REW Sequential Dyno - very uncommon results

[classicauto]

I can't wait to see your seq. graph. The power IMO is very good for the boost and I'm thinking like others that the package is the key....power is all about how everything works together.

Truthfully though, I'm a little un-impressed with the 4000RPM numbers. My ancient T04-R slug and stock port S5 engine with low comp S4 rotors is cranking about 180whp by that point on wastegate (10psi) vs. your ~135whp. I would HOPE that stock twins, even non-seq, would be packing more punch down low. Thats not to take away from your achievement, that thing has a sexy looking graph. Also to that point though, if you were running 12-14psi non seq. you'd likely be at or surpassing my numbers by 4K.......soooo....

[Chadwick]

This is the only chart I have of mine at the office around the same power level. This was at 10 psi:


Here is one at 13psi:

[dudemaaan]

Non sequential twins with all the sequential stuff in place have horrible response compared to full non sequential and especially sequential. Years back i had poor mans non sequential and full 10psi boost was at 4k my t60-1 had 15 psi by 3700. And my t71 is slow as hell with 23 psi around 5k

[Brent]

Originally Posted by Chadwick

This is the only chart I have of mine at the office around the same power level. This was at 10 psi:


Here is one at 13psi:

That's not a rotary torque curve

[TimeMachine]

Originally Posted by Chadwick

This is the only chart I have of mine at the office around the same power level. This was at 10 psi:

Would you tell us more details about the motor?

[TitaniumTT]

Originally Posted by Brent

Impressive numbers.

Thank you!

Originally Posted by sbrian2

Correct.

Originally Posted by Chadwick

This is the only chart I have of mine at the office around the same power level. This was at 10 psi:


Here is one at 13psi:

Those are some awesome numbers. I wonder how much of that is from the higher comp rotors. I'd imagine alot of the torque down low is from it. Perfect auto-x engine isn't she?

[TitaniumTT]

Originally Posted by David Jerome

I have seen very little variance in the dyno dynamics numbers, they read consistenly lower than what else is out there. I know it will read much lower than the dynojet but I can do the math on the dyno dynamics and have a really close idea to what the number equates to on a dyno jet. If you have another dynojet just take it there for a true best case scenario. Its not a big deal either way, but 330rwhp on 9lbs is hard to swallow on the stockers, I dont know if anyone has made that on the BNRs even.

I know it is, which was kinda the whole point to the tread.

These are the websites to the two local shops. I'm inclined to take her to ICS just because they have the dynojet, but I'll be more than happy to go to The Shop if you would prefer to get some dyno dynamics numbers. I'm curious as to what the "correction factor" is or what the math entails.

http://www.icsperformance.com/
http://www.theshopct.com/

Originally Posted by TimeMachine

Would you tell us more details about the motor?

13B-RE, RE housings, and 9.0 comp rotors. Renni E-shaft and stat gears, everythings been cryo treated. I rebuilt the engine using new corner and side seals. Side Seal clearance is 1/2 what Mazda min specs are, new Rotary Aviation Super Seals and race Springs. New oil control rings and MazdaComp springs.

Intake - we'll call it a Med street port. I spent about a day or more cleaning up the runners, bowls and portmatching the LIM to the block. The UIM to LIM is also portmatched as it is to the TB and the TB to the modded Greedy elbow. The TB itself got a little polishing and the 2nd'ary butterflies removed. Modded the y-pipe to remove the stock BOV port, seperated the chambers and built my own x-over pipe, much like Garfinkle did. Everything's been ceramic coated. HMIC, I'm not saying the name of the manufacture, but it is a damn heavy intercooler. 3" x 22" I believe.

Exhaust - RE housings ported with the Pineapple Racing EP2a Template and REW sleeves. I plugged the exhaust recirc port. El Cheapo DP with header wrap. Magnaflow 3" in twin 2.5" out presilencer and two Magnaflow 2.5" in/out cans. All sequential hardware intact. Ported the WG and ceramic coated everything.

