S5 stock maniold, external dump

[sen2two]

Here's a sneak peak at this for now. I have been seeing here, and other places, where people want to fix the whole boost creep, and boost dropping off before peak RPM. One way is to get an upgraded Garrett internal gate that is very similar to our stock wastegates, and port the wastegate areas on the turbine housing. This works well for a lightly modded car, but some still need more. Especially if the motor is ported, running higher compression, or runnning a hybrid turbo.

Now it has been done a few times on the much larger S4 manifold. But with the very small compact S5 manifold, and divided runners, making an external dump far more complicated. A few people have also kept the stock wastegate area but separated the down pipe area and wastegate area for an external dump. This still poses a problem with releasing enough exhaust pressure through the holes in the turbine housing. Making creep and drop off less noticeable, but not getting rid of it.

Here is what i am going to do to fix the problem. A one inch hole in each runner, meeting at one point with a 38mm external wastegate.

Pics do much better than words.

(I'll update after it's all welded up and finished, I got side tracked with another project and didn't get t finish)


Holes were done with a bridgeport mill. Now I know not many people here will have access to a machine like that. but its not hard to drill a hole with a hand drill and port it out with a die grinder.

http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk253/bboynero/front%20clip%20RHD/CIMG0023.jpg

http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk253/bboynero/front%20clip%20RHD/CIMG0024.jpg





Got some pipe and turned it down slightly in a lathe to fit very snuggly in the holes. I'm all about tight fits, ;)



http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk253/bboynero/front%20clip%20RHD/CIMG0027.jpg




http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk253/bboynero/front%20clip%20RHD/CIMG0028.jpg





Cut some pipe and mocked it up. A little trimming and grinding, and this will all fit nicely. There's actually a pretty good amount of room below the manifold to come up with your own design. Just take some measurements and get to cutting!




http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk253/bboynero/front%20clip%20RHD/CIMG0033.jpg


http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk253/bboynero/front%20clip%20RHD/CIMG0035.jpg

[soldave]

Is a 38mm wastegate gonna be big enough? I'm going for a 50mm to be on the safe side.

[sen2two]

38mm is plenty large enough. My motor is completely factory. Hasn't even been rebuilt yet... Most people port the stock wastegate to 35mm.

I am not a fan of overly large wastegates. Here's why... In theory of course, but I would rather be safe than sorry in this case.

whether you have a large wastegate or small wastegate, they still open at the same speed. And that speed is quick. When you hit your set PSI and your overly large wastegate opens, it releases a large amount of exhaust pressure quickly. Most of the time TOO quickly. Causing exhaust pressure drop and possibly a drop in boost momentarily slamming it shut again only to open quickly again. You might not notice this, but I'm sure the motor does.

[Phoenix7]

have you done any amount of porting to maximize the exhaust flow in the stock manifold?

[sen2two]

Started on it, But havnt finished it just yet. I'll finish the port work after i finish the wastegate job.

I will be doing some port/flow work the the rear turbine housing also.

This will not go onto the car just yet though. I want to hit 12's on the untouched factory turbo first. I'm about ready for that though. So hopefully this will go on soon enough.

[Phoenix7]

keep it up man, I can't wait see what results/improvements you achieve.

[TitaniumTT]

Lemme start off by saying that this is pretty damn cool. Good job on the work so far.

38mm is plenty large enough. My motor is completely factory. Hasn't even been rebuilt yet... Most people port the stock wastegate to 35mm.

I am not a fan of overly large wastegates. Here's why... In theory of course, but I would rather be safe than sorry in this case.

whether you have a large wastegate or small wastegate, they still open at the same speed. And that speed is quick. When you hit your set PSI and your overly large wastegate opens, it releases a large amount of exhaust pressure quickly. Most of the time TOO quickly. Causing exhaust pressure drop and possibly a drop in boost momentarily slamming it shut again only to open quickly again. You might not notice this, but I'm sure the motor does.

