Rotary Engine Failure due to Side Rotor/Side Rotor Housing Clearance..

[glenrx7]

Would you expect coke to give Pepsi it recipe? Come its the same basic thing it soda why would they not want there specifics to be know by everyone??


Oh and Phill "track record" means I do have stats that prove what we do works out of over 100 engines I have two fail, and those were arguable not my issues.

Phil make point man you have so far just teaken shots at me, this gets ingonore by me so give me something to understand please

[Herblenny]

Originally Posted by glenrx7

Would you expect coke to give Pepsi it recipe? Come its the same basic thing it soda why would they not want there specifics to be know by everyone??


Oh and Phill "track record" means I do have stats that prove what we do works out of over 100 engines I have two fail, and those were arguable not my issues.

LOL! I guess it continues on..

I don't know where in the world you still think I'm asking you for your specs... I've repeated over and over and I don't want to know your stinking specifics of your "recipe". LOL! Seriously, I don't care!!!

Second, I didn't ask how many engine you build failed. BUT I asked how many engine you broke down, that was street driven, that needed a rebuilt because of the clearance issue. I'm assuming you get your customer's engines and then you break it down and inspect??? So, I'm asking you how many of those were failure due to clearance issues!! Because if HUGE number of engines are failed due to that specific issues than I will admit that my statement about clearance is NOT Necessary is wrong.. But so far, that's not the case by numbers given by my builder and BNR...

And yes, I'm sure you and 99% of the builders out there will say the same thing that its not your fault that the engine failed.. So, no need to state that..

Originally Posted by glenrx7

Phil make point man you have so far just teaken shots at me, this gets ingonore by me so give me something to understand please

LMAO! I can't even understand what you just said above.. make what point?? and only shots I might of made is based on your statements that were somewhat false and misleading. And I have no clue what, "ingonore" is...

But my argument at this point is, is clearancing the rotor for street driven engine necessary?? As you disagreed that when I stated that its 'NOT necessary'. And the point I'm trying to make (if you want me to make some sort of point at this point) is that its not as there are thousands of engines that has stock clearance (NOT AZRR's special proprietary clearancing but with Mazda spec) and have lasted. Just trying to make the point that its not necessary and that statistic of number of engines you have broken down with this issue will resolve the point at hand...

So, did I make my point?? Hope that's clear to you.

[glenrx7]

Phil Chucky is right lets take this to pm or leave it be...Do what you do and I will do what I do

[Herblenny]

If you wish Glen, but I'm just trying to clarify why clearancing the rotor for street engine is not necessary as you disagreed in the past.. Just wanted to know how many you've seen with this specific failure. But, we'll take it to PM if you wish.

[glenrx7]

I really cant tell you a number....honesty Phil it been a long time, i have been tearing engines down for a really long time I would say 20 out of 100 had contact after going big single. The issue is that the rotors being clearence may not have been the issue there were so many issues, broken apex seal, carbon lock, detonation etc.

Now this is why it comes to a professional opinion, you may get away with it you may not...I dont want to risked it. If their was a big risk in having more clearence i would worry but there is not. So the risk out ways not doing, but again this is my professional opinion. Phil your guy may never have had an issue so in his professional opinion he say its not worth it. I was not saying anything about his skills I dont know the guy but I do know I believe in it.

I built an engine with no clearence (stock rotors) it blew up two reasons one the rotors hit the side plates and it had looked liek the shaft deformed., Rebuilt it not changing anything but clearnce the rotors and it is still make power today that was years ago.

[Herblenny]

Originally Posted by glenrx7

I really cant tell you a number....honesty Phil it been a long time, i have been tearing engines down for a really long time I would say 20 out of 100 had contact after going big single. The issue is that the rotors being clearence may not have been the issue there were so many issues, broken apex seal, carbon lock, detonation etc.

OK, So really long time as in 25+ years?? J/K..

So you still didn't quite answered my question.. close.. but not quite. My question was, how many street driven as in NOT HIGH HP motor or high REV motor that failed due to side clearancing of the rotor. By the way, I never disagreed that clearancing the rotor for HIGH HP or HIGH Rev motors

[Herblenny]

Well, i've decided to use my contacts and call/email several other builders in the country to get some information about this..

One builder in LA (Louisiana) stated to me that he has not seen any engine he took apart that was failure due to clearancing the rotor. He also stated that its not necessary for street engine thats not high HP or high Rev.

Another builder in NE stated to me, "the only time i have seen failures of that nature (rotor hitting side housing) is from a spun bearing due to lack of oil.
for the builds you describe (less than 400rwhp and 8k rpm) we do not clearance the rotors as you describe."
**Description I gave is the RB quote regarding clearancing rotors**

Next builder I've contact is someone most of us here knows...
He stated this..

I take apart a lot of FD and FC engines, probably over 500 since I started in 2001.

These are stock (built in japan when the car was new), mazda remans, and a few outside builds as well.

