Rebuilding engine

[speedjunkie]

This isn't a whole car rebuild so I figured I'd just post this here.

I had the car on the dyno last Saturday and after only the second pull the car died as the rollers were slowing down, and it wouldn't start again. We tried quite a few things and just couldn't get it running again. We tried pull starting it and ended up just ripping off one of the oil coolers. Not happy. So we trailered the car back to C Springs (the dyno was north of Denver) and Thursday night I started pulling the engine.

Progress for the few hours of work Thursday night...
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f9/speedjunkie23/DSC03497.jpg
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Actually I went back and pulled out the 2-cycle oil reservoir that night too.

Last night I got cranking on it again about 8pm and finished around 1am. I cracked open my exhaust where the DP and MP come together and coolant starting dripping out. Hmmm, I guess the coolant seals are gone. That's what happens with the dyno owner asks you "hey, what's this?" when the temp gauge is reading around 240 or so and the red light is flashing. "Hmmm, I'm not sure, it does say 'water temp' and it's reading 240, what does that mean to you?" I'll never go back there. (I was not in the car by the way). For whatever reason my fans weren't coming on and they were set in the PFC to come on at 85*C I believe. Anyway, I haven't broken the engine apart yet, I'll be doing that today. But here is the progress made last night...
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f9/speedjunkie23/DSC03502.jpg
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f9/speedjunkie23/DSC03501.jpg
I thought I took more pics than that last night haha. I'll take more pics today and post up what I find.

[speedjunkie]

Progress so far today...
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f9/speedjunkie23/DSC03503.jpg

I believe my oil seals may be gone too because I had a TON of oil in the rear housing, and it looked like there was a little in the front too. I turned it over and oil poured out through the exhaust port as the rotor passed by. I checked all the apex seals and they looked good from what I could tell and they were still springy so I guess the springs are good too. We'll see what all is bad. I'm at a stopping point right now because the front bolt is being a MAJOR PITA to take off, so I'm gonna have to break out the impact tools finally.

[TitaniumTT]

Damn good progress Eric.... I haven't even finished cleaning my car out from The Epic Road Trip V1 :smilielol5:

The last front bolt that I took out was a factory original. My 500ft/lb gun wouldn't touch it. Had the flywheel stopper on, broke out the 3/4" breaker bar and a 5' pipe.... the best was at Glenns, we couldn't get the flywheel nut off. Had to use the Mazda factory tool and one of the legs off his hoist as the "Bitch Be Cool Bar" :rofl:

I wanna see pics. This is an odd failure for sure thus far :willy_nilly:

[Prodigy]

You could give the front bolt a little bit of heat, only thing is if you give it to much heat the thermal pellet springs will have a chance of getting ruined...

My suggestion would be put a little bit if heat of it, and replace it with pellets that a number of different companies that make the bypass the oil so it has oil all the time instead of just once warm



the rest of the teardown looks good so far... Waiting to see more pics... :D


J.

[GorillaRE]

I do not recommend using heat, in this instance. Flywheel stopper and a long breaker bar aka "cajun persuasion", end of story!

-J

[Prodigy]

You don't need much heat at all... If you give the 'ring' that mounts to the E shaft a little bit of heat it heats uP the locktite enough that the bold can be spun out by hand... Don't get the bold red hot, thats way too much, but just enough to heat up the red locktite..


J.

[TitaniumTT]

Odd, 2nd gens were blue locktite.

I agree though, heat is a last resort.

[vex]

My bolt required a butt load of heat. STupid thing wouldn't budge with a torque bar or a heavy impact gun.

[speedjunkie]

I just got back from eating some good Mongolian BBQ a little bit ago, feeling kinda lazy haha. I can't rest though, I gotta get this going. I'm gonna work on getting that bolt out tonight and get the rest of it pulled apart so I can take the pieces to Denver and get them spec'ed. More to come...with pics! Just for you Prodigy LOL.

[speedjunkie]

Wow, that thing really is not budging. It's ridiculous LOL. I guess I'll take the engine still assembled tomorrow and see if Matt has something to aid in getting it apart. I had a piece of angle iron with holes drilled in it to work on the flywheel but I let Simon borrow it a couple years ago and he says he still has it but I don't know where it is haha.

