County Code/Ordinance Violation HELP NEEDED ASAP

landon303 · 06-21-2014, 07:42 AM

First off not sure if I'm in the right section or not, but, whatever.

Basically, we just got ROYALLY FUCKED by our town. Here's the copied context from 7 club. Thanks.

Quick run down, most of the regulars already know this.. My wife & I have a collecting/hoarding problem/gift with these cars, and over 4-5 years have collected 28 cars. 6 first gens, 21 second, 1 Saturn SL2. We're in Pasco county, Florida, on 2.5 acres of land zoned "Estate Residential". This basically means we have property, but it's not far enough away from civilation/other home owners to be considered agricultural. Even then I think we'd be fucked anyway.

I was UNAWARE this could happen to us. Was told by numerous people we were fine, since we were out of the way of most people. These are people who I thought were knowledgeable, including even our realtor. That was our first requirement when purchasing a house, was the intent to store "a lot" of RX7s there, and that we not have any problems come about. Even our next door neighbor who's lived here 10 years said it wasn't a legal problem. And for that matter, we only have a neighbor on one side of us. The other 2 sides are forest, & behind us is a big block wall. I'm not blaming anybody but my self for not looking into it more/buying & being attached to all this bullshit, and the world for creating rules such as this. So I'd like to keep this thread free of any "oh you should retaliate by doing...." or "I be it was ... etc". I'm really just looking for solutions as I have ONLY 30 DAYS TO FIX THIS

Per our warning notice, and I can post any/all info that may help too, here's what it says:

Inoperative/Unlicensed Vehicles 106-54

Facts constituting the probable cause: multiple unlicensed & inoperative vehicles on property

Necessary Correction action to comply: License repair & make road worthy all inoperative & unlicensed vehicles

or store in an enclosed structure

or remove from property & dispose of properly.

If not corrected, there will be a $130 fine PER car, PLUS failure to comply within 30 days will result in the issuance of a citation to appear in court & may include fines up to $500 PER offense PLUS court costs. There will be a re-inspection at the 30 day mark.

I mean, this is as fucked up as it gets!!! But again just keep this thread to ADVICE ONLY. I don't need a bunch of people telling me how much it sucks, or how unfair etc.. I already know that.

Now for some facts. Of the 28 cars, 5 are registered. This is the Saturn, an 87 sport, 87 racecar, 88 T2 vert, & an 89 vert. So that already brings the removal needed count down to 22. Now, we have a steel garage that will enclose 3. So that's 19 cars that need to have action taken against them. The rest is where I'm unsure.

We have an enclosed porch that we could quickly mod to fit 3 cars on. I don't know if this will "count" as an enclosed structure. I also don't know if it will cause further problems such as being dropped from house insurance due to potential hazards. There's also a pole barn that's OPEN, but could be quickly enclosed to seal up another 6, or 12 if we built lifts/support structure to stack the cars. The barn came with the property, and was built WITHOUT permit. We're OK to have it there, since it was already there. But since it isn't actually up to code or anything like that, I don't know if they would grant us the permit to do the work to allow that to enclose the cars. We had also thought of doing it as cheaply as possible by just using great big tarps on it. A friend a county over got the same citing as me, and put up a temporary building of tarp/conduit framing which got him thru inspection. I called the code section of the GVT office, AT LEAST SIX times yesterday, and NO ONE could tell me shit!!! Was even put through to the guy that wrote the violation FOUR TIMES and he never once returned my call, which all went to voice mail & all had messages left. I mean this is seriously fucked. They want me to fix this, yet, I can't even get a hold of anyone to spec out my best option OF FIXING IT???

Lastly, there's a 2 car car port capable of housing 2 more cars, but, it's open as well so we're back to the same "is tarp OK" dilemma that exists for the pole barn.

