car smoking

[therex]

I know you guys have probably have heard this before but my car is smoking now, kinda bad.

it smokes at startup, sometimes at idle, and while im driving, car starts up great, and drives great too, not sure where its coming from, just wondering where i should start looking, eats a lot of oil, probably a quart a week ( i dd it)

not sure if its the turbo or oil control seals...?

coolant levels havent changed either

[therex]

there is a small oil leak, and theres oil on the bottom of my turbo and wastegate from a bad oil return line, have pics

http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh301/brettcool66/DSC00200.jpg
http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh301/brettcool66/DSC00199.jpg
http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh301/brettcool66/DSC00197.jpg
http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh301/brettcool66/DSC00201.jpg

[Mazdabater]

I'd pull the turbo and check it out. Might help to pray first if your religious lol. Sounds like alot of smoke though for it to still be running fine. Your coolant level won't drop unless you've done a coolant seal, and even then it's pretty slow.

[therex]

I'd pull the turbo and check it out. Might help to pray first if your religious lol. Sounds like alot of smoke though for it to still be running fine. Your coolant level won't drop unless you've done a coolant seal, and even then it's pretty slow.


Lol i will but honestly what am i looking for, and anything else i should be looking for?

[RETed]

Where is the smoking coming out from?
Under the hood?
From the exhaust?

Is the smoke from oil?
Smell the smoke...
If it burned your eyes, it's oil.
If it's sweet smelling, it's coolant.

If it's under the hood, then it's a leak somewhere...
You need to replace the gasket or tighten the fitting.

If it's the exhaust, then it gets a bit more involved...
It could either be the engine or the turbo.
How much miles on the engine?
If you're around 200,000 miles, the engine might need to be rebuilt - no way around it.
If it's the turbo, then the turbo needs to be rebuilt.

One quick test is to pull the spark plugs...
Are the they are cruddy and wet with oil?
Good chance the motor is no good; minor chance the turbo compressor seal is bad.
Pull the intercooler pipes and intercooler - lots of oil pooling inside?
Turbo compressor seal needs to be replaced - i.e. turbo rebuild.
I don't see oil leaking from the turbine section - usually that's an indication of the turbine oil seal going bad.
It might be the seal hasn't totally let go and is only a minor leak so far.

You're not getting too many responses, cause your posts and descriptions so far are very vague.


-Ted

[therex]

Where is the smoking coming out from?
Under the hood?
From the exhaust?

Is the smoke from oil?
Smell the smoke...
If it burned your eyes, it's oil.
If it's sweet smelling, it's coolant.

If it's under the hood, then it's a leak somewhere...
You need to replace the gasket or tighten the fitting.

If it's the exhaust, then it gets a bit more involved...
It could either be the engine or the turbo.
How much miles on the engine?
If you're around 200,000 miles, the engine might need to be rebuilt - no way around it.
If it's the turbo, then the turbo needs to be rebuilt.

One quick test is to pull the spark plugs...
Are the they are cruddy and wet with oil?
Good chance the motor is no good; minor chance the turbo compressor seal is bad.
Pull the intercooler pipes and intercooler - lots of oil pooling inside?
Turbo compressor seal needs to be replaced - i.e. turbo rebuild.
I don't see oil leaking from the turbine section - usually that's an indication of the turbine oil seal going bad.
It might be the seal hasn't totally let go and is only a minor leak so far.

You're not getting too many responses, cause your posts and descriptions so far are very vague.


-Ted


i know i know, sorry

yes the smoke smells like oil and is coming out of the exhaust, not the hood

engine shouldnt have more than 20k on it but i honestly dont know

i had the spark plugs out a couple days ago, i dont remember them being wet

and already checked the intercooler pipes for the TB side, no oil. should i check the other side?

and i drove the car yesterday and it barely even smoked, but the night before my friend was behind me and i could see the smoke because of his lights

thanks ted

[Mitchocalypse]

http://www.aa1car.com/library/reading_spark_plugs.jpg

that might help you diagnose your spark plugs. how long after start up does it take for the smoke to appear? any external leaks? (puddles on ground)

[therex]

http://www.aa1car.com/library/reading_spark_plugs.jpg

that might help you diagnose your spark plugs. how long after start up does it take for the smoke to appear? any external leaks? (puddles on ground)

lol those are all rancid, theyre just normal and black, not oil tough i dont think and right when i start it and no puddles, and smokes when i take off ive never seen it when i was driving

[RETed]

Okay, let's assume it's the turbo (turbine piston ring) that's bad...

