FC3S Murray's never ending build.

FC3S Murray · 03-31-2010, 10:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TitaniumTT

pssssh, if you drove to DGRRX at least you'd have your engine broken in sometime during 2010

F you brian

LOL!

***TitaniumTT*** · 03-31-2010, 10:11 PM

yeah yeah.... I'm the idiot that would drive 1-2 hundred miles a night around the state just to break in an engine in a week to make a dyno so I could auto-x the next day..... then there was the one week rebuild

FC3S Murray · 04-01-2010, 08:45 AM

Hey I have a little concern with my oil pressure:
I have my idle set at 900 rpm and upon start up I have extremely high oil pressure due to running a FD regulator. Anyway when it settles at 160* oil temp the pressure is about 40 psi. After driving around and getting the oil temps around 175-180 my mechanical aftermarket Oil pressure gauges shows about 11-12 psi at idle........

This seems low. If I barely rev the rpm up to 1K(which my idle is set there now) it sits at about 17-18 psi,which is within factory spec BUT thats at 1k NOT 800 rpm.

I know what the front o-ring symptoms are and this doesn't seem like it because when I rev and drive the car i get upwards of 90 psi around 4k. 0-ring symptoms are bleed out at 40 psi and doesn't get any higher with revs.

My concern is it being that low and how low will it register when I have a long time frame of WOT pulls and get the oil temps even higher. Right now I am running Castrol GTX 10w-30. I will go to 20W-50 Mobil 1 syntheic when break in is complete.

I didnt shim the front cover regulator because I didn't know you were supposed to with the FD regulator. The Oil pump was nin perfect shape.

Any ideas? I have heard oil pressure at idle is not a big concern but I NEVER like low pressure regardless.

***TitaniumTT*** · 04-01-2010, 09:00 AM

Shimming the bypass with an FD reg is only going to keep the bypass from dumping oil when the pressure gets too high. Shimming the reg brings the point where the bypass will bypass higher, it does nothing for lower pressures. Plus, FWIW, I am dropping my oil pan front cover this weekend to replace a squeezed out o-ring, I think my front cover is warped as this is the second time it's happened, and I am pulling my shims OUT. I have seen upwards of 125psi oil pressure and that's just way to high. It doesn't need to be there and is doing more damage than good in my eyes.

While your pressure is low, it's enough to raise an eyebrow but noting out of the ordinary. Did you modify any of the oil passages? Are you sure the OP was within spec? They may LOOK good, but the tolerances on them are so eff'ing tight that just a little wear will show low pressure. My pump was out of spec but it was only by a few thou, and I was in a pinch so I tossed it in... My pressure does the same thing as yours down low. When I pull my front cover I'm going to play musical oil pump parts to see if I can get a pump that falls within spec. I have like a dozen pumps but only one with the o-ring groove machined in it.

Sadly, the only thing to do is pull the front cover BUT I don't think you're at that point. I would honestly just wait and see what the bump in viscosity does. A new oil pump might be in order. Did you clean up any of the passages?

FC3S Murray · 04-01-2010, 10:22 AM

No I did not modify any of the oil passages. Cleaned them out really well. Used halomar to seal the pump. The pump I used was actually in better shape, I didnt measure the specs but this pump had far less visual scars then the last oil pump. New pump actually has very little to no visual scaring.

I really hate pulling the front cover........

project86 · 04-01-2010, 10:37 AM

i would see if you could go to o shittys ( orielys) and grab a cheap ass oil pressure gauge and see if it reads any different. id hate to see you lose another motEr sean.

WE3RX7 · 04-01-2010, 10:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TitaniumTT

break in an engine in a week to make a dyno so I could auto-x the next day..... then there was the one week rebuild

Possbily a connection

FC3S Murray · 04-01-2010, 11:28 AM

No worries Kyle, I wont be rodding it if this pressure doesnt go up.

I called mazdatrix and brianstormed with them. I did only put the teflon ring with halomar on the front cover casting, this is what Mazdatrix's rebuild video called for if you have the S5 type o-ring casting. They instructed leave the o-ring out.

Mazdatrix and I both agree this oil pressure problem is not a o-ring issue due to still getting higher pressure up in the higher rpm range BUT instead be a PUMP issue.

This figures since I swapped out the other pump from that last shit-ass motor that DID get 30 psi constantly at idle........that is what I get for visually comparing scars, BUT dammit this one I have in my motor is almost perfect.. ic ouldnt even catch a finger nail on any of the slightly visible valleys!

I mean seriously..I get upwards of 35-38 psi at 1400 rpm and it sky rockets as I climb in rpm.