So, worst case, I have 19 cars that need to GO in 30 days. They're not all shit kick cars either. There's an 84k mile 10th AE. A 1 owner ALL ORIGINAL down to the batt box lid 101K GTUs. 2 sports. 2 T2s. Other various not-so-desirable but not seen any longer cars that would break my heart to get rid of. FFS, my goal for the past 10 years (I'm only 26) was to get a good paying job so I could own a bunch of RX7s. This didn't just happen, these cars really do mean a LOT to me, much more so than most, hell even more so than a lot of people on this forum I'm sure.

ALSO! A good 5 or so vehicles are stored here for friends, so those will all quickly vanish making the lot size look shrunken a tiny bit, atleast. From some advice, we're HOPING & CROSSING FINGERS that by making "progress" by clearing those ones out right away, & making an actual effort, they'll grant us an extension longer than 30 god damn days.

Back to the 19 cars, a friend has offered to tow em up to his house for me w/ his truck & trailer, for the cost of fuel ($40 each car, he's a good ways away. Also a mazda guy). Obviously we're not gonna unload him 19 cars, we'd have to sell off what's not as valuable/loved to me, and have him take up the rest. In the mean time, our plan was to pull permits to build the biggest, yet cheapest & hurricane-proof garage, until we can get everything back home & into the garage. But this is where I can't decide.. This is asinine, taking cars OFF MY PROPERTY to build a building only to bring them back?? At what point is the financial burden & stress NOT worth it? I would like to eventually become self employed, and having to "raise" 27 kids (we do not have any human kids, and do not want/will not have any) along the way sure as shit isn't helping that.

At the same time, look how scarce these cars have become. You hardly ever see them in salvage yards any longer. Here's a stash big enough plus spare parts, for her & I to drive RX7s for atleast our whole lifetime. And it's VANISHING. So for that point, and yes we worked hard as hell to amass this, I kinda want to keep them. I'm literally stuck between 2 decisions that are time sensitve and I can't choose which.

That all said, if anyone can help & I know it's a long read I would totally appreciate it. More than you think.

Here's some pictures of the heard for ref.

the 2 car carport as mentioned above. saturn, 79, rebecca's beloved sapphire blue 88 vert (repainted, plans to fix etc etc etc, that may now never even fucking happen), rebeccas DD 87 sport

Shot looking toward garage. 83 & 89 in garage. Black vert reg'd. red T2 shell, hard top man rack base shell, race car w/ coils cage etc 85 S w/ GSLSE suspension, more bases, sports undercover etc

2 GSLs an 83 & 84, both in those HOT 80s color combos: gold w/ tan(mustard) leather, beige w/ brown. Both all original down to stock radios. Gold only a 76k 2 owner car. 84K 10AE, T2 megasquirted vert, 88 SE w/ T2 swap, 5 lug, aero, louvs. GTUs.

Another shot of barn. Pardon the finger I was blocking a mondo glare from the sun

More junk. Some friends cars (FD, bmw, truck. 2 FCs)

Again thank you to anyone who can offer any advice, & more so, advice that saves our asses.

Landon & Rebecca

TL;DR: young crazy married couple find a passion together of mazda rx7s. Collect 27 rotary cars, about 75% bought to keep out of the junkyard/saved, only to have the god damn county order them all removed. Only have 30 days to work with it, Currently unable to obtain ANY additional info from county. Seeking advice what to do, do NOT want stray comments/advice (kill em all, sign up neighbors for gay porno mags, fuck the GVT & don't do anything, etc). Only looking for ADVICE.

Thanks

GySgtFrank · 06-21-2014, 08:16 AM

Check the county ordinance to find out what their definition of "enclosed" means. It should either be published on line or if not you'll have to go down to the courthouse. Unfortunately you're going to have to get them inside and out of sight to keep the busybodies satisfied. (or register them all, but that would get real expensive).

If it's not defined, then tarps around the buildings may get you by for a while or at least give you a point of argument in front of the judge anyway. You would want to hard cover them eventually to protect them from hail, etc. Cheap metal sheathing should work for most of the buildings in your pictures.

As long as they're out of sight I would think you would be fine.

