Ignition Thoughts/Ideas/Recommendations

[rx71king]

i will look into them.. thanks for the choices...

[RICE RACING]

Originally Posted by TitaniumTT

I can't find a price on the Autronic systems, but within a few minutes I found the Dynateck setup for $300 and the coils run $160 for the pair, so for $620 you can have a CDI system. That equates to about $200-$300 more than a top of the line inductive setup. I'd rock that if someone can prove a VERY stable, stock like idle and a few more ponies up top

I guess Autronic doesn't need to sell any systems becuase I couldn't find anything online... I will admit I gave up easy

I used to have video's up of mine on idle .........

I can tell you in my own car looking over data logs (I know I am obsessive about that shit almost as much as you!) that there is on same boost, same AFR, same timing about a 0.2 second advantage on the CDI to the inductive (HKS DLI, new Mazda coils, new NGK leads) going from 90-140kmh in 3rd gear. The biggest difference is the ability to tune the way you want, not the way the ignition system will tolerate.

In my own case I can set much more water injection, a bigger spark plug gap, a richer fuel mixture too, and have more rpm after the A typical power band peak for a stock 13B-REW port. This is solely down to the increase ign capacity as we have already spoken about.

I just came back from a drive now, and the car is going the best it ever has gone, I refitted my CDI coil on plug system as I had reached the practical limit posed by the inductive. Far from being placebo the raw hard data shows its better, and the idle on the same AFR and timing is sweeter (remember nothing changed bar the ign system). It is great being able to test this crap, not so much the hard labor pulling half the car apart to fit the various parts but the driving and testing after and then being able to freely test new tuning theory in practice is what its all about, and I can only reiterate a fully developed proven CDI package will free you up to make your tuning safer and at the same time make much more power as well

[RETed]

Hey TTT, are you running some kinda funky split on idle?
I've never had problems with my Crane Cams HI-6 on stock leadings on an FC - trailings are stock.
My experience supports RR's comments, spot on.

I was running that funky "reverse split" ignition timing once, and that's when the idle was not stable.
Sure, you can run slightly leaner on reverse split, but it wasn't worth the hassle IMO.


-Ted

[RICE RACING]

Here is the set up for people who don't know, these pics are old but its just a bit tidier than this now.

RR COP
3 x CDI system
Leading wasted spark (one CDI per plug), one twin channel CDI for trailing, need one CDI per Leading as though twin channel there is not enough charge time for full capacity on leading with both channels firing together.

[TitaniumTT]

Me likey.... but why the COP? Are leads really losing that much current such that it canbe measured?

[TitaniumTT]

Originally Posted by RETed

Hey TTT, are you running some kinda funky split on idle?
I've never had problems with my Crane Cams HI-6 on stock leadings on an FC - trailings are stock.
My experience supports RR's comments, spot on.

I was running that funky "reverse split" ignition timing once, and that's when the idle was not stable.
Sure, you can run slightly leaner on reverse split, but it wasn't worth the hassle IMO.


-Ted

Hey Ted, nope, running a basae timing of 5* that ramps up REALLY quick to 25*. The 5* is in the 1000-1100 range, and 35-55 kpa. The split was a striaght 10* across the board. It since changed after my trip to CA where a buddy blended his cruise map with my map. So now it's 5* @ idle (I haven't noticed a difference) 0* by 1500 and -4* in the cruise ranges. Helped the mpg as I was able to lean the hell out of the fuel map and run 1.05L while cruising. Brought EGT's down as well which is what we were trying to do.

With the ECU you were using, were you not able to adjust the split based on load or rpms? Was it constant?

[RICE RACING]

Originally Posted by TitaniumTT

Me likey.... but why the COP? Are leads really losing that much current such that it canbe measured?

*A brand new R7420 spark plug as around 2.4kOhms resistance.
*A brand new NGK leading "short" spark plug lead has ............... 2.4kOhms resistance.

COP = no resistance

There is less ign "noise" on a well designed COP boot as well.
It is tricky designing the COP system right and to be reliable (re contacts) and in our case rigidly mounted and easy to take on and off, without hating yourself and life ........ I have all those bugs worked out and it's fully sweet now

Yes TTT it is worth the effort, for you it would be easy to make and allot of fun fun fun

[RICE RACING]

The ignition is the single most important aspect in a high powered car, it makes the difference between you telling the motor what to do V's it dictating to you how and when and what it wants to run, I simply copied this basic fact from the old WW2 boys who were using magneto and huge current and energy ignitions to run massive water to fuel ratio's, once I figured out that key element/restriction of normal ways of thinking today a whole new world in terms of power and reliability were open to me.