Try and do a high idle test?
Shift trans into neutral...
Rev up to 4kRPM's for at least 10 seconds.
Do you see smoke out the exhaust?
Do you see a LOT of smoke out the exhaust or a little?

Does it smoke more when you go into boost?


-Ted

[therex]

Okay, let's assume it's the turbo (turbine piston ring) that's bad...

Try and do a high idle test?
Shift trans into neutral...
Rev up to 4kRPM's for at least 10 seconds.
Do you see smoke out the exhaust?
Do you see a LOT of smoke out the exhaust or a little?

Does it smoke more when you go into boost?


-Ted



alright ill do that when i get home

and actually yeah now that i think about it one of my friends told me after i left from a light (boosting) there was a lot of smoke, and i just put almost a quart of oil on 2 days ago and now its basically all gone ( the quart)

thank you, will update when i do the test

[therex]

bump have the turbo and ex mani off, no oil in the manifold, dont really know what to look for now

[Pete_89T2]

Did you do the 4K RPM in neutral test Ted mentioned before taking it apart? If so, what were the results? No smoke, little smoke, lots of smoke?

[RETed]

bump have the turbo and ex mani off, no oil in the manifold, dont really know what to look for now

Is the turbine wheel on the back end of the turbine housing *BLACK*?


-Ted

[therex]

gahh i forgot to do it! but ive done something like it before, i never looked for smoke but i could smell it a bit, and it definately smokes more when i go into boost.

and no its actually white? ill post a pic

[therex]

http://i48.tinypic.com/21j6ljn.jpg

[RETed]

If the car is smoking, it isn't smoking that much... :D

I assume the exhaust ports on the engine / turbo exhaust manifold has color about the same as the turbine wheel?
If so, that's good and bad.
Good that it's not a major failure of the oil control rings on the engine.
Bad that we cannot narrow it down to either the engine or the turbo - the oil leak isn't that bad yet. :(

Can you take apart the turbine housing off the turbo?
It's just the 6-bolts that are along the inside of the turbine housing facing the turbo center housing.
Those should be 13mm (or 1/2") bolt heads.
If you can take that off, we can inspect the area between the center housing and turbine heat shield.

Just to make sure we cover all the bases...
You did check the intercooler pipes and intercooler for signs of oil pooling in there, right?


-Ted

[therex]

If the car is smoking, it isn't smoking that much... :D

I assume the exhaust ports on the engine / turbo exhaust manifold has color about the same as the turbine wheel?
If so, that's good and bad.
Good that it's not a major failure of the oil control rings on the engine.
Bad that we cannot narrow it down to either the engine or the turbo - the oil leak isn't that bad yet. :(

Can you take apart the turbine housing off the turbo?
It's just the 6-bolts that are along the inside of the turbine housing facing the turbo center housing.
Those should be 13mm (or 1/2") bolt heads.
If you can take that off, we can inspect the area between the center housing and turbine heat shield.

Just to make sure we cover all the bases...
You did check the intercooler pipes and intercooler for signs of oil pooling in there, right?


-Ted




Lol it was getting annoying though and yeah i can take it apart but i dont really want to haha would i need a new gasket? And yeah i looked at the exhaust ports, really clean, obviously black from exhaust though, no oil , no oil in intercooler pipes a guy on a local forum said it looked wet around the turbo shaft rear seal?

[RETed]

No gasket on that part of the turbo.
Everything is machined friction fit.


-Ted

[therex]

No gasket on that part of the turbo.
Everything is machined friction fit.


-Ted

alright i guess ill give that a try what am i looking for and what should i torque them back to?

[RETed]

Torque them down till they stop and nothing moves... :D
I know there are torque specs out there (you can use the ones for the generic Garrett T3/T04 turbos), but I find it very hard to get the head of a torque wrench into that space.
If you happened to be able to torque them properly, the fact that they are 13mm bolt heads implies that torque should in the range of 20 - 40 lb./ft.