[speedjunkie]

I took the engine to my buddy Matt's house in Denver today. We actually got the front bolt off fairly easy, then the flywheel nut gave us a hard time but that came off not long after too.

Wow, this is going to be an expensive build.
-The bearing in the rear gear is completely shot (which I guess explains why the rear housing was filled with oil). More accurately, the engine tried to shit it out the back lol. And because of that...
-...the e-shaft is a little eaten up in that area as well (I got a replacement from Matt for $20).
-The rotor bearings are decent but I might replace them anyway.
-The front and rear irons are toast, groooved up beyond reuse.
-The center iron is still well within specs.
-The housings look OK but I still need to spec them. There is the usual scorching at the spark plug ports and there are slight chatter marks all the way around but they're still in decent shape. I still need to inspect them better though.
-The rotors are in still in good shape. I broke one side seal on the rear rotor, I guess it welded itself into the rotor, and I believe that explains why it sounded like a side seal was bad. These rotors were practically brand new when I built this engine in 08. They had only been run in a reman to break in the engine.
-The apex seals were in great shape, not a single problem that I could see. I might still switch to RA seals, not sure.
-Some of the corner seals were ground down a bit. These are Atkins solid corner seals and the lip on some of them were ground down a bit, that's what I mean.

The front and rear irons are the ones I had sent to Mazdatrix to get resurfaced but I did not nitride them afterwards. Would this be enough to make them wear so much faster than the center iron?

I'll post some pics tomorrow, I gotta get to bed for work tomorrow.

[diabolical1]

wow! that sucks! i await the photos.

[TitaniumTT]

Damn Eric, that sucks, but at least you didn't kill the housings and rotors, that would've made it really expensive.

What's the clearance like on the e-shaft to main bearings?
E-shaft to rotor bearings?
Any signs of the rotors contacting the side housings?

If you're in need of new main bearings, I'd go with the RX8 stuff. I'd even look at the RX8 e-shaft based on the clearances found on the new e-shaft you've acquired.

There are a few different theories regarding the re-nitrading. I just tore down an engine with 200k+ miles and the housings were some of the nicest I've ever seen. N/A ran premix almost all it's life. (rotors were damn near spotless too) However, seeing as how your un-resurfaced plate is good, and your resurfaced un-re-nitraded plates are fucked, I'd say that's a good arguement for re-nitrading.

Any chance you have someone local that could do a rockwell hardness test?

[speedjunkie]

Well I'm not absolutely sure yet that the housings aren't toast as well haha. But at first glance they look pretty good. I'll have to reassemble to see what the clearances are on all that. We were disassembling outside and it was cold, so we made it as fast as possible haha. I'll post pics of the rotors but I think they might have made contact with the housings in a couple spots, right at the corner seals. As I mentioned some of them were ground down a bit and you can see those corners of the rotor have some markings.

I thought about getting RX-8 parts but I wasn't sure what all I needed. I know the e-shaft is half a pound lighter but other than that I don't really know much about it all.

So you're saying the engine you tore down had been re-nitraded?

I have no idea if someone local can do the rockwell test, but I can find out.

[TitaniumTT]

I'm using an RX8 e-shaft, and front and rear stat gears that come with the bearings. Some say don't use the Renni shaft, but I only know of one failing. All my internals are also cryo treated as well.

The engine that I tore down was factory original. 200k miles, virtually no wear on anything. This was also an n/a engine though. I couldn't believe it really. West Marine generic TCW-3 oil mixed at 128:1 for most of it's life. SUPER clean internals. There were also 2 failed coolant seals. One in each rotor. I'm wondering if the coolant didn't stream clean the engine as he said he ran it for a few months until it got so bad it wouldn't start.

Either way, I've heard that the nitrating only lasts like 30k miles. I strongly disagree with this though.

I'd be curious to see the rotors, see if they made contact. I thought you said that the corner seals were worn down, not the rotors itself... my bad.