I would assume that buying a license as a salvage yard (or you can call it a vehicle rescue facility if the term salvage yard hurts too much

) and putting up a fence to meet those requirements would not be possible in your zoning area? It may be worth checking on as there is no way a salvage yard could have all of their vehicles under cover.

edit: Whatever you can't get under cover right away, you may have to rent some of those storage spaces at a local storage facility. At least until you can get covered storage put up on your place or get some of them sold so they don't go to the crusher. Sadly it's going to cost you a bit to fix this and ignoring the problem is not possible. If it isn't fixed not only will they fine the p*** out of you, but the county will eventually come in and haul them off to be crushed whether you agree to it or not. I've seen counties do it before.

Pete_89T2 · 06-21-2014, 10:07 AM

First thing you need do is learn everything possible regarding the ordinance they are charging you against, and research all prior cases citing the same ordinance. Goal here is to understand WHAT you're being charged with, research how judges ruled on similar cases and if there were any legal precedents set that you can work in your favor. Depending on how sharp & resourceful you are, you can do most of this without a lawyer - this stuff is largely on the public record. My best guess is this ordinance is all about $ and collecting registration fees.

For example does the "Inoperative/Unlicensed Vehicles" language in the 106-54 ordinance you've been cited for mean it's a violation for the cars to be both "inoperative" AND "unlicensed", or is it "inoperative" OR "unlicensed"? How the law is written could possibly reduce the scope of the problem that you have to deal with...

Another thing worth looking into is seeing if you can get a variance or waiver on your property zoning - e.g., getting them to allow you to effectively re-zone your property from "estate residential" to something else (e.g., used car dealership lot?) that would allow you to keep the cars. That might have unintended consequences though, such as changing the value of your property or jacking up your taxes.

Edit: To pile on to what Gunny suggested, the definition of the word "enclosed" in the ordinance could be key. If there is no clear definition of "enclosed", you might have legal grounds to cover the cars with tarps, or putting up a fence that blocks the view. Of course, there may be other zoning & permit issues associated with putting up fencing, so don't forget to look into that before taking action.

rx7 vinnie · 06-21-2014, 11:34 AM

Looks like heaven to me.

RETed · 06-21-2014, 01:58 PM

I am going to be moving this to the (Florida) regional subforum, since I think this is more appropriate...

Let me add my 2 cents...

"Enclosed" usually means 4 walls and a roof.
Whether your officials recognize if the structure is "rigid" (i.e. wood, metal, etc.) or "pliant" (i.e. plastic sheeting, tarp, tent, canopy, etc.) would be coded in their books or up to the interpretation of the official.

You're basically operating a "junkyard."
One of the BIGGEST concerns is chemicals / fluids leakage into the ground.
USUALLY, if you can prove that all fuel / gasoline / coolant / oil / fluid have been removed and drained, that usually satisfies all the EPA bullshit.
That also basically changes a "non-op vehicle" into a pile of car parts.
Whether your officials will agree to this or not...is up to them.
This would be your best case scenario, IMO.
Sometimes, officials are also worried about fire hazards, so proof that you can contain a possible fire problem will also help your case - this usually means removing tires on top of all the flammable fluids...

Best suggestion is to go talk to the officials who cited you.
Only they can give you the answers you're looking for...
Keep in mind, that in most cases, they are usually willing to work with you to remedy this problem - it's called negotiating.
Keep in mind the above points, and you might get lucky.
But...don't hold your breath that they will budge; every once in a while you're going to run into stubborn assholes who will want to throw the book at you - that's life.

Good luck!

-Ted

speedjunkie · 06-21-2014, 05:24 PM

I agree with Pete, but first even before what he said, I'd find temporary homes for them in the chance that they're assholes that won't budge like Ted said. But if you do what Pete said you might be able to find a loophole or figure out some way to keep them after that. Good luck.

Didn't this used to be known as a FREE country? I mean, it's YOUR land.

chibikougan · 06-21-2014, 07:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by speedjunkie

I agree with Pete, but first even before what he said, I'd find temporary homes for them in the chance that they're assholes that won't budge like Ted said. But if you do what Pete said you might be able to find a loophole or figure out some way to keep them after that. Good luck.