What is the highest oil pressure value you guys get above 4K with the FD regulator @ normal oil operating temps? I am going to see what my highest value is once the motor is warm later today.

***TitaniumTT*** · 04-01-2010, 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FC3S Murray

No I did not modify any of the oil passages. Cleaned them out really well. Used halomar to seal the pump. The pump I used was actually in better shape, I didnt measure the specs but this pump had far less visual scars then the last oil pump. New pump actually has very little to no visual scaring.

I really hate pulling the front cover........

Just becuase there is no visible scarring doesn't mean that it's within spec. The one that I'm using right now looked brandy new, but it was out by a few thou. Yeah, pulling the FC sucks, especially with the engine still in the car. Is your oil pan studded? Be glad if it isn't

Quote:

Originally Posted by WE3RX7

Possbily a connection

Yeah, that one week rebuild was the one with the sticky corner seal......... bastard

FC3S Murray · 04-01-2010, 12:10 PM

OK I found my spec notes on all my internal parts. I thought I didn't spec out my oil pump BUT i did lol...it was all a blur last summer trying to squeeze in engine time in with the new house and family.

Anyway: Between lobe measurement was .003 , FSM says between .0012-.0047

Between body and outer rotor: .009 , FSM says .0079-.0098

So it is good, not perfect BUT good. I keep researching standard oil pressure and I keep coming across 15psi (RETed). The FSM only states standard oil pressure at 3K...no idle. WTF lol? I thought i found factory oil pressure in the fsm......hmmm?

I am not too worried since it now reads 17-18 psi @ 1K. I will watch it though.

project86 · 04-01-2010, 01:56 PM

hmmm very curious....it does seem that the op at idle isnt as pertinent as would be under wot or normal driving conditions. and not that i expected you to but im glad you dont assume anything when it comes to shit like that... as we all know .. ASSUMING=THE MOTHER OF ALL FUK UPS!

FC3S Murray · 04-01-2010, 09:04 PM

Well I just got back from a little drive:

at 165* F oil temp I get 79/80 psi at 3k rpm, 90 psi at 5500 rpm and 18 psi at 950 idle rpm

At 175/180*F oil temp I get 75 psi at 3K, 85-87 psi at 5500 rpm and 12-14 psi at 950 idle rpm

I bumped my idle to 1050 rpm and now she sits at 20 psi @ 180*F and 25 psi @ 160* F.

It still bothers me BUT at least my 3K test via the FSM is within spec and anything higher rpm is GREAT!

I do also wonder if this 10W-30 is a little broken down/fuel saturated from 560 miles of very rich AFR's and a shit load of sitting idle time on it(winter start ups). It still is somewhat viscous but i know our oil gets "fuely" over time.

As for my coilovers: they are doing great! I love the ride!!! I do have a slight clunk in the rear when the car gets tossed side to side from road bumps AND on sudden clutch release. My subframe looks mighty close to my diff and I wonder if these MMR adjusters clunk a little since the aluminum block doesnt fit in real snug in the trailer arm.

RETed · 04-02-2010, 12:08 AM

Anything above 10psi is okay.
If it starts dropping under that, I'd worry.

Here's the problem...
Unless you have a pressure gauge that is "certified" for low psi in the 5...10...15psi range, your gauge is probably not that accurate that low.
As a rule, gauges are most accurate in the middle of their range...
So a 0 - 100psi pressure gauge is most accurate around 50psi.
Trying to get a 0 - 100psi pressure gauge to read accurate down to the 5 - 15psi range is just not reasonable.

Yes, your oil is diluted from all that rich running.
Your oil pressure is going to go up.
How much is it going up? I doubt it's going to be much...
I'd be surprised if it goes up from 10psi to 15psi.
It doesn't hurt, and changing oil isn't that much of a big deal.

Now, going from a 10W30 to 20W50 *is* going to be much more of a difference.
You're basically doubling the viscocity of the oil, and that's going to change your numbers significantly.

I think you're being a little paranoid about the oil pressure, but, on the flip side, I don't blame you.
I've been through an OPR failure and an o-ring failure, and I know what the symptoms look like - you're going to see a significant drop in *max* oil pressure at higher revs; idle oil pressure is practically "0".
Remember, the engine is under very little load at idle - 10psi doesn't sound like much, but it's enough to keep everything lubed and happy.
An engine revving under load at 3k+ RPM's is going to fail a lot faster when you cut the oil pressure in half versus at idle.
Now, I'm not talking about catastrophic oil pressure loss like...NO oil pressure, which is obvious the engine is going to kill itself in short time no matter under what conditions, but I hope you get the point of this long reply...