Instead of guessing, I would datalog it. MAP and EMAP as well as WG duty. If you're running any sort of ems or electronic boost controler, you sould be able to tune it out.

[need RX7]

very interesting. :icon_tup:

[RETed]

You've just destroying the whole reason why Mazda redid the turbo exhaust manifold and turbine section.

Seriously, you guys need to leave alone these "rare" parts and go mess with S4 stuff.


-Ted

[soldave]

What's rare in what he's done?

[Phoenix7]

You've just destroying the whole reason why Mazda redid the turbo exhaust manifold and turbine section.

Seriously, you guys need to leave alone these "rare" parts and go mess with S4 stuff.


-Ted
there is no way to get better flow out of the S5 manifold?

[jerd_hambone]

You've just destroying the whole reason why Mazda redid the turbo exhaust manifold and turbine section.

Seriously, you guys need to leave alone these "rare" parts and go mess with S4 stuff.


-Ted

Hey now, just because Mazda spent a million dollars redesigning something, doesn't mean it is working at it's peak. He's not trying to mess with what Mazda did exactly, he's more on the lines of trying to make his car as reliable as possible. One good boost spike can do all sorts of damage.

Relax there ol' buddy!

[RETed]

I'm talking about the "independent twin scroll" function of the whole system...

Anyone who has messed with both the S4 and S5 turbo systems knows the turbos produce power differently.
The S5 has a smoother power delivery, because it spools quicker and more linear due to the independent twin scroll.
The S4 will lag a bit and then punch you in the gut when the boost hits around 4kRPM or a little bit after that.

This has nothing to do with boost creep.
I've ported S4 and S5 turbos before, and I've never had a problem with boost creep after porting the wastegate passages.
In fact, I ported the S5 turbo so well, it ended up producing only 5psi of boost with unmolested wastegate vacuum lines, even with no cats.
(We were able to get the boost to hit 10psi with an A'PEXi AVC-R afterwards.)
Oh, and this wasn't with the stock compressor section - it was running an H-trim compressor side.

The S5 turbo parts are not easy to acquire in the states.
In fact, there's a demand for those parts for those who know about it's advantages.
There's a bazillion S4 turbos parts available, and it's easier to stuff an external wastegate on them a whole lot easier.
In the end, you're doing the same thing - remove the independent twin scroll (well, the S4 never had it to begin with) and run an overpriced and oversized external wastegate which, IMO, is not necessary if you know how to port the stock wastegates efficiently.

In the end, I call this kinda project "showing off" just to document the resources you have on hand.


-Ted

[sen2two]

Or maybe I post thing's up from time to time to impress you, only to be shot down time and time again. You have broken my hear one to many times...

Seriously man, is there any thing you do like, that hasnt come from you?

[Phoenix7]

I always like to tell people to "Read between the lines...listen to what is being said, not how it's being said." Ted comes off rather harshly some of the time but you know he means well even if it doesn't read like that. He doesn't believe the external WG is MORE effective than a properly posted twin-scroll system on our setup and therefore this mod seems redundant to him, especially on the S5.

I would take all the input you've received so far, see what benefits you can achieve and then post your findings...Ted knows what's up when it comes to these cars, their components and sometimes it takes real numbers to change his mind. As you continue to research these mods you'll be able to show what benefits you have achieved or perhaps you'll reinforce what ted has been saying all along. You won't really know/satisfy your curiosity until you finish.

[RETed]

Or maybe I post thing's up from time to time to impress you, only to be shot down time and time again. You have broken my hear one to many times...

Seriously man, is there any thing you do like, that hasnt come from you?

You must be one of those too stubborn to listen to other people's criticism.

Seriously...
You plan is a royal waste of time and money for most people.
Please go read Corky Bell's "Maximum Boost".
Your new wastegate pipe entries are very inefficient - 90-degrees perpendicular to the actual exhaust gas flow.
(If you had gone with the S4 turbo exhaust manifold, there is already an angle built into it, and you would've had a more efficient and easier time doing this same procedure.)
Corky Bell also talks about how keeping exhaust flow between the two turbine passages can be advantageous.