Here is a picture of the CDI & COP systems current and burn time as measured on my pecoscope, it is very powerful !



This is picoscope testing of my CDI system, for current flow, primary voltage, secondary burn time, number of spark restrikes.... works well even a newb with electricity like me can figure it out

Burn time is roughly 420us or .4 milliseconds and there is 6 separate restrikes at 1000rpm over roughly 5 milliseconds per cycle. System pulls about 25 amps of first spark and 13 amps for the restrike sparks.

[RICE RACING]

http://www.jetav8r.com/Vision/Ignition/CDI.html

This is a good read "for the internet"

[NoDOHC]

Due to budget constraints, I have not purchased any fancy CDI systems (hoping that someone gives me one...)

I did split the cost of a set of Junkyard LS2 coils with a friend, making my part of the expense $75.00

I haven't taken the car through it's paces yet (still in tuning phase - as I made the switch to an E8 at the same time and it handles the injector staging differently) but the low-end smoothness and cold starting are significantly improved over the stock ignition. Both ignition systems start very well warm, but on a 10 degree day, the engine had trouble starting with stock ignition, now it cranks a few times, catches a couple times and then starts.

Obviously I will be going to the dyno sometime in the near future (as soon as enough snow melts that I can get out of the garage), I will see if the ignition change picked me up any power. I need to get a baseline before I install the Defined Autoworks headers anyway.

[RICE RACING]

The ultimate ign set up, This is the DON!

Here is pics of the RR COP CD system mounted up (CD boxes next to battery on custom holder), wiring harness and COP's installed.

Few Grasshoppers & bugs from extensive real world testing on the front bumper! they stand no chance at "moderate" speeds













Covered 1600km in last 2 weeks big boost bro! CD makes a massive difference over the HKS DLI and stock coils/leads combo.

[RICE RACING]

WINNING!

See my build thread, the CD ignition rocks the box of best anal scene 2008 Charlie Sheen Goddess style yo.



Much better performance
Far bigger tuning window
Much safer settings allowed by the CD

[vex]

So... Just curious on what your thoughts are on these coils (they're not CDI):

http://www.034motorsport.com/ignitio...ver-p-277.html

[NoDOHC]

They list ignition energy in Volts (should be in Joules).

I would want to know what ignition energy they will supply.

Ignition energy: Energy is the area under the power vs. time curve. LS2 Coils are about 120-130 mJ

The voltage is comparable to the LS2 coils (they make about 75kV).

LS2 coils are cheap. (I paid $75.00 for 4)

Off the top of my head, I see no advantage between these coils and LS2 coils other than it appears that these would take a lower dwell time (about 4 ms).

The LS2 coils like 5.5 ms. = 6 ms cycle time = 10,000 rpm max.

4 ms = 4.5 ms cycle time = 13,333 rpm max.

Obviously, CDI can rev much higher, this is it's biggest advantage over inductive.

[TitaniumTT]

Originally Posted by vex

So... Just curious on what your thoughts are on these coils (they're not CDI):

http://www.034motorsport.com/ignitio...ver-p-277.html

I tested those coils back to back with my Bosch coils

They picked up 4hp when she was running pig ass nasty stank rich.

Where she was running .85-9L, they didn't pick up anything.

When she was running .75L and the where the Bosch coils where skipping, those coils picked up the ponies and didn't mis-fire

Originally Posted by NoDOHC

They list ignition energy in Volts (should be in Joules).

I would want to know what ignition energy they will supply.

Ignition energy: Energy is the area under the power vs. time curve. LS2 Coils are about 120-130 mJ

The voltage is comparable to the LS2 coils (they make about 75kV).

LS2 coils are cheap. (I paid $75.00 for 4)

Off the top of my head, I see no advantage between these coils and LS2 coils other than it appears that these would take a lower dwell time (about 4 ms).

The LS2 coils like 5.5 ms. = 6 ms cycle time = 10,000 rpm max.

4 ms = 4.5 ms cycle time = 13,333 rpm max.

Obviously, CDI can rev much higher, this is it's biggest advantage over inductive.

I ran those coils @ 3.5ms and had no issues. Running them with that many ms is high in the duty cycle, all that really does is overheat the coils. The LS2 coils have been known to auto-ignite and pop engines when cranking. I still plan on testing the LS2 and LS1 coils against my Bosch coils. I suspect they'll loose a little power compared to the Bosch and the QuickSilver coils that Vex mentioned