-Ted

project86 · 04-02-2010, 01:05 AM

i like long technical replies

they make me lubed and happy... i mean happy..

FC3S Murray · 04-02-2010, 07:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RETed

Anything above 10psi is okay.
If it starts dropping under that, I'd worry.

Here's the problem...
Unless you have a pressure gauge that is "certified" for low psi in the 5...10...15psi range, your gauge is probably not that accurate that low.
As a rule, gauges are most accurate in the middle of their range...
So a 0 - 100psi pressure gauge is most accurate around 50psi.
Trying to get a 0 - 100psi pressure gauge to read accurate down to the 5 - 15psi range is just not reasonable.

Yeah I am running prosport gauges...they are nice qaulity BUT I am pretty sure their low range is not as accurate as I would like and I doubt they are as accurate as a 150.00 Greddy gauge. Can't complian for a 50.00$ gauge though.

Quote:

Yes, your oil is diluted from all that rich running.
Your oil pressure is going to go up.
How much is it going up? I doubt it's going to be much...
I'd be surprised if it goes up from 10psi to 15psi.
It doesn't hurt, and changing oil isn't that much of a big deal.

Now, going from a 10W30 to 20W50 *is* going to be much more of a difference.
You're basically doubling the viscocity of the oil, and that's going to change your numbers significantly.

That is what I hope for. My idle will never drop beyond 1050 rpm so I think the pressure will be there EVEN if I have a long period of WOT pulls and get that oil thinner

Quote:

I think you're being a little paranoid about the oil pressure, but, on the flip side, I don't blame you.
I've been through an OPR failure and an o-ring failure, and I know what the symptoms look like - you're going to see a significant drop in *max* oil pressure at higher revs; idle oil pressure is practically "0".
Remember, the engine is under very little load at idle - 10psi doesn't sound like much, but it's enough to keep everything lubed and happy.
An engine revving under load at 3k+ RPM's is going to fail a lot faster when you cut the oil pressure in half versus at idle.
Now, I'm not talking about catastrophic oil pressure loss like...NO oil pressure, which is obvious the engine is going to kill itself in short time no matter under what conditions, but I hope you get the point of this long reply...

-Ted

Thanks man and I am glad you understand my parinoid reasoning. I am keeping in mind the "golden" rule of 10 psi for evry 1000rpm and I am DEFINITELY getting that!

Thanks for the encouraging post man.

03-31-2010, 10:11 PM	#422
*TitaniumTT* Test Whore - Admin Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Right Behind you son iTrader: (4) Posts: 4,581 Rep Power: 10	yeah yeah.... I'm the idiot that would drive 1-2 hundred miles a night around the state just to break in an engine in a week to make a dyno so I could auto-x the next day..... then there was the one week rebuild __________________ -The Angry Stig- DGRR 2009, 2011, 2012 & 2013 - Best FC DEALS GAP!! WOOHOOOO!!!!! 2015 Audi S4 - Samantha - Zero Brap S4 2004 RX8 - Jocelyn - 196rwhp, 19mpg fuel to noise converter 2000 Jeep Cherokee Sport - Wifey mobile - Now with 2.5" OME lift and 30" BFG AT KO's! So it begins 1998 Jeep Cherokee - 5 spd, 4" lift, 33" BFG's - Rotary Tow Vehicle 1988 'Vert - In progress 1988 FC Coupe - Gretchen -The attention whore BEAST! I'm a sick individual, what's wrong with you? I'm pure Evil I'm still insane, in the best possible way. I think Brian's idea of romance is using lube. Your rage caused the meteor strike in Russia. The Antichrist would be proud of his minion. You win with your thread. Most everything It's a truck with a steel gate on the back. Just a statement of fact Motec M820, AIM dash, ported 13B-RE Cosmo, 6-spd trans, 4.3 Torsen, custom twin wg fully divided mani, Custom 4" split into 2x 3" exhaust, Custom HMIC, Custom custom custom custom I like to welder stuff.... No Bolt-ons allowed. Dyno'ed @ Speed1 Tuned by me - 405rwhp on WG.... WM50 cuming soon. *-Angry Motherfcker Mode ENGAGED-**

