Traction control, wheel speed sensors... who wants 'em?

[TitaniumTT]

So I'm having a buddy of mine who works at a steel facility lazer cut a set of trigger wheels for the FC. These will be a 24 tooth count wheel cut from A36 mild steel. 5/16" thick in the front, 1/4" thick in the rear. They will both bolt to the back of the drive flanges.

In the front, you would need a GT101DC sensor, a 5/16" dill bit, and a 3/4" drill bit to mount them on factory ABS equipped knuckles. Or if you're baller like me, you have a 1/4" - 1 and something colbalt step bit. The better the 3/4" bit the better, as you need to drill out the cast iron or whatever it is hard as hell steel front knuckle to at least .7" to accomodate the sensor.

In the rear you would need to remove the drive flange, bolt them on, and press them back into the hubs. I didn't pull a measurement on the bearings as tyhis just now occured to me... you MAY be able to slip them on over the bearings, meaning press the entire bearing assembly out, slip the wheels on, press the whole assembly back in. Otherwise when removing just the drive flange, you are almost gaurunteed to destroy the bearings which cost $55 each.... You would also need to figure out a way to mount the sensor. According to my math, using a flat plate of AL, and bolting them to the dust shield bolts, you'll end up with ~.035" of clearance... it doesn't get much better than that.

This has the potential to be a one time gig, I expect very little to zero interest in these and thus there won't be any GB pricing structures so don't even ask ;)

We're also looking into getting them cadnium or zinc plated. After a year of use on my car, the fronts are showing age already.

So, if you're interested, post up....

Think Race Logic systems, wheel speed sensors, aftermkt speedo's, AIM or Racepack digital dashes, baller MoTeC Traction Control systems that I was looking at tonight and have built in 2-step and launch control... expect more fireballs than usual at this years DGRRXI, that and I think Dave's asshole might pucker a little when we dial this thing in on the street :smilielol5: I logged a near 4s 0-60 launch with the 6-spd and wheel spin at the top of 1st and 2nd :gnorsi:

[TitaniumTT]

Price might help..... Depending on the cost of the plating, price should be under $10/wheel but I won't know anything for certain until we figure out the cost of the coating.

Oh, and this is happening soon... like as soon as possible 'cuz I got a lot of shit to figure out on my car and I haven't even pulled one part off it yet for Deals.... and there's 62 days left, and I need to send shit out for ceramic coating, and plating, and powdercoating, and new brakes and yeah like 49 other things... literally, and I need to get on the motherfucking ball.

So if you want 'em, lemme know and how many.

[My5ABaby]

So I would have to be able to break traction for these to help, correct? :rofl:

[tweiss3]

I'd be in (even though im years away from this) for that price. Final price is important though, but for $10 a corner, I doubt i could pass it up.

[TitaniumTT]

So I would have to be able to break traction for these to help, correct? :rofl:

:lol: In a way.... yes.... Also consider swapping a trans to something that doesn't have a speed sensor, or running a different speedo... whatever the case may be.

I'd be in (even though im years away from this) for that price. Final price is important though, but for $10 a corner, I doubt i could pass it up.

Keep in mind this is ONLY for the trigger wheel. There is a $50-$80 sensor that is also needed.

[TitaniumTT]

http://rotarycarclub.com/rotary_forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=8062&stc=1&d=1274333872

http://rotarycarclub.com/rotary_forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=8063&stc=1&d=1274333872

http://rotarycarclub.com/rotary_forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=8064&stc=1&d=1274333872

[tweiss3]

Yea, but sensors you can get any time, these are one offs

[tweiss3]

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, i have another question related. Does motec have a TC switch, to just turn it off when you need to? Say in snow where spinning is better than not.

[TitaniumTT]

Yup, and built in launch control. Fully adjustable programable TC... Can't wait

[vex]

Almost all aftermarket ECU's have a DPI (Digitally Pulsed Input) which can be set to a binary switch type deal (on off).

B, I may be interested in these, but I have to get my car setup and together before I go investing money like this. Is there any reason in particular you chose mild steel as opposed to another ferrous metal with less corrosive properties or are you planning on offering powder coating of the wheels as well?