Once you get the turbine housing off, you'll expose the turbine wheel.
Right under the turbine wheel, you have a "cover" of sorts - this is the turbine heat shield.

http://turbocharged.com/catalog/parts_list.html
It is part #18 labeled here as "wheel shroud."

If the turbo is leaking out out the turbine piston ring back there, you're going to find a lot of crust black stuff fall out when you "spin" that heat shield.
This turbine heat shield is normally held into place when the turbine housing is bolt back in.
Once the turbine housing is removed, this heat shield can move a little bit.
If no oil is leaking back there, it's going to be pretty clean and no black, crusty bits will fall out when you shake it.

Some tips...
When you remove the 6 bolts holding the turbine wheel to the center housing, the turbine housing will most likely get stuck.
Note that two of the bolts are lined up with the oil supply and drain flanges.
Alternate backing these two bolts out evenly, and this will help "push" the turbine housing off the center housing.
When removing the turbine housing, try to keep contact with the turbine wheel to a minimum.
You can double-check this by spinning the wheels as you slowly remove the housing.
Initially, you can tap the turbine housing with a hammer gently in a circle to help it come off.
The turbine housing will be stubborn sometimes, and you'll feel like you're going to snap the bolts doing this, but I have never broken anything no matter how badly stuck everything is.
When you put everything back, make sure these two bolts line up in the same position.
It is important that the oil supply and drain flanges are vertically up and down.


-Ted

[therex]

looks like it was a bad turbine piston ring!

http://i46.tinypic.com/34qk61i.jpg
http://i45.tinypic.com/jh5xtv.jpg
http://i47.tinypic.com/2usbcjb.jpg

[RETed]

Yep, you can see the black, crusty stuff coming out from under the cup.
If you can had gone one step further and pulled the wheels apart, then you would've seen the mess that's under the cup. :D
Congrads for getting down to the bottom of this!
Replacing the turbo is a lot better than replacing the engine...

Looking at the non-stock bolts on the compressor housing side, this turbo has been taken apart / rebuild before?


-Ted

[therex]

no idea! and funny...i called a guy at a local turbo shop and he said all that cover and ring are used for are exhaust gasses and its most likely my drain line not big enough,thats why its coming out of there

[RETed]

Yes, it's possible that back-pressure through the oil drain line can cause oil to leak past the turbine compression ring back there...
...but we're talking about a stock turbo using the stock oil drain line, right?
Unless you messed up a gasket or went bonkers with the silicone RTV, that's almost impossible...

http://turbocharged.com/catalog/parts_list.html

Part #16 is the turbine compression piston ring that needs to be replaced.
Since these rebuild kits are relatively cheap versus the labor costs, you might as well get the entire turbo rebuilt.


-Ted

[therex]

Yes, it's possible that back-pressure through the oil drain line can cause oil to leak past the turbine compression ring back there...
...but we're talking about a stock turbo using the stock oil drain line, right?
Unless you messed up a gasket or went bonkers with the silicone RTV, that's almost impossible...

http://turbocharged.com/catalog/parts_list.html

Part #16 is the turbine compression piston ring that needs to be replaced.
Since these rebuild kits are relatively cheap versus the labor costs, you might as well get the entire turbo rebuilt.


-Ted


lol no, not stock turbo and not stock drain line...

[RETed]

Hmmm...turbine housing looks stock.
What kinda turbo is it?

What size oil drain line are you running?
Can you take a pic of it?
If the oil drain line is too small or badly designed, it could be possible that "fixing" this problem could solve the smoking problem...


-Ted

[therex]

Hmmm...turbine housing looks stock.
What kinda turbo is it?

What size oil drain line are you running?
Can you take a pic of it?
If the oil drain line is too small or badly designed, it could be possible that "fixing" this problem could solve the smoking problem...


-Ted
UPDATE

if anyone cares lol

i guess its the stock turbo...but me and a guy i know whos a nut with these ended up doing a bunch of stuff and also deleting the oil metering pump, NO MORE SMOKE thank god!