans is not in the car, its on my bench. The shifter also has no bushings currently and its not bolted in. So... The purpose of the shfter spring is to make the shifter "spring" back from 1/2 to the center, correct? well it doesn't right now, it still springs back from the 5/R gate but doesn't from the 1/2. Being that this was taken apart when i got it, I'm not sure if something didn't go back together properly. Anyone experienced this before

[JL1RX7]

I would check that it didn't pop out and everything is put back together correctly. Having it out of the car makes that part easier.

[jahjahsqc]

I've still got the large side access plate off and i can see and feel it smoothly going into all gears, but no spring back. I'm thinking i may have the shiter inserted wrong or something else reassembled wrong.

[infernosg]

The return spring actually doesn't apply centering force from 1-2 gear shifts, only 5-reverse. If you look closely at the design of the spring and how the shifter works you'll see this. The return from 1-2 is actually achieved through the upper and lower bushings, wave spring, and gaskets on the shift lever itself. I always thought this spring was broken on my original transmission but when I removed it I found the spring to be perfectly intact. It was only once I replaced all the bushings and other equipment in the shift level did everything tighten up.

[jahjahsqc]

I thought it might have something to do with the bushings also, so went ahead and put all the bushings in and put that 3 bolt top plate on and it still will not center from a 1/2 shift.

So far I've replaced the Shifter spring & Upper and lower bushings with the wave springs. All OEM mazda parts.

I'll get some pics...

[jahjahsqc]

This shows the spring and everything as it sits right now. Oh and its an 87 Turbo II tranny with an S5 shifter.
http://imageshack.us/a/img560/8273/nxz7.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img41/9760/opt9.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img842/9974/uith.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img19/7579/5iaw.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img27/8531/45wz.jpg

[Rotary Evolution]

The return spring actually doesn't apply centering force from 1-2 gear shifts, only 5-reverse. If you look closely at the design of the spring and how the shifter works you'll see this. The return from 1-2 is actually achieved through the upper and lower bushings, wave spring, and gaskets on the shift lever itself. I always thought this spring was broken on my original transmission but when I removed it I found the spring to be perfectly intact. It was only once I replaced all the bushings and other equipment in the shift level did everything tighten up.

false, the wire spring acts as the 1/2 return spring. if the shifter is sloppy or too tight though it will not work very well.

if the bushings are set too tight the drag applied will make the return weak and feel limp. mount the shifter first without any wave washers, then apply one to the bottom first if needed to eliminate slop. also apply some grease to both of the pivot balls on the shifter.

5/R has a plunger/spring, which the transmission should have on both gates instead of the rigged pos setup we have. the FD has the proper setup on both gates.

and of course, be sure the roll pin is installed. if it's not the shift rod may be binding on the burr left behind as it sticks to the improper gate inside the transmission(looks like it is but the last picture isn't that great).

[infernosg]

I'm not as familiar with the R type transmissions (turbo) as I am with the the M type (n/a) but shouldn't there be a little bushing inside the control rod end? Without this the shifter will be really sloppy and loose.

[Rotary Evolution]

only on the n/a series 5.

[jahjahsqc]

Okay, double checked it all. tried it with and without bushings, tried and check everything.

Springs back from 5/R but still nothing from 1/2. I'm at a complete loss here, i checked schematics and I'm not missing anything either.

[infernosg]

So I got the 1-2 and 5-reverse backwards in my first response and yeah, the control end bushing is only in the series 5 n/a transmission (thanks Rotary Revolution) so here's try #3. Have you tried taking the control end assembly apart and putting it back together again? There is a specific order some parts need to be installed. Have you tried with the shifter completely bolted back in? You picture above shows the shift lever without the lower boot and mounting flange.

[jahjahsqc]

So I got the 1-2 and 5-reverse backwards in my first response and yeah, the control end bushing is only in the series 5 n/a transmission (thanks Rotary Revolution) so here's try #3. Have you tried taking the control end assembly apart and putting it back together again? There is a specific order some parts need to be installed. Have you tried with the shifter completely bolted back in? You picture above shows the shift lever without the lower boot and mounting flange.

When you suggest taking the control end assy apart are you refering to taking the pin back out and removing the block from the end of the control rod? I have not done that. I have taken both side covers off and the plug in the back and checked for obstructions and everything and then put them all back together. I don't see that I'm missing any pieces either. On the driver's hand side where the ball/spring/plunger piece is... Does the "plunger" piece neeed to be oriented a certain way? I didnt put any thought into this because i assume this piece's job is to center the shifter from 5/R which it does just fine.