(Ferrous non-corrosive metals include most stainless steels; T300, T400, T600, etc)

[TitaniumTT]

I was told to use mild steel for the best signal quality. When the .dxf are finalized I'm going to keep a copy in a safe place. From what I understand many of the lazer cutters won't take on a small order much like the one that's going on here. There are a few water jet co's out there that will, but they'll be more expensive. The one in the lic is a water jet piece, and it was something like $27... EACH.... so yeah, 3-5x the price for small shit.

I'm not going to powdercoat these as it may affect the pickup. Candnium or zinc plating is where it's gonna be at.

[vex]

I was told to use mild steel for the best signal quality. When the .dxf are finalized I'm going to keep a copy in a safe place. From what I understand many of the lazer cutters won't take on a small order much like the one that's going on here. There are a few water jet co's out there that will, but they'll be more expensive. The one in the lic is a water jet piece, and it was something like $27... EACH.... so yeah, 3-5x the price for small shit.

I'm not going to powdercoat these as it may affect the pickup. Candnium or zinc plating is where it's gonna be at.

You have means to do that plating? I would think the zinc would be prone to flaking due to press fit and what not.

I know of a waterjet company that does a $150 min order for whatever you want (Regardless of what you want cut the minimum order will come to be $150, if materials and labor are in excess of that, the price is reflected to match).

Well... nevermind. I just double checked. The PS1k and PS2k don't have traction control based on wheel speed :(. They have boost control tables based on gear, but not wheel speed. :(. If that changes I may be interested in it.

[TitaniumTT]

You have means to do that plating? I would think the zinc would be prone to flaking due to press fit and what not.

I don't have the means to do that plating, but I know of a few co's that can, as does my buddy who is doing the cutting.

Nothing is a press fit either. The pressing is the rear wheel bearings in and out of the carriers to get the trigger wheel on the back of the flange.... thatnks for reminding me... gonna go grab a busted bearing and pull a diameter see if we can't make the wheel a little wider on the OD to avoid pressing the hub out of the bearing and destroying them. Pressing the bearing out in one piece as oppoed to pressing the hub out of the bearing. Anyone who has replaced the rear wheel bearings on an FC know's what I'm talking about.

I know of a waterjet company that does a $150 min order for whatever you want (Regardless of what you want cut the minimum order will come to be $150, if materials and labor are in excess of that, the price is reflected to match).

That was about what it was up around here. I did find one down south that would just cut whatever. I used him for the original order which was average $30/wheel. Lazer is faster, and thus cheaper.

Well... nevermind. I just double checked. The PS1k and PS2k don't have traction control based on wheel speed :(. They have boost control tables based on gear, but not wheel speed. :(. If that changes I may be interested in it.

Blows.... Motec 1 Haltech ZERO!! AHAHAHAHAHAHAA:fawk:

Race Logic? Not a fan of piggy backs but some poeple use and love that system

[My5ABaby]

Blows.... Motec 1 Haltech ZERO!! AHAHAHAHAHAHAA:fawk:

Options: Motec 1, Haltech 0
Budget: Motec 0, Haltech 293290384903284982034

[TitaniumTT]

Factory Support
Motec Infinity Squared Haltech ZERO

[vex]

Blows.... Motec 1 Haltech ZERO!! AHAHAHAHAHAHAA:fawk:

Race Logic? Not a fan of piggy backs but some poeple use and love that system
I think Haltech could be able to get traction control off wheel speed input without much issue (read that as nothing more than a software upgrade). They already have the inputs for it. All that would need to be done would be a spring-mass-damper (PID) to balance both the engine generated wheel speed and the vehicle actual speed by either ignition or fuel correction.

[TitaniumTT]

Yup yup.... should be pretty easy actually... but I'm not a software guyD... and I'm surprised that they don't have it. Now, DBW would be the shit..... can someone say FD build :D

[vex]

Dbw?

[Max777]

I'm gonna ask the big "what" to these.

I saw this and thought about the OEM wheel speed sensors/ trigger wheels. Why not just use those? Seeing they are already designed for the car, bolt right up and dont require modification?