Didn't this used to be known as a FREE country? I mean, it's YOUR land.

No it's not free and you cannot own land you pay taxes on sadly.

Government has no money so they make ordinances with huge penalties and fines.

Or as I call it thievery. Not that it is anything new.

06-21-2014, 07:42 AM	#1
landon303 sparton frame Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: clearwater iTrader: (0) Posts: 11 Rep Power: 0	County Code/Ordinance Violation HELP NEEDED ASAP First off not sure if I'm in the right section or not, but, whatever. Basically, we just got ROYALLY FUCKED by our town. Here's the copied context from 7 club. Thanks. Quick run down, most of the regulars already know this.. My wife & I have a collecting/hoarding problem/gift with these cars, and over 4-5 years have collected 28 cars. 6 first gens, 21 second, 1 Saturn SL2. We're in Pasco county, Florida, on 2.5 acres of land zoned "Estate Residential". This basically means we have property, but it's not far enough away from civilation/other home owners to be considered agricultural. Even then I think we'd be fucked anyway. I was UNAWARE this could happen to us. Was told by numerous people we were fine, since we were out of the way of most people. These are people who I thought were knowledgeable, including even our realtor. That was our first requirement when purchasing a house, was the intent to store "a lot" of RX7s there, and that we not have any problems come about. Even our next door neighbor who's lived here 10 years said it wasn't a legal problem. And for that matter, we only have a neighbor on one side of us. The other 2 sides are forest, & behind us is a big block wall. I'm not blaming anybody but my self for not looking into it more/buying & being attached to all this bullshit, and the world for creating rules such as this. So I'd like to keep this thread free of any "oh you should retaliate by doing...." or "I be it was ... etc". I'm really just looking for solutions as I have ONLY 30 DAYS TO FIX THIS Per our warning notice, and I can post any/all info that may help too, here's what it says: Inoperative/Unlicensed Vehicles 106-54 Facts constituting the probable cause: multiple unlicensed & inoperative vehicles on property Necessary Correction action to comply: License repair & make road worthy all inoperative & unlicensed vehicles or store in an enclosed structure or remove from property & dispose of properly. If not corrected, there will be a $130 fine PER car, PLUS failure to comply within 30 days will result in the issuance of a citation to appear in court & may include fines up to $500 PER offense PLUS court costs. There will be a re-inspection at the 30 day mark. I mean, this is as fucked up as it gets!!! But again just keep this thread to ADVICE ONLY. I don't need a bunch of people telling me how much it sucks, or how unfair etc.. I already know that. Now for some facts. Of the 28 cars, 5 are registered. This is the Saturn, an 87 sport, 87 racecar, 88 T2 vert, & an 89 vert. So that already brings the removal needed count down to 22. Now, we have a steel garage that will enclose 3. So that's 19 cars that need to have action taken against them. The rest is where I'm unsure. We have an enclosed porch that we could quickly mod to fit 3 cars on. I don't know if this will "count" as an enclosed structure. I also don't know if it will cause further problems such as being dropped from house insurance due to potential hazards. There's also a pole barn that's OPEN, but could be quickly enclosed to seal up another 6, or 12 if we built lifts/support structure to stack the cars. The barn came with the property, and was built WITHOUT permit. We're OK to have it there, since it was already there. But since it isn't actually up to code or anything like that, I don't know if they would grant us the permit to do the work to allow that to enclose the cars. We had also thought of doing it as cheaply as possible by just using great big tarps on it. A friend a county over got the same citing as me, and put up a temporary building of tarp/conduit framing which got him thru inspection. I called the code section of the GVT office, AT LEAST SIX times yesterday, and NO ONE could tell me shit!!! Was even put through to the guy that wrote the violation FOUR TIMES and he never once returned my call, which all went to voice mail & all had messages left. I mean this is seriously fucked. They want me to fix this, yet, I can't even get a hold of anyone to spec out my best option OF FIXING IT??? Lastly, there's a 2 car car port capable of housing 2 more cars, but, it's open as well so we're back to the same "is tarp OK" dilemma that exists for the pole barn. So, worst case, I have 19 cars that need to GO in 30 days. They're not all shit kick cars either. There's an 84k mile 10th AE. A 1 owner ALL ORIGINAL down to the batt box lid 101K GTUs. 2 sports. 2 T2s. Other various not-so-desirable but not seen any longer cars that would break my heart to get rid of. FFS, my goal for the past 10 years (I'm only 26) was to get a good paying job so I could own a bunch of RX7s. This didn't just happen, these cars really do mean a LOT to me, much more so than most, hell even more so than a lot of people on this forum I'm sure. ALSO! A good 5 or so vehicles are stored here for friends, so those will all quickly vanish making the lot size look shrunken a tiny bit, atleast. From some advice, we're HOPING & CROSSING FINGERS that by making "progress" by clearing those ones out right away, & making an actual effort, they'll grant us an extension longer than 30 god damn days. Back to the 19 cars, a friend has offered to tow em up to his house for me w/ his truck & trailer, for the cost of fuel ($40 each car, he's a good ways away. Also a mazda guy). Obviously we're not gonna unload him 19 cars, we'd have to sell off what's not as valuable/loved to me, and have him take up the rest. In the mean time, our plan was to pull permits to build the biggest, yet cheapest & hurricane-proof garage, until we can get everything back home & into the garage. But this is where I can't decide.. This is asinine, taking cars OFF MY PROPERTY to build a building only to bring them back?? At what point is the financial burden & stress NOT worth it? I would like to eventually become self employed, and having to "raise" 27 kids (we do not have any human kids, and do not want/will not have any) along the way sure as shit isn't helping that. At the same time, look how scarce these cars have become. You hardly ever see them in salvage yards any longer. Here's a stash big enough plus spare parts, for her & I to drive RX7s for atleast our whole lifetime. And it's VANISHING. So for that point, and yes we worked hard as hell to amass this, I kinda want to keep them. I'm literally stuck between 2 decisions that are time sensitve and I can't choose which. That all said, if anyone can help & I know it's a long read I would totally appreciate it. More than you think. Here's some pictures of the heard for ref. the 2 car carport as mentioned above. saturn, 79, rebecca's beloved sapphire blue 88 vert (repainted, plans to fix etc etc etc, that may now never even fucking happen), rebeccas DD 87 sport Shot looking toward garage. 83 & 89 in garage. Black vert reg'd. red T2 shell, hard top man rack base shell, race car w/ coils cage etc 85 S w/ GSLSE suspension, more bases, sports undercover etc 2 GSLs an 83 & 84, both in those HOT 80s color combos: gold w/ tan(mustard) leather, beige w/ brown. Both all original down to stock radios. Gold only a 76k 2 owner car. 84K 10AE, T2 megasquirted vert, 88 SE w/ T2 swap, 5 lug, aero, louvs. GTUs. Another shot of barn. Pardon the finger I was blocking a mondo glare from the sun More junk. Some friends cars (FD, bmw, truck. 2 FCs) Again thank you to anyone who can offer any advice, & more so, advice that saves our asses. Landon & Rebecca TL;DR: young crazy married couple find a passion together of mazda rx7s. Collect 27 rotary cars, about 75% bought to keep out of the junkyard/saved, only to have the god damn county order them all removed. Only have 30 days to work with it, Currently unable to obtain ANY additional info from county. Seeking advice what to do, do NOT want stray comments/advice (kill em all, sign up neighbors for gay porno mags, fuck the GVT & don't do anything, etc). Only looking for ADVICE. Thanks