Question for ya though.... are you premixing as well? Or using just the RA MOP adapter? I'll be honest, first engine in this build was using just the RA adapter. There were signs of wear on the outsde edges of the rotors/seals. Now I run the RA adapter with the Idemitsu premix and I also put 1/4 oz per gallon of gas in the tank. The wear seems to be very minimal (and by minimal I mean there was virtually zero wear on the apex seals/housings/plates. The side seals I set to .0025" and they wore to .0038-.0051" after 10k miles and 100+ dyno pulls. Still < Mazda min spec :eek:) but more importantly it's more even across the seals. The reason I believe is the pre-mix in the tank will get to more areas of the combustion chamber than just the factory MOP system with the 2-stroke adapter. The factory system was a compromise. I do like the variable rate of it though. There's no need to soak the engine with oil when you're just cruising down the highway. Then again, when you're on decel and the injectors are off, you're not getting any oil at all. So, it's my opinion that the RA adapter with some pre-mix in the tank gets you as close to the best of both worlds as you can.... just my opinion/experience.

[speedjunkie]

Hmmm, maybe I'll check into the RX-8 stuff then anyway. Thanks for the heads up!
And one of my friends was suggesting cryo treating and shot peening the internals but I'd never heard of that before. Maybe I'll look into it for this time instead of nitrading, or maybe in addition to. I'd like to go all out on this one (I mean, short of getting the RB all aluminum engine lol), but I have to see what kind of funds I'm looking at and if I can get it all done before DGRR. As bad as I want to make DGRR this year, I don't want to compromise this build for it.

Well the corner seals I was talking about being ground down were pretty bad, and they were on the corners of the rotors that had some marking too but I never mentioned the rotors in the first post so no bad on you. I'll post up pics tonight so you can see what I mean. It looks like a file was dragged across them.

I'm not premixing, and I've only been running the OMP adapter for a short time, about 2 to 3 months or so. On a side note, I think I'm going to try to reroute my OMP lines this time so I can use the Mikuni pump, not sure how much difference that would make. Anyway, I've thought about premixing and I did it but only one time I think back in 08, but I've always worried about eventually clogging the fuel pump with the oil, or at least degrading flow. Although I don't like getting no oil during decel, that's not cool lol.

[speedjunkie]

As promised...pics of the carnage lol. Some of them are repeats, but with different light or at a different angle. When I was taking the pics they looked like crappy pics so I kept taking them. After looking at them on the computer they turned out pretty good.

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f9/speedjunkie23/DSC03534.jpg
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[speedjunkie]

And I only took pics of damage that I found. I hadn't noticed the apex seal grooves before, or the crack in the e-shaft.

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f9/speedjunkie23/DSC03524.jpg
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[speedjunkie]

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[speedjunkie]

So here is my list of needed parts so far...
-e-shaft
-front and rear irons
-new rear main bearing and possibly replace all other bearings while I'm at it
-at least one new side seal
-probably some new corner seals
-possibly switch to RA Classic or Super seals
-obviously new coolant seals and gaskets, and possibly oil control rings
-spec housings and possibly get replacements or get them resurfaced

I forgot I have my engine from 3 years ago that I still haven't torn down yet. I'm going to break into that to see if there is anything I can use on this build.

Any suggestions from you guys? What new parts should I get?

[TitaniumTT]

OUCH! Damn man, sorry to see that.

That shopping list looks good... personally unless I have to, I don't reuse side seals. Corner seals..... meh, sometimes.

If I were building this engine, giving that you're looking for ~500whp I would start off with an RX8 shaft and bearings/stat gears.
Those rotors don't look all that happy and they contacted the irons. So if your rotors in the other engine are useable I would send those off to get clearanced, balanced and cryo-treated along with the irons.
Then I'd use new side seals and springs, and I love the RA Super Seals. I dett'ed my engine at 10psi and 17:1 afrs in TX....

That's me though, what happened to the other engine? Spit a seal? You've got 3 months before you need to be on the rd ;)

[GorillaRE]

So here is my list of needed parts so far...
-e-shaft
-front and rear irons
-new rear main bearing and possibly replace all other bearings while I'm at it
-at least one new side seal
-probably some new corner seals
-possibly switch to RA Classic or Super seals
-obviously new coolant seals and gaskets, and possibly oil control rings
-spec housings and possibly get replacements or get them resurfaced

I forgot I have my engine from 3 years ago that I still haven't torn down yet. I'm going to break into that to see if there is anything I can use on this build.

Any suggestions from you guys? What new parts should I get?

Eric,

My suggestion to you would be: if the the other engine you have has minimal useable parts, buy a new engine from ray. The price break you get on buying the whole engine new instead of buying it part by part, is huge. Also, I don't care what anyone else says, RA seals are junk, ESPECIALLY the 3mm super seals. I DO NOT recommend them at all.

