Help me choose apex seals and bearings

[MacGyver]

Hi guys. I'm looking to build a new engine for higher power output with a goal of 400HP on pump gas. This will be a daily driven engine, it may see an autocross one day but not often. The parts I need help with are

Apex Seals:
I've looked at 2 piece Mazda, Goopy and ALS. The Mazda have proven wear characteristics. The Goopy and ALS are regarded as great for high power applications and resistance to detonation events. Does anyone have any feedback on Goopy or ALS seal housing wear characteristics?

Stationary and Rotor bearings:
The engine I'm rebuilding has excellent condition stock bearings but I'm unsure how they will hold up in the long run at elevated power levels. Either way I will be using a Racing Beat high pressure regulator and machining a groove for an o-ring between the pump body and front iron. I'll be keeping the stock ball and spring eshaft jet as well. Additionally I (need help with) was thinking RX-8 gears/bearings and Mazdatrix competition rotor bearings along with reaming the oil passages to 3/8". Plan is to keep the redline the same. Thoughts on whether is a worthwhile mod or waste of money?

Appreciate an feedback you guys can give.

[Sharingan 19]

Sounds like a good list with the except the reaming of the passages to 3/8", not to say it will be detrimental, just haven't heard that mentioned in any of the oil mod conversations.

I'm running the Goopy seals with 9.4 rotors personally, my plan is to run around 300whp daily (low boost) and 350whp (highboost) for ....fun stuff after the engine is broken in. No the only internal mods I've done is the modify the oil pressure regulator for 80psi.

[NYCGPS]

I'm not sure about Groopy and ALS but Mazda seems fine for your Applications.

No Apex seal can survive too much ping, Groopy might wrap instead of breaking like Mazda, but the result is the same --- you lose compression and you need a rebuild.

but if your tuning is safe you don't have to worry too much about that in the first place, all you really need to focus on is the tuning.

You can use 13B-MSP Eshaft and Bearings, they're better and cheaper. no modification is necessary. As for Rotor bearings, you don't need the compeition one unless you are going above 8-9K rpm all the time, stock actually works quite well

for oil pressure, you can just use FD rear and add 2 1/8" shims to the front, then you are set, and much cheaper

[infernosg]

I'm not sure about Groopy and ALS but Mazda seems fine for your Applications.

No Apex seal can survive too much ping, Groopy might wrap instead of breaking like Mazda, but the result is the same --- you lose compression and you need a rebuild.

but if your tuning is safe you don't have to worry too much about that in the first place, all you really need to focus on is the tuning.

You can use 13B-MSP Eshaft and Bearings, they're better and cheaper. no modification is necessary. As for Rotor bearings, you don't need the compeition one unless you are going above 8-9K rpm all the time, stock actually works quite well

for oil pressure, you can just use FD rear and add 2 1/8" shims to the front, then you are set, and much cheaper

Good info on the oil pressure regulator - should be cheaper than buying the "upgraded" unit from Racing Beat, etc.

A note on the RX-8 stationary gears: some modification is required for the rear gear to ensure the oil passage is open and you'll need to use hylomar/silicone to seal the rear gear to the housing as there is no o-ring groove.

[TitaniumTT]

Stationary and Rotor bearings:
The engine I'm rebuilding has excellent condition stock bearings but I'm unsure how they will hold up in the long run at elevated power levels.

If there is ever a chance that the bearing is questionable, just buy the RX8 stuff. Cheaper and better than stock replacements.

Either way I will be using a Racing Beat high pressure regulator

Just find an FD one

and machining a groove for an o-ring between the pump body and front iron.

Where did you get that idea? :suspect:

I'll be keeping the stock ball and spring eshaft jet as well.

Ditch that, get a plug.

Additionally I (need help with) was thinking RX-8 gears/bearings and Mazdatrix competition rotor bearings

Just go ahead and get the 8 bearings/stat gears if there is any question.

along with reaming the oil passages to 3/8". Plan is to keep the redline the same. Thoughts on whether is a worthwhile mod or waste of money?