04-01-2010, 08:45 AM	#423
FC3S Murray frustrated! Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Montana iTrader: (3) Posts: 611 Rep Power: 16	Hey I have a little concern with my oil pressure: I have my idle set at 900 rpm and upon start up I have extremely high oil pressure due to running a FD regulator. Anyway when it settles at 160* oil temp the pressure is about 40 psi. After driving around and getting the oil temps around 175-180 my mechanical aftermarket Oil pressure gauges shows about 11-12 psi at idle........ This seems low. If I barely rev the rpm up to 1K(which my idle is set there now) it sits at about 17-18 psi,which is within factory spec BUT thats at 1k NOT 800 rpm. I know what the front o-ring symptoms are and this doesn't seem like it because when I rev and drive the car i get upwards of 90 psi around 4k. 0-ring symptoms are bleed out at 40 psi and doesn't get any higher with revs. My concern is it being that low and how low will it register when I have a long time frame of WOT pulls and get the oil temps even higher. Right now I am running Castrol GTX 10w-30. I will go to 20W-50 Mobil 1 syntheic when break in is complete. I didnt shim the front cover regulator because I didn't know you were supposed to with the FD regulator. The Oil pump was nin perfect shape. Any ideas? I have heard oil pressure at idle is not a big concern but I NEVER like low pressure regardless. __________________ Same pig, new soul Last edited by FC3S Murray; 04-01-2010 at 08:49 AM..

04-01-2010, 09:00 AM	#424
*TitaniumTT* Test Whore - Admin Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Right Behind you son iTrader: (4) Posts: 4,581 Rep Power: 10	Shimming the bypass with an FD reg is only going to keep the bypass from dumping oil when the pressure gets too high. Shimming the reg brings the point where the bypass will bypass higher, it does nothing for lower pressures. Plus, FWIW, I am dropping my oil pan front cover this weekend to replace a squeezed out o-ring, I think my front cover is warped as this is the second time it's happened, and I am pulling my shims OUT. I have seen upwards of 125psi oil pressure and that's just way to high. It doesn't need to be there and is doing more damage than good in my eyes. While your pressure is low, it's enough to raise an eyebrow but noting out of the ordinary. Did you modify any of the oil passages? Are you sure the OP was within spec? They may LOOK good, but the tolerances on them are so eff'ing tight that just a little wear will show low pressure. My pump was out of spec but it was only by a few thou, and I was in a pinch so I tossed it in... My pressure does the same thing as yours down low. When I pull my front cover I'm going to play musical oil pump parts to see if I can get a pump that falls within spec. I have like a dozen pumps but only one with the o-ring groove machined in it. Sadly, the only thing to do is pull the front cover BUT I don't think you're at that point. I would honestly just wait and see what the bump in viscosity does. A new oil pump might be in order. Did you clean up any of the passages? __________________ -The Angry Stig- DGRR 2009, 2011, 2012 & 2013 - Best FC DEALS GAP!! WOOHOOOO!!!!! 2015 Audi S4 - Samantha - Zero Brap S4 2004 RX8 - Jocelyn - 196rwhp, 19mpg fuel to noise converter 2000 Jeep Cherokee Sport - Wifey mobile - Now with 2.5" OME lift and 30" BFG AT KO's! So it begins 1998 Jeep Cherokee - 5 spd, 4" lift, 33" BFG's - Rotary Tow Vehicle 1988 'Vert - In progress 1988 FC Coupe - Gretchen -The attention whore BEAST! I'm a sick individual, what's wrong with you? I'm pure Evil I'm still insane, in the best possible way. I think Brian's idea of romance is using lube. Your rage caused the meteor strike in Russia. The Antichrist would be proud of his minion. You win with your thread. Most everything It's a truck with a steel gate on the back. Just a statement of fact Motec M820, AIM dash, ported 13B-RE Cosmo, 6-spd trans, 4.3 Torsen, custom twin wg fully divided mani, Custom 4" split into 2x 3" exhaust, Custom HMIC, Custom custom custom custom I like to welder stuff.... No Bolt-ons allowed. Dyno'ed @ Speed1 Tuned by me - 405rwhp on WG.... WM50 cuming soon. *-Angry Motherfcker Mode ENGAGED-**

04-01-2010, 10:22 AM	#425
FC3S Murray frustrated! Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Montana iTrader: (3) Posts: 611 Rep Power: 16	No I did not modify any of the oil passages. Cleaned them out really well. Used halomar to seal the pump. The pump I used was actually in better shape, I didnt measure the specs but this pump had far less visual scars then the last oil pump. New pump actually has very little to no visual scaring. I really hate pulling the front cover........ __________________ Same pig, new soul

04-01-2010, 10:37 AM	#426
project86 Can't.Make.Up.My.Mind. Join Date: May 2009 Location: Murfreesboro, TN iTrader: (3) Posts: 1,377 Rep Power: 17	i would see if you could go to o shittys ( orielys) and grab a cheap ass oil pressure gauge and see if it reads any different. id hate to see you lose another motEr sean. __________________ '90 GTUs Stay up to date with my photography '06 Toyota Highlander Hybrid '10 Toyota Prius "Initial Success or Total Failure"