-J

[TitaniumTT]

Eric,

My suggestion to you would be: if the the other engine you have has minimal useable parts, buy a new engine from ray. The price break you get on buying the whole engine new instead of buying it part by part, is huge.

good point

Also, I don't care what anyone else says, RA seals are junk, ESPECIALLY the 3mm super seals. I DO NOT recommend them at all.

-J

Experience? Proof? What do you rec and WHY?

In mine they don't break, only warp... saved at LEAST one of my engines. As for chatter marks.... virtually none after 10k

[GorillaRE]

good point



Experience? Proof? What do you rec and WHY?

In mine they don't break, only warp... saved at LEAST one of my engines. As for chatter marks.... virtually none after 10k
Please understand, my post wasn't meant to contridict yours. I was writting it when yours was posted.

But, my "proof" is in the amount of RA supper seal'd engines I've disassembled in the past 12 years. I have YET to see one that would lead me to believe they are anything but junk, in the form of a "seal that wont break". Sure, they are tuff seals, but they will eat your engine from the inside out. Now, I will be honest when I say, that the 2mm varity usually don't do the severe damage. And in fact, may be considered by some to be "normal(ish)" wear marks. But the fact is, that both the 2mm and 3mm leave chatter marks every time.

I refuse to pay for, or suport a seal that does damage to your engine during its running life just because it's "un breakable".

-J

[TitaniumTT]

Please understand, my post wasn't meant to contridict yours. I was writting it when yours was posted.

Kinda figured based on the time, thought it was odd though that you're so against them.

But, my "proof" is in the amount of RA supper seal'd engines I've disassembled in the past 12 years. I have YET to see one that would lead me to believe they are anything but junk, in the form of a "seal that wont break". Sure, they are tuff seals, but they will eat your engine from the inside out. Now, I will be honest when I say, that the 2mm varity usually don't do the severe damage. And in fact, may be considered by some to be "normal(ish)" wear marks. But the fact is, that both the 2mm and 3mm leave chatter marks every time.

I refuse to pay for, or suport a seal that does damage to your engine during its running life just because it's "un breakable".

-J

Certainly you've got more experience with these seals than I do. In the roughly 15k miles that I've been using these seals they haven't really left any chatter marks on top of what was already there. I'm also running the stock OMP with an RA adapter and idemitsu plus 1/4oz per gallon in the tank so I'm probably over oiling the engine in certain situations, maybe that's helping? I won't argue that they leave chatter marks compared to the factory seals, but they have saved a few of my engines which is one of the reasons I run them. In my case they've really prolonged my engines.

So, what do you rec?

[GorillaRE]

Kinda figured based on the time, thought it was odd though that you're so against them.



Certainly you've got more experience with these seals than I do. In the roughly 15k miles that I've been using these seals they haven't really left any chatter marks on top of what was already there. I'm also running the stock OMP with an RA adapter and idemitsu plus 1/4oz per gallon in the tank so I'm probably over oiling the engine in certain situations, maybe that's helping? I won't argue that they leave chatter marks compared to the factory seals, but they have saved a few of my engines which is one of the reasons I run them. In my case they've really prolonged my engines.

So, what do you rec?
Yes, the extra oiling is most certainly helping! And I don't have an issue with the idea of "over oiling" :D! It does more good than bad in these little two strokes of ours!

I recommend NRS 1 piece for NA and ALS 2 piece for boosted aplications. I also dont mind atkins cryo'd 2 piece seals either.

-J

[speedjunkie]

Thanks for the input guys!

Brian- I thought the rotors looked a little beat but still salvageable, maybe not? I really didn't want to get new ones since those were so new when I put them in HAHA. Whatever the case is, I don't want to do that to another set of new-ish rotors. I'm not sure what happened on the last engine. I parked it one night and jacked it up to get to the flywheel to make sure all the bolts were still tight because I heard some chattering while driving, and I turned the flywheel in the process. The next morning I started it for work and it sounded like crap. I thought it was a stuck seal because I'd experienced that not long before so I kept driving to work and it only got worse so I took it home and couldn't get it running again after that. So far both of my failures have been less than exciting HAHA, but I like it that way as long as costs stay down lol.