I assume that the factory parts would be a little challenging to find, but didn't every FC with ABS come with wheel speed sensors?

[RICE RACING]

We have a good topic on this over on the Supra forums ;)

Race Logic TC for the win :001_005: http://www.supraforums.com/forum/showthread.php?619095-Racelogic-and-some-street-action

[TitaniumTT]

Booooooo, must register to view.... wanna share some highlights?

Anything the RL can do, the Motec can do as well..... just a little more complicated, and I like to be able to cut both fuel and spark.

[vex]

Unfortunately you need to register for that forum Rice.

[TitaniumTT]

I'm gonna ask the big "what" to these.

I saw this and thought about the OEM wheel speed sensors/ trigger wheels. Why not just use those? Seeing they are already designed for the car, bolt right up and dont require modification?

I assume that the factory parts would be a little challenging to find, but didn't every FC with ABS come with wheel speed sensors?

1) Not many FC's came with ABS
2) Going from memory the trigger wheels were $90 each (as opposed to $10)
3) Going from memory the sensors were $190 each (As opposed to $80 wired)
4) The factory sensors are a mag pickup, so to use with an ECU, you most likely need a converter - $118x2
5) IIRC 96 teeth per trigger wheel the the signal gets a little funky around 85 mph
6) Factory parts are nearly impossible to find used. I found the wheels just fine, sensors proved difficult as they like to seize into the hubs making removal difficult.
7) Custom is my way of life
8) TitaniumTT has spoken

Dbw?

Drive
By
Wire

[Max777]

Thanks for the 411. Aside from availability concerns, the signal clarity issue is something i was looking for as a concern. I think that I would be in on this as well even if it takes a while for me to make use of the parts.

[TitaniumTT]

OK... so here's the list

if you want to be removed post up. I'm expecting to order these in the next couple of days so I want to get this firmed up. Keep notice that prices will vary depending on the plating... but for this price if you're bitchin', you need a new Hobby

TitaniumTT - 2 full sets
Glennypoo - one of each
Tweiss - One set
Max777 - One set
Limbar - one set???

[Ender]

I don't think my Rtek could take advantage of these, but I want to understand how they work. Is the basic idea that if the sensors detect a difference in the speed between either rear wheel and the fronts on acceleration then the ECU will tell the boost controller to bring the boost down to reduce spin?

[RETed]

I'd like to make a suggestion on the design of the trigger wheel...

The current design shown in the pics makes the trigger wheel kinda delicate?
The "fins" could get bent due to debris being kicked up into the wheel?

I would run an "outer ring" just to "protect" the fins from getting bent.
Bent is bad, right? :)

This might increase the price of production due to the fact that (laser) cutters don't like to start and stop during each piece.


-Ted

[TitaniumTT]

:rofl: Yes, bent is bad...

I like the suggestion, but not sure if it's needed. The material is .3125" thick in the front, .25" in the rear, and the trigger surface is .125" thick. The things are pretty stout. The other advantage is they tuck inside the rotor hat so they're protected. Can't see it in the pics I posted becuase there's no rotor but they're way tucked in there. I've got the front wheels off, I'll try to get a pick today as I'm actually going to have a little time to work on my car... imagine that!

The other problem is going to be fitment. The depth of the tooth needs to be .7" deep as that's the diameter of the sensor. Nothing solid can be in front of the sensor otherwise it will never sense off the base or the outer ring. It would add another 1/4" to the diameter and I'm not sure if it would fit or not....

[TitaniumTT]

I don't think my Rtek could take advantage of these, but I want to understand how they work. Is the basic idea that if the sensors detect a difference in the speed between either rear wheel and the fronts on acceleration then the ECU will tell the boost controller to bring the boost down to reduce spin?

Nope, you're Rtek wouldn't be able to use these. You would need the Race Logic box to take advantage of these.

The RL box doesn't adjust the boost, nor does my ECU. I've got my boost control as boost vs gear and boost vs tps and boost vs trim switch and boost vs how aroused I am so adding the TC is really like adding a back-up. I can run a more aggressive boost curve and let the TC do it's thing when the ass step's out in the higher RPM's.