If you think I'm just spewing sh*t out of my ass, then so be it.
If you think I have some personal beef with you, then so be it.
(Seriously, it's nothing personal.)
I'm trying to correct some of your misconceptions of what you're trying to do and warn others of the shortcomings.
If you don't have the openmindedness (is that a word?) to see that, well, then I wish you good luck with your project...


-Ted

[sen2two]

I'm not here trying to break records. I'm just tying to have fun with my hobby. I have read a lot of stuff you written in the past, and learned from it. The way I learn is by doing. There's to much reading and not doing these days with a forum for everything known to man. Experience is the best teacher.

I did not do butt loads of research or map out my design for best-of results. I used stuff i had on hand and made it work.

No i don't think you have some personal beef with me.
No i don't think you your just spewing shit out of your ass.

No it's not a word, it's two words - open mindedness

Basically what i am saying is, Give me criticism yes, but damn... Don't always aim to hurt my feelings, I'm emotional. lol

[sen2two]

All done... Fits nicely. I will not be able to "test" the car until a week from now. I will be in Costa Rica for 7 days! Little vacation time for me...

I'll update once I'm back...

http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk253/bboynero/front%20clip%20RHD/ExternaldumponS5manifoldh-1.jpg

http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk253/bboynero/front%20clip%20RHD/ExternaldumponS5manifoldg-1.jpg

[sen2two]

Update:

I finally installed this on my car. I can hold boost all the way with no problem now. Another problem I was having was with my 2-step launch control. The car would not build any boost even at 6k rpm. Just tested this and easily build boost off the line.

Proving further that the stock wastegate door in the turbine housing is being forced open prematurely by exhaust pressure. Porting the wastegate can just make this even worse. EBC's will NOT fix this, at all.


:icon_tup:

[Max777]

Here's the Russian's POV:

with all the money it takes to port te stock wastegate, buy OEM turbo gaskets ($180) and have BNR rebuild your 20yo journal bearing turbine (the S4 stage 4 rebuild is $950)

After all this, you still have a journal bearing turbo, really old design technology, and a cast iron turbo that sits extremely close to the intake manifold.

Why not just get a tubular cast or welded manifold, and a brand new ball bearing turbo that you KNOW will deliver power and be reliable. The price difference is not much, it's new parts...

The twin scroll twins from the FD I can understand, but the FC's stock turbo is just such a piece of junk it seems.

[88turboii]

I have to agree with ted.. it would be better to do this with a S4 manifold, since you are negating the affects of the S5 independent twin scroll. the exhaust pulses mix at your wastgate connection. maybe if you use dual wastegates, one for each line?

[sen2two]

Here's the Russian's POV:

with all the money it takes to port te stock wastegate, buy OEM turbo gaskets ($180) and have BNR rebuild your 20yo journal bearing turbine (the S4 stage 4 rebuild is $950)

After all this, you still have a journal bearing turbo, really old design technology, and a cast iron turbo that sits extremely close to the intake manifold.

Why not just get a tubular cast or welded manifold, and a brand new ball bearing turbo that you KNOW will deliver power and be reliable. The price difference is not much, it's new parts...

The twin scroll twins from the FD I can understand, but the FC's stock turbo is just such a piece of junk it seems.


My main reason? I want to run 12.99 (12.50's is a dream goal) or better on the stock turbo, motor, ECU, top mount, ect... Open my hood, and it still looks pretty stock. But now that I got this set-up, I can run 12's for sure. I'll be at the track real soon to make that a whole truth, not an assumption.

Another thing is, the cost of this set-up for me was basically nothing. Just stuff i had laying around. Also, I have built hybrid turbos from the stock turbo for under 200 bucks that are capable of 400whp on a TII. Aftermarket manifolds are easily 200 bucks for a used one, and a nice ball bearing turbo is 1000 and up easily. And you still have to have a custom downpipe, oil feed/return, ect... Get's pricey and complicated for the average person. Hybrid turbos are just so easy, and unless your trying to set records, anything more is just overkill.