I thought about getting a whole new rebuild kit anyway, assuming I could afford it haha, just to make sure I was starting fresh with all new seals again. I'm assuming I'll have to get a few corner seals at the very least though, I still haven't posted pics of the damaged ones. This is going to get expensive fast if I'm sending stuff off to get cryo treated and balanced haha. And a friend of mine said Glenn Weaver tweaked an RX-8 e-shaft so bad the engine wouldn't run, but that's the only failure story I've heard so far.

Jonathan- How much is a new engine from Ray? I can't imagine having that much money laying around...that is of course unless I get the homebuyer's tax credit or whatever LOL. Maybe I can get a new engine and have it ported, cryo'd and all that and put back together with whatever seals I want lol. I like the solid corner seals, I don't know why, I guess just because it's one piece instead of two and having the little rubber plug in there lol. I've heard people say before that the RA seals are so tough they eat the housings and that's why I had given up on them for a while, but I've heard more people recently professing their love for them so I figured I'd give them a shot. I'd rather stay away from 3mm seals regardless though.

I'm actually getting excited about tearing the other engine down lol. It's been almost 4 years since it's run. I never knew what was wrong with it but I always intended on having it built and standing by for when this engine went. It sure does sneak up on you LOL.

[TitaniumTT]

Those rotors look like they'd be great candidates for some 3mm seals, but that's just looking at them through the pics, it's hard to tell without the apex seals/feeler gauges in hand. Sounds kinda like the old engine suffered the same type of fate that the current engine suffered.... sucks

Glenn did tweak a Renni shaft. It is the only one that I know of as well. There are rumors that Mazda didn't use the same tempering as they did in the REW shaft which is why it bends and stays bent. Which is what happened to Glenn. The REW shaft is tempered so when it does flex slightly, it returns to it's original position more so than the Renni shaft will. I know there are a bunch of higher hp guys running them, I can't tell you if it's been cryo treated though. I'm running one, but mine along with the rest of my engine is cryo-treated. Don't know if this is what's making the difference. It's all kinda hear say though, I've never seen someone say definitely whether or not its weaker or not. My buddy has a 1986 M1009 CUCV with the 6.2L diesel. He had the thing for maybe a thousand miles before accelerating up a hill and snapping the crankshaft. Bought a boneyard pull out and just got the thing running last night. Looking at the break, it kinda looks like a shitty casting.... have you ever seen one of those 6.2L's snap a crank like that?

Johnathan - I'm all up for some experimenting with reasonably priced seals in a boosted engine. How much experience do you have long term with the ALS seals? Like tearing down a 50k engine and not seeing any chatter marks? How do they compare in weight to the OEM or the RA seals?

[speedjunkie]

I was thinking the same thing with 3mm seals LOL. Although I'd heard before that they don't seal as well as 2mm seals. Like you said though, everything is heresay. I take everything I hear with a grain of salt but it also makes it very difficult to make a decision lol. All I can go off of is my own experience and who I choose to believe about this or that, ya know? But that's life I guess.

I figure I'll break the old engine open this weekend and see what's usable, if anything. I just called Ray and a new engine is $3800 with core. Yikes. I can't afford that right now. That would take me at least until April to buy that and then I still wouldn't be ready, and that cannot happen LOL.

I've never worked with the M1009 so I couldn't tell you. Sounds like a crap shoot though, like everything else haha.

I think I might stick with the REW e-shaft just in case.

How much does cryo-treating cost generally?

[TitaniumTT]

Yup, but how many 1009's are/were in service? I don't think the army would send a vechile into war when it has a history of snapping cranks. Yet this one did lazily accelerating up a hill on the highway..... sooooo.... yeah. It was low on oil but there were no signs of wear on the bearings. Weird weird shit. Need to take some pics and post them up for the engineer types to look at. Silly boinger engines :rofl:

I forgot what I paid, but it was damn cheap to get everything done. I also have the advantage of being able to drive over to Dave's, drop it off, and pick it up a week or so later. I'd give him a buzz. Speed1/KDR http://www.kdrotary.com/

[speedjunkie]

No I hear what you're saying, I'd imagine they would be sturdy and for one to snap while there is hardly any force applied is just kooky. That's what I meant when I said it was a crap shoot, so I guess I used the wrong term haha. Yeah, boinger engines, who needs 'em?! lol

What all did you get done? The irons, housings, rotors and e-shaft or was there more?