06-21-2014, 08:16 AM	#2
GySgtFrank Professional Stick Poker Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: Stafford, Ks. iTrader: (0) Posts: 1,005 Rep Power: 15	Check the county ordinance to find out what their definition of "enclosed" means. It should either be published on line or if not you'll have to go down to the courthouse. Unfortunately you're going to have to get them inside and out of sight to keep the busybodies satisfied. (or register them all, but that would get real expensive). If it's not defined, then tarps around the buildings may get you by for a while or at least give you a point of argument in front of the judge anyway. You would want to hard cover them eventually to protect them from hail, etc. Cheap metal sheathing should work for most of the buildings in your pictures. As long as they're out of sight I would think you would be fine. I would assume that buying a license as a salvage yard (or you can call it a vehicle rescue facility if the term salvage yard hurts too much ) and putting up a fence to meet those requirements would not be possible in your zoning area? It may be worth checking on as there is no way a salvage yard could have all of their vehicles under cover. edit: Whatever you can't get under cover right away, you may have to rent some of those storage spaces at a local storage facility. At least until you can get covered storage put up on your place or get some of them sold so they don't go to the crusher. Sadly it's going to cost you a bit to fix this and ignoring the problem is not possible. If it isn't fixed not only will they fine the p*** out of you, but the county will eventually come in and haul them off to be crushed whether you agree to it or not. I've seen counties do it before. __________________ 1979 SA22C (parts of one anyway) http://rotarycarclub.com/rotary_foru...ad.php?t=15585 1975 MG Midget (building) http://rotarycarclub.com/rotary_foru...ad.php?t=18681 1988 N/A SE model FC, dead stock and less than 85k on the clock. This one actually runs, so I don't fuck with it. Last edited by GySgtFrank; 06-21-2014 at 08:46 AM..