You're right though, the basic idea is to sense the difference in speed between the rolling wheels and the driven wheels, taking into account a difference in wheel speed in the rear when turning, and soft cutting the ignition. Brian is excited to see these things work

[TitaniumTT]

Good News/Bad News ladies

The rear trigger wheel will fit over the rear wheel bearing thus saving them. The bad news is they won't fit inside the stock rear rotor. They'll fit inside mine though :suspect:

Making the rears can be done with a drill press and a jigsaw and a 1/4" AL plate and some 10-24 bolts and nuts.

The fronts will still fit just fine.

Soooooo who wants in still? I'm assuming no one :rofl:

[tweiss3]

Any pictures of the problem on the rears? And couldn't you just make the teeth not so tall on the rears?

[TitaniumTT]

Negative, no pics of the problem, it's pretty simple really, the diameter of the trigger wheel is bigger than the diameter of the inside of the rotor.

The problem is the back of the flange, it has wheel studs on them. The wheel studs are 20mm's in diameter. The flange also has M8x1.25 on a 114.3x5 bolt pattern, the same pattern of the studs. So, in order to make a solid piece of steel that will bolt to the back of the flange, the base diameter of the trigger wheel needs to be (114.3/2) +10mm + enough meat to hold the teeth (I'm using .1875"). Then you need to add in the .7" required for the teeth. This result's in an OD that is just to big.

The REAL problem is the sensor is mounted on the wrong axis. The sensor's are designed to point at the axis of rotation, not with it, thus dictating the size of the teeth.

My original plan was to just use the drive flange and some spacers to push the wheel to where it needed to be. The problem with this, is again phyical size restraints. The bolt pattern is 114.3 or call it 57mm's. Subtract from that the 7-8mm's needed for a bolt and washer and now we're interfering with the 100mm boss that holds the bearing. So that doesn't work either.

The simplest was to do this, like I said, is with a .25" plate of AL cut in a circle, with 24 or 12 or even 5 evenly spaced holes drilled and tapped to 10-24, M6x1 or 1/4-20 or even M8x1.25. The you simply thread bolts into the plate from the wheel side and lock them down with nuts. This accomplishes the spacing to the sensor, and provides a signal. I've already built 2 of these because I was desperate for wheel speed signals before last years DGRR. Now that I've got the time and the space, I'm ditching those and opting for the lazer cut wheels because, well, they'll be more accurate, they're sexier, and I can in my application becuase I'm replacing the rear brakes. The CorkSport RZ FD brake upgrade MAY work, I don't know, you would need to call them and find out what the ID of that rotor is .25" up from them inside mounting surface.

Yet another option.... Using the originally cut trigger wheels that fit inside the rotor, bolt them to the flange intop of the back of the studs and get a thread in hall effect sensor or even a mag sensor. You would then need to have a bushing machined to fit into the stock sensor location and tapped for whatever the sensor threads are. This will allow you to keep threading the sensor into the brake rotor until it is at the proper clearance to the trigger wheel.

There's more than one way to skin a cat and I've been juggling this problem around my head for over a year now so I've got a bunch of different ways to solve it.

[tweiss3]

Good deal. I can clearly picture the issue. Its quite unfortunate, however shit happens. I guess based on that I would be forced to back out.

[TitaniumTT]

No worries, I figured most will. I'm going to keep the files so if anyone wanted them in the future, you'd be able to send the files to a waterjetter or lazer cutter and get the front's done at least. Rears are going to be a constant problem until I get a lathe.... damnit, I need machinery

[tweiss3]

what's the file type you used for these? Years down the road when i would need these, I have enough connections to figure something out. Thanks for the offer on getting these things mass produced for cheap.

[jrx13]

Just found this thread. I'm looking at adding wheel speed sensors to all four wheels for my datalogger. I see the last post where the rears won't work too well. Did you ever get the fronts made? I tried to come up with a way to mount a sensor in the front aimed at the back of the wheel studs, but they are too recessed.

I'd be interested in a set of your sensor rings for the fronts. Right now I'm trying to source abs sensor rings, but I see you tried that already too.