[TitaniumTT]

Ah, yeah, I see what ya mean... I was likening it to Glenns experience with the 8 shaft.... wierd shit for sure, I guess, I dunno.... he's really opposed to it, as I can understand. I just wish someone could say definitevly one way or another.

[TitaniumTT]

Derr.....
I had the irons, stat gears/bearings, rotors w/bearings, and e-shaft done

[chickenwafer]

I was honestly expecting the carnage to be worse from your description on phone man! But yeah that bearing is TOAST! Housings look slightly worse than I anticipated.

I agree with those rotors being 3mm candidates. Although I have heard too that they seal worse than 2mm? I am not the expert here, sorry.

[speedjunkie]

Well, after taking a closer look at the housings last night, I believe it would be best to change the title of this thread from rebuilding engine to buying completely different engine LOL. There are small cracks next to each spark plug port. So I'm either looking for a good engine with low miles, large streetport, preferrably using the seals I'm looking for...or an engine that needs a rebuild that still has good usable parts.

I haven't torn down my old engine yet, I plan on doing that tonight. Maybe it will still be usable haha.

[speedjunkie]

So I tore down the old engine tonight, the engine that was in the car when I bought it. HOLY CRAP this thing is almost flawless! It's unreal how nice it is. The irons are amazingly smooth, the housings have slight chatter marks and the front housing has a small crack next to the leading spark plug port. There was one rubber insert missing from one of the corner seals on one of the rotors. On each rotor one oil ring stuck to the iron as I removed the parts, not sure how much that means, if anything. Other than that this thing is amazing! I'm so happy haha.
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[speedjunkie]

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[Dazed and Rotarded]

I gotta rip my rew apart tonight in hopes of making it to the gap..lol as far as I know it just lost coolant seal's but we'll see.. lol doubt I'm that lucky.. i'd contact goopey for the re-finishing of the housing if it was me.. for 125 plus shipping , you can't beat it.. good luck bro and hope to see you there!

[speedjunkie]

Thanks! Good luck with your results too. Even though I have no idea what happened to this engine to make it go, I realize now that I'd much rather lose a coolant seal than an apex seal LOL.

I've been thinking about sending it to Goopy but the crack goes pretty deep so I doubt they'd be able to save it and I'm worried that their resurfacing might have the same effects of resurfacing an iron and not re-nitrading it, which is what I did to my irons and they are unusable now. Regardless I think the crack is too deep anyway and I'll need a new(er) housing.

[Dazed and Rotarded]

Welp.. a few hours later and 5 stitches it is indeed a coolant seal.. and thank god.. but I did learn a lesson on how shape the side of a housing is lol.. now to get them ordered and installed and we're on our way kido's! That suck's about your housing.. atleast you have that spare laying around..lol could be worse.

[Dazed and Rotarded]

Sorry I doubled up lol

[speedjunkie]

So you cut yourself breaking the engine open? That sucks!

Yeah it's unfortunate. I'm not sure which spare you're talking about, I don't have spares laying around LOL.

[Dazed and Rotarded]

My bad man.. I was thinking you had a spare short block for some reason..and yes lol I cut it to the bone.. I was bleeding like i'd been drinkin , oh well. Live and learn.

[speedjunkie]

No the good engine I just took apart is the spare short block LOL, and the housings in the one that just came out of the car are trashed too.

Holy crap man, well I'm glad you got it fixed up.

[Sideo]

My bad man.. I was thinking you had a spare short block for some reason..and yes lol I cut it to the bone.. I was bleeding like i'd been drinkin , oh well. Live and learn.


I litterally cannot work on the fd without injuring myself. few weeks ago trying to break some spot welds i totally missed with the hammer and hit my finger still hurts to use it.

[speedjunkie]

Yep, I'm right there with you. I was replacing the brakes on my Civic this weekend and hit my finger with a rubber mallet and took skin off again. Sometimes I think wet paper is more durable than my skin lol. I can't even imagine hitting my finger with an actual hammer, yikes.

And a few weeks ago while taking off my rear bumper I scraped my pinky finger against some metal and ripped off all the skin on the outside of my finger. That took quite a while to heal.