04-01-2010, 11:28 AM	#428
FC3S Murray frustrated! Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Montana iTrader: (3) Posts: 611 Rep Power: 16	No worries Kyle, I wont be rodding it if this pressure doesnt go up. I called mazdatrix and brianstormed with them. I did only put the teflon ring with halomar on the front cover casting, this is what Mazdatrix's rebuild video called for if you have the S5 type o-ring casting. They instructed leave the o-ring out. Mazdatrix and I both agree this oil pressure problem is not a o-ring issue due to still getting higher pressure up in the higher rpm range BUT instead be a PUMP issue. This figures since I swapped out the other pump from that last shit-ass motor that DID get 30 psi constantly at idle........that is what I get for visually comparing scars, BUT dammit this one I have in my motor is almost perfect.. ic ouldnt even catch a finger nail on any of the slightly visible valleys! I mean seriously..I get upwards of 35-38 psi at 1400 rpm and it sky rockets as I climb in rpm. What is the highest oil pressure value you guys get above 4K with the FD regulator @ normal oil operating temps? I am going to see what my highest value is once the motor is warm later today. __________________ Same pig, new soul Last edited by FC3S Murray; 04-01-2010 at 08:57 PM..

04-01-2010, 12:10 PM	#430
FC3S Murray frustrated! Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Montana iTrader: (3) Posts: 611 Rep Power: 16	OK I found my spec notes on all my internal parts. I thought I didn't spec out my oil pump BUT i did lol...it was all a blur last summer trying to squeeze in engine time in with the new house and family. Anyway: Between lobe measurement was .003 , FSM says between .0012-.0047 Between body and outer rotor: .009 , FSM says .0079-.0098 So it is good, not perfect BUT good. I keep researching standard oil pressure and I keep coming across 15psi (RETed). The FSM only states standard oil pressure at 3K...no idle. WTF lol? I thought i found factory oil pressure in the fsm......hmmm? I am not too worried since it now reads 17-18 psi @ 1K. I will watch it though. __________________ Same pig, new soul

04-01-2010, 01:56 PM	#431
project86 Can't.Make.Up.My.Mind. Join Date: May 2009 Location: Murfreesboro, TN iTrader: (3) Posts: 1,377 Rep Power: 17	hmmm very curious....it does seem that the op at idle isnt as pertinent as would be under wot or normal driving conditions. and not that i expected you to but im glad you dont assume anything when it comes to shit like that... as we all know .. ASSUMING=THE MOTHER OF ALL FUK UPS! __________________ '90 GTUs Stay up to date with my photography '06 Toyota Highlander Hybrid '10 Toyota Prius "Initial Success or Total Failure"

04-01-2010, 09:04 PM	#432
FC3S Murray frustrated! Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Montana iTrader: (3) Posts: 611 Rep Power: 16	Well I just got back from a little drive: at 165* F oil temp I get 79/80 psi at 3k rpm, 90 psi at 5500 rpm and 18 psi at 950 idle rpm At 175/180F oil temp I get 75 psi at 3K, 85-87 psi at 5500 rpm and 12-14 psi at 950 idle rpm I bumped my idle to 1050 rpm and now she sits at 20 psi @ 180F and 25 psi @ 160* F. It still bothers me BUT at least my 3K test via the FSM is within spec and anything higher rpm is GREAT! I do also wonder if this 10W-30 is a little broken down/fuel saturated from 560 miles of very rich AFR's and a shit load of sitting idle time on it(winter start ups). It still is somewhat viscous but i know our oil gets "fuely" over time. As for my coilovers: they are doing great! I love the ride!!! I do have a slight clunk in the rear when the car gets tossed side to side from road bumps AND on sudden clutch release. My subframe looks mighty close to my diff *and* I wonder if these MMR adjusters clunk a little since the aluminum block doesnt fit in real snug in the trailer arm. __________________ Same pig, new soul Last edited by FC3S Murray; 04-01-2010 at 09:10 PM..

04-02-2010, 01:05 AM	#434
project86 Can't.Make.Up.My.Mind. Join Date: May 2009 Location: Murfreesboro, TN iTrader: (3) Posts: 1,377 Rep Power: 17	i like long technical replies they make me lubed and happy... i mean happy.. __________________ '90 GTUs Stay up to date with my photography '06 Toyota Highlander Hybrid '10 Toyota Prius "Initial Success or Total Failure"