I wouldn't w/the stock pump and the stockish system you have planned.

I'm not sure about Groopy and ALS but Mazda seems fine for your Applications.

I wouldn't use them for anything other than stock turbo and 250ish HP

No Apex seal can survive too much ping, Groopy might wrap instead of breaking like Mazda, but the result is the same --- you lose compression and you need a rebuild.

BULLSHIT. The seals I run survived a 16.9:1 @ 15psi detonation event... basically cruising @ high rpms, high vacuum and punched it. Boost when from 15" to 15 lbs in a split second and the car detonated so hard it nearly knocked teeth out. Pulled over, pulled a datalog, found the problem, fixed the problem, drove another 1000 miles before doing a compression test.... which showed 114all around

Not to mention... I would much rather have a seal warp and loose compression than break and wipe out a rotor, a housing, possibly a plate and possibly a turbo.... so no, the results are not the same

but if your tuning is safe you don't have to worry too much about that in the first place, all you really need to focus on is the tuning.

Things go wrong, and they go wrong faster than you can react. I wouldn't use mazda seals for a hi-hp engine even though plenty of people do.

You can use 13B-MSP Eshaft and Bearings, they're better and cheaper. no modification is necessary. As for Rotor bearings, you don't need the compeition one unless you are going above 8-9K rpm all the time, stock actually works quite well

This is accurate and what I run in my engine

for oil pressure, you can just use FD rear and add 2 1/8" shims to the front, then you are set, and much cheaper

I wouldn't add the shims. I did in mine and ended up taking them out and my oil pressure is still 135-140 at cold start, and 100psi cruising down the highway. It's just too much.

Good info on the oil pressure regulator - should be cheaper than buying the "upgraded" unit from Racing Beat, etc.

Indeed

A note on the RX-8 stationary gears: some modification is required for the rear gear to ensure the oil passage is open and you'll need to use hylomar/silicone to seal the rear gear to the housing as there is no o-ring groove.

Just make sure that it's all lined up when you test fit the gear/bearing assembly. I use a little grey permatex or "right Stuff" in the corner and that's all you really need.

-Brian @ S1

[Nismo]

If there is ever a chance that the bearing is questionable, just buy the RX8 stuff. Cheaper and better than stock replacements.

I think I paid 250 for front and rear stat gears.

Just find an FD one

I paid $35 for the stock fd, better than the $80 rb wants.

Where did you get that idea? :suspect:

Do you machine the pump housing or the iron? I am thinking about doing this for the RE

Things go wrong, and they go wrong faster than you can react. I wouldn't use mazda seals for a hi-hp engine even though plenty of people do.

What are you using?

[infernosg]

Ditch that, get a plug.
Forgive my ignorance but what benefit does this provide?

Do you machine the pump housing or the iron? I am thinking about doing this for the RE
I'm also curious.

I guess I'm not up to speed on my oil system modifications...

[TitaniumTT]

I think I paid 250 for front and rear stat gears.

Sounds right for retail ;)

I paid $35 for the stock fd, better than the $80 rb wants.

And more base pressure, and you don't have to pull your pan off to adjust it

Do you machine the pump housing or the iron? I am thinking about doing this for the RE

Pump housing. Pressure is insane. I constantly blow out the o-ring in the front cover and it ends up in the filter. Pressure is still more than adequate.

What are you using?

RX7 specialties

Forgive my ignorance but what benefit does this provide?

Reduced the chance of a future failure, doesn't allow oil to bypass

[TitaniumTT]

Where ya been Kevin? Still not done w/that RE yet? Damn man

[NYCGPS]

I

I wouldn't use them for anything other than stock turbo and 250ish HP


assume everything is fine, mazda seals will hold higher compression.


BULLSHIT. The seals I run survived a 16.9:1 @ 15psi detonation event... basically cruising @ high rpms, high vacuum and punched it. Boost when from 15" to 15 lbs in a split second and the car detonated so hard it nearly knocked teeth out. Pulled over, pulled a datalog, found the problem, fixed the problem, drove another 1000 miles before doing a compression test.... which showed 114all around

you were lucky thats all.

a warp seal might kill whatever you said as well, Mazda choose to heat treated their Apex tips for a reason.