In the last picture I posted am I missing something? I was thinking there was supposed to be something else there... this was completely apart when i got it and the factory service manual doesnt show a good parts break out for the shifter.

[Rotary Evolution]

honestly i don't know, everything looks correct to me. the only reason i can think of for it not working is either the spring or the shifter itself are binding.

[infernosg]

When you suggest taking the control end assy apart are you refering to taking the pin back out and removing the block from the end of the control rod? I have not done that. I have taken both side covers off and the plug in the back and checked for obstructions and everything and then put them all back together. I don't see that I'm missing any pieces either. On the driver's hand side where the ball/spring/plunger piece is... Does the "plunger" piece neeed to be oriented a certain way? I didnt put any thought into this because i assume this piece's job is to center the shifter from 5/R which it does just fine.

I don't think removing the control rod end would do anything. It looks like everything it is there correctly and you have to remove the extension housing to pull it, which is annoying if everything is sealed. By "plunger" I assume you're referring to the thing above the longer spring in my picture below?

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-EmICPzS6Y44/UXUfuO6jHNI/AAAAAAAABvw/3wcwOSB5LsU/s640/20130420_210106.jpg

Again, I don't know how different the TII transmissions are from the n/a ones but in my case the flat spot on this feature needs to be facing the rear of the the car. Here is where the order of installation is important. After the control rod end and roll pin are installed next is the large spring and the plunger (these are what provide the spring force for 5/reverse). After that is the small steel ball, small spring, and bolt. Any important step is to rotate the control rod end as if you were shifting into 5/reverse before installing the steel ball and spring. The steel ball has to engage the flat spot on the "plunger." Since you said you can get into every gear I don't think this is an issue and either way, this shouldn't affect the 1/2 return.

In the last picture I posted am I missing something? I was thinking there was supposed to be something else there... this was completely apart when i got it and the factory service manual doesnt show a good parts break out for the shifter.
My picture above has all the parts for a n/a transmission. I'd have to take a look in the FSM to see if the TII is any different. For reference here is how mine looked what I got everything back together:

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-i2lG_oAD8Go/UXUfxk1My3I/AAAAAAAABv4/oM6YrL-pBkY/s640/20130420_214121.jpg

Looks the same, right?

[Rotary Evolution]

the shifter assembly is virtually the same between the TII and n/a transmissions so the assembly should be the same.

[omega]

Check the ball and spring to see if there is a broken spring. Its the ones that are held in by a sleeved bolt. That helps with the return..

[FerociousP]

IIRC, the lower ball on an s5 shifter is small and uses a nylon bushing in the extension arm cup.

http://www.mazdatrix.com/pictures/g-tra-di/89-92BotBushB.jpg

http://www.mazdatrix.com/g4.htm

S4 shifters have a larger lower ball and uses no bushing. Is there play where the lower ball and cup interact?

It could be that when moving over to 1-2, there isn't much force on the spring as there is play between the lower ball and the cup.

When you move over to 5-6, the tension is on the coil spring, and you still get rebound..

[jahjahsqc]

IIRC, the lower ball on an s5 shifter is small and uses a nylon bushing in the extension arm cup.

http://www.mazdatrix.com/pictures/g-tra-di/89-92BotBushB.jpg

http://www.mazdatrix.com/g4.htm

S4 shifters have a larger lower ball and uses no bushing. Is there play where the lower ball and cup interact?

It could be that when moving over to 1-2, there isn't much force on the spring as there is play between the lower ball and the cup.

When you move over to 5-6, the tension is on the coil spring, and you still get rebound..

Thats a good thought. I never thought about that. I wish I had an original S4 shifter to compare the two.

I've got everything back together right now with the S5 shifter, and I hit the shifter bushings with a little silicone spray and with the slightest amount of effort it springs back back from the 1/2 gate. Good enough for me for right now.

[omega]

So did you check the spring tension on the side spring and ball ?

[jahjahsqc]

So did you check the spring tension on the side spring and ball ?

You mean that spring brings the shifter back from the 5/R gate? Yes it works fine. I don't have a problem with the RH gate, just the LH gate.

[omega]

Also did you put gear fluid in ? Just asking because it was not mentioned. If not, only fill it halfway .