06-21-2014, 10:07 AM	#3
Pete_89T2 Lifetime Rotorhead Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Elkton, MD iTrader: (1) Posts: 874 Rep Power: 15	First thing you need do is learn everything possible regarding the ordinance they are charging you against, and research all prior cases citing the same ordinance. Goal here is to understand WHAT you're being charged with, research how judges ruled on similar cases and if there were any legal precedents set that you can work in your favor. Depending on how sharp & resourceful you are, you can do most of this without a lawyer - this stuff is largely on the public record. My best guess is this ordinance is all about $ and collecting registration fees. For example does the "Inoperative/Unlicensed Vehicles" language in the 106-54 ordinance you've been cited for mean it's a violation for the cars to be both "inoperative" AND "unlicensed", or is it "inoperative" OR "unlicensed"? How the law is written could possibly reduce the scope of the problem that you have to deal with... Another thing worth looking into is seeing if you can get a variance or waiver on your property zoning - e.g., getting them to allow you to effectively re-zone your property from "estate residential" to something else (e.g., used car dealership lot?) that would allow you to keep the cars. That might have unintended consequences though, such as changing the value of your property or jacking up your taxes. Edit: To pile on to what Gunny suggested, the definition of the word "enclosed" in the ordinance could be key. If there is no clear definition of "enclosed", you might have legal grounds to cover the cars with tarps, or putting up a fence that blocks the view. Of course, there may be other zoning & permit issues associated with putting up fencing, so don't forget to look into that before taking action. Last edited by Pete_89T2; 06-21-2014 at 12:04 PM..

06-21-2014, 11:34 AM	#4
rx7 vinnie I SEE DEAD PEOPLE Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: nashville, tn (antioch) iTrader: (0) Posts: 743 Rep Power: 17	Looks like heaven to me. __________________ VIN-AUTO Rotary list of Fails below: 86 mazda rx7 csp 61 N/A= because RACECAR 87 mazda rx7 t2 with 13b-re cosmo GT42= FKN RUNS!!! 03 Dodge Viper SRT-10 Vert 06 dodge ram 2500 Megacab turbo Cummins=puller 16 MB ML350

06-21-2014, 05:24 PM	#6
speedjunkie RCC Loves Me Not You Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Colorado Springs, CO iTrader: (1) Posts: 2,089 Rep Power: 19	I agree with Pete, but first even before what he said, I'd find temporary homes for them in the chance that they're assholes that won't budge like Ted said. But if you do what Pete said you might be able to find a loophole or figure out some way to keep them after that. Good luck. Didn't this used to be known as a FREE country? I mean, it's YOUR land.