Not to mention... I would much rather have a seal warp and loose compression than break and wipe out a rotor, a housing, possibly a plate and possibly a turbo.... so no, the results are not the same

each to their own, see above.



Things go wrong, and they go wrong faster than you can react. I wouldn't use mazda seals for a hi-hp engine even though plenty of people do.

I agreed, but

again, each to their own. there are people who use it and they're ok with it. so can't really say who is right/wrong, just a preference.

I run Ceramics in mine. choose because it's easy on housing, and they last almost forever. sure they're harder and if they break, 99% will kill everything, but I am willing to take that risk.

I wouldn't add the shims. I did in mine and ended up taking them out and my oil pressure is still 135-140 at cold start, and 100psi cruising down the highway. It's just too much.

The front is really just there to prevent the oil system self-destruct, most of the time it will be bypass at the rear.


Just make sure that it's all lined up when you test fit the gear/bearing assembly. I use a little grey permatex or "right Stuff" in the corner and that's all you really need.



I fit it without any issue, you can tell if by eye. and I just put some silicone and it works fine. Some people even use Hylomar, and they're fine. in the other words, use whatever works.

[NYCGPS]

Forgive my ignorance but what benefit does this provide?


same idea as the front pulley bolt plug, there is a chance that it will fail, when it does, it always get stuck either open or closed position.

either one is bad for you.

mind u they are loctite from factory, so if u wanna remove it and install a plug, u might want to hit that spot with a propane torch for 30 seconds first, then unscrew it fast.

[MacGyver]

Do you machine the pump housing or the iron? I am thinking about doing this for the RE

The examples I've seen were on the pump housing. It is a variation of the notebook paper gasket but should not change the stack-up clearance.

Pressure is insane. I constantly blow out the o-ring in the front cover and it ends up in the filter.

Was yours at this pressure level even with the stock FD regulator?

[Nismo]

Where ya been Kevin? Still not done w/that RE yet? Damn man

Oh been busy making a baby, little girl 7 weeks old today, should have the engine built in July, should be able to start break in sometime around October.

[TitaniumTT]

you were lucky thats all.

No. I wasn't. That's what those seals are designed for. Any other seal I'm confident would've broken. Leaving me with an 800 mile tow home, and a worthess set of rotors and housings.

I run those seals for a erason

A warp seal might kill whatever you said as well, Mazda choose to heat treated their Apex tips for a reason.

No. A warped seal will just loose compresion unless you run it for a very long time. THen it will wear the housings in a bad way

I run Ceramics in mine. choose because it's easy on housing, and they last almost forever. sure they're harder and if they break, 99% will kill everything, but I am willing to take that risk.

I am not. But then again I am always trying new things


Was yours at this pressure level even with the stock FD regulator?

Yes

Oh been busy making a baby, little girl 7 weeks old today, should have the engine built in July, should be able to start break in sometime around October.

Wow... congrats man.

[infernosg]

same idea as the front pulley bolt plug, there is a chance that it will fail, when it does, it always get stuck either open or closed position.

either one is bad for you.

mind u they are loctite from factory, so if u wanna remove it and install a plug, u might want to hit that spot with a propane torch for 30 seconds first, then unscrew it fast.
Ah, got it. So are you guys plugging this are replacing it with a fixed jet? I would think eliminating it altogether would be bad, no?

[NYCGPS]

Ah, got it. So are you guys plugging this are replacing it with a fixed jet? I would think eliminating it altogether would be bad, no?

think of it this way

Can it fail? yes

How often? Rarely

See above.

Honestly I leave mine as is, didn't even bother. but YMMV

[diabolical1]

Ah, got it. So are you guys plugging this are replacing it with a fixed jet? I would think eliminating it altogether would be bad, no?
no. not bad. personally, i don't see a point to putting an engine together with the stock ball and spring. just don't go ape-shit with the jet size.