I have to agree with ted.. it would be better to do this with a S4 manifold, since you are negating the affects of the S5 independent twin scroll. the exhaust pulses mix at your wastgate connection. maybe if you use dual wastegates, one for each line?

The s4 manifold would have been easier to do from a fabrication standpoint, but the outcome is still the same. It works, and it works flawlessly. I know this because I have done about 20 pulls on it so far and tested the 2-step numerous times.

Just because something is easier, does not mean it's better. It's usually the other way around. I recommend this to anyone who is having problems holding boost to your shiftpoint or having boost spikes. Forget about porting the wastegate... add an external wastegate to your stock manifold and you'll see how happy you are with it for yourself.

[RETed]

I noticed you're using one of those piece-of-shit Turbonetics wastegates...
Keep an eye on the sleeve that isolates the rod actuator from the diaphram housing.
It tends to get loose and jam the wastegate.
Easy fix is to stake the sleeve into the housing so it doesn't get loose.

Good luck,


-Ted

[sen2two]

update!


I made a new downpipe to clear the wastegate a little better. Then I was like "man, all this piping for what". It dosnt really make the car any quieter. So I dropped the entire exhaust and just welded to muffler to where the downpipe would normally end. Barely any louder. And dropped even more weight off the car.

The car sounds much deeper and better to me. Others say the same thing that have seen it in person. I'm guessing the manifold porting added to the better sound at least a little. The car spools twice as fast and I can even here the turbo spooling through the exhaust now. Sounds dope... But what beats that easily, is the sound of the wastegate when that big bitch open up! lol... scream crazy. And best of all, It holds boost easily anywhere I want it to all the way to whatever RPM I feel like taking it to... dopeness.

Before this, I could go through 1st, 2nd, and 3rd gear with out barely breaking the tires loose on the street. Now there's no hope for the tires in 1st, same for second. And third the tires are still smoking. I even tried rolling at about 45mph and ease in on the throttle, still lights the tires up! And these are 255 wide tires.... So did this help? Fuck yeah, like you wouldnt believe...

Oh ,and by the way, I havnt tuned the Apex-i NEO at all. Nothing. All of this with ZERO tuning. Now that I have a wideband back and have a second o2 bung in the downpipe, I can actually tune the car. It's only getting better.

Pics of everything installed!



http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk253/bboynero/front%20clip%20RHD/SAM_0409.jpg

http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk253/bboynero/front%20clip%20RHD/SAM_0407.jpg

http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk253/bboynero/front%20clip%20RHD/SAM_0406.jpg

http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk253/bboynero/front%20clip%20RHD/SAM_0405.jpg

http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk253/bboynero/front%20clip%20RHD/SAM_0411.jpg

http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk253/bboynero/front%20clip%20RHD/SAM_0404.jpg

http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk253/bboynero/front%20clip%20RHD/SAM_0416.jpg

[1Revvin7]

I've done a few S4 t2 manifolds with a rerouted Tial 38mm, perfect boost control...

[rx71king]

your neighbor must love you .:cuss:....looks cool anyway:icon_tup:

[sen2two]

The car really isn't loud, so it dosnt really bother the neighbors. It's really one of the quietest Rx7's I have ever owned. This was done by spending 2 months searching for the perfect muffler. It's the only one I use now.

[rx71king]

no way...good to no. i live near a dunkin donuts . i have to drive two extre blocks to avoid the rollers.

[RETed]

Hushpower?

The reason why exhaust are piped back toward the rear is carbon monoxide poisoning.
Please be careful if you're going to keep the exhaust like that permanently.


-Ted

[sen2two]

Yes, it's a Hushpower.

I do not start it in the garage ever and it has a turn down on it. Many V8 cars have it the same way. Thanks for caring though! It must be a Christmas thing...

[TheDriver216]

would it be possible to get a video clip for the sound?... i like the muffler style and how does it hold up to the heat?