I do not see any FAILURES as a result of rotor to iron clearance. What I do see is scraping and rubbing on the side tips of the rotor, especially on FD engines for some reason. By this I mean, the material above the corner seal, usually shows signs of rubbing the iron walls. This is from shaft flex at high rpm, which lets the rotor move out of parallel alignment with the iron. Oddly, the FD rotors weigh exactly the same as the 89-91 turbo and 89-91 non turbo rotors, however the FC engines rarely exhibit this problem. I am not sure if this is because FD owners are more abusive in general toward their engines and stay at or near redline more often, or if it is due to the power output of the engine being somewhat higher. I lean toward the former, since 50-100bhp should not be significant enough to cause shaft flex in itself, the consistent use of high rpm would have to do it. Note that the 89-91 non turbo engine actually has a higher redline and rev limiter than the FD, but I still rarely see the symptoms of rubbing on those rotors, while almost EVERY fd engine I take apart has it. I still think that is because FD drivers are more prone to high rpm driving than FC drivers.

This "damage" never adversely affects the rotor, corner seal, or iron. The only time I see genuine damage to either, is when an oiling issue has arisen, such as oil starvation, a spun bearing, etc. that lets the rotor come into much more significant contact with the iron.

I'm waiting few other builder responses to this topic.

[glenrx7]

Ok =, Phil you have demestrated that you have something against me ...

Everythign i say gets ripped up ...It been a long time or me 10+ years...Sorry if i was not spesific on such an important part of my statement

So I am done with it....

Hey Chucky ...porting is comign soon this should be fun...Please dont post anymore of the picture here

[Bryan@BNR]

Glen,

Dont sweat it buddy. Keep up the good work on the engines. I have seen a few of the ARR vids and the cars run well...

Bryan@BNR

[Herblenny]

Originally Posted by glenrx7

Ok =, Phil you have demestrated that you have something against me ...

Everythign i say gets ripped up ...It been a long time or me 10+ years...Sorry if i was not spesific on such an important part of my statement

LOL! No I just wanted to make a point and to your disagreement regarding clearancing is 'not necessary', which means NOT required, or essential on street application motors. I asked you multiple times to tell me how many engines you've broke down that were street driven engine (low HP, below 8000RPM) failed because of so called oem clearance of the rotor and you dodged the questions. Just as you been trying to make your point why, I been trying to make a point that its not.. Just trying to reason with you... maybe its my pitbull mentality?? who knows..

Bottomline, people could make their decision based on facts. Which I've taken time to ask builders who have seen many many engine internals with issues. If say 5 builders with total of 1000+ engines they torned down and sees less than 5 that failed on street engine because of clearance issue (less than 1%), than its NOT Necessary for street driven car.... Point in which you disagreed and wanted to make my point with bit of research and numbers... And not just telling you I came up with it using my "proprietary" method of determining its not necessary..

Again, No hard feelings... seriously!

[Herblenny]

Originally Posted by Bryan@BNR

Glen,

Dont sweat it buddy. Keep up the good work on the engines. I have seen a few of the ARR vids and the cars run well...

Bryan@BNR

I agree with Bryan, Don't sweat it. I'll admit that you do do good work on the engines. Not discrediting you on that... as I stated before, if I would need balancing and 'clearancing' the rotors, I would consider you.. Unless you are mad at me and if I send you my rotating assembly you'll fuck it up on purpose

But, Regarding disagreement at topic, I like to make sure my point is made during the debate... Ulitmately, people will decide based on points both of us made

[Herblenny]

I just got off the phone with one of DGRR supporting vendor and a rotary specialist with 30 years of experience, Brian from Rotorsports Racing.

When I asked Brian about this specific kind of failure (side rotor clearance), he said he has seen ZERO on a street driven car. Not only that, he has seen very very few from race engines he has built over the years.

[Herblenny]

Got off the phone with yet Another builder... a well known 3 rotor shop in OH also confirmed with me regarding clearancing the rotor.

They also have NOT seen any motors they torn down that's street engine (less 400HP/less 8500RPM) that failed because of side rotor/side housing clearancing.

[sk8world]

call BDC and ask his advice....LOL....LOL....


Ok, we have to remove Phil's aviator pic as its becoming him.............

See ya Friday! And if you get a chance to see Brian (BNR) he has going to have you bring me a TII diff if you have room...

[Herblenny]

Originally Posted by sk8world

call BDC and ask his advice....LOL....LOL....


Ok, we have to remove Phil's aviator pic as its becoming him.............

See ya Friday! And if you get a chance to see Brian (BNR) he has going to have you bring me a TII diff if you have room...

LOL!

I know.. Maybe I am what BDC mentioned Dang.. My apologies!

I'll tell Stephen as he's heading to BNR to take the wheels off... then bringing it back to me.. So, maybe he could bring the diff also.


I've also talked to another builder in FL and he just stated to me that he also never seen street or built motor that had issues with side of rotor to iron clearance issue...

Yes, I know... Its getting old... But to be a valid, high number of sampling is needed...