Motec M820 ecu, 750/1000cc injectors, Cosmo pump, Aeromotive filter and Mini regulator......

Exedy Twin Disc Clutch, Torsen rear with 4.11 gears and 255/40/17 tires.

I think that's about all the pertanent info.

Originally Posted by dregg100

also take into consideration that he is running an RE(correct?) and not and REW. which has significantly larger ports, and it is also ported. so he may be creating only 9psi of boost, but the engine has alot less resistance therefor flows more air. so that same 9 psi on his engine could be the same amount of air that a stock rew is using at 12psi...

DING DING DA DA DA DING!!!! This is the exact reason I chose the RE over the REW. In reality they would've required the same amout of work to install them in my FC. I chose the RE becuase the UIM lends itself more for torque, the runners have more "balance" between them than the REW's LIM, runners are larger (which as dregg pointed out will move more CFM at the same boost level) and years and years ago when I was doing my research I was informed that the GZ LIM won't fit on an REW running twins and the whole point of this build was to stuff the best auto-x engine I could build into the chassis. End goal being a few dyno charts like Dans. Depending how far off I am, I may be finding a set of S5 rotors over the winter.

[TitaniumTT]

Originally Posted by classicauto

I can't wait to see your seq. graph. The power IMO is very good for the boost and I'm thinking like others that the package is the key....power is all about how everything works together.

Truthfully though, I'm a little un-impressed with the 4000RPM numbers. My ancient T04-R slug and stock port S5 engine with low comp S4 rotors is cranking about 180whp by that point on wastegate (10psi) vs. your ~135whp. I would HOPE that stock twins, even non-seq, would be packing more punch down low. Thats not to take away from your achievement, that thing has a sexy looking graph. Also to that point though, if you were running 12-14psi non seq. you'd likely be at or surpassing my numbers by 4K.......soooo....

It's tough to get the non-sequential twins with all the sequential hardware to get to that boost level by those RPMS. @ 4k the boost really takes off though. I'm still messing around with the PID closed loop boost control. The Normal Position table seems to be the key to get good ACCURATE boost response. With the sequentials working though, I've played with them in the past on the street and at the blip of the throttle you'll hit 15psi by 2500 or less. It's crazy how quick that one Hitachi turbo spools up. I'm REALLY hoping to get the sequentials working at full tilt next Friday..... Spoke to Dave today, our next play-date is 10/09 so I should be able to get some numbers up by that night, charts a day or two later.

Originally Posted by dudemaaan

Non sequential twins with all the sequential stuff in place have horrible response compared to full non sequential and especially sequential. Years back i had poor mans non sequential and full 10psi boost was at 4k my t60-1 had 15 psi by 3700. And my t71 is slow as hell with 23 psi around 5k

I agree, all the turbulence created by all the various flappers and butterfly valves does nothing good for the response, both on the exhaust and the intake side of it. On the otherhand, when they're in place and working......... holly cripes, retarded spool. Broke the tires loose on a little odulation in 5th gear @ 60 mph on the highway.

[TitaniumTT]

Thought I'd give an update regardless of how bad it was. We stopped early for fuel related issues and I believe there is either a boost leak, the Charge Relief valve puked, or something else with the turbos is wrong. It could possibly be I ported the WG too large and the backpressure is overpowering the WG Actuator. We stopped at 33% duty on the WG solenoid, 11.5lbs of boost and 360 RWHP, graph to come later. My fuel filter clogged again.

This is becoming too much of a habit so if anyone knows of a lab that can test my old filter to find out what is actually clogging it, I would love to know who they are.

Onto the screen shots, the dyno graph will come later. Trying to arrange my sched next week to get back to Dave after I re-double-check everything.

You can see why Dave let out early - she went a little too lean and heres why.



She hit about 12.5-13 afr and got there quick, kudo's to Dave for the cat like reflexs

In case anyone in wondering how much backpressure the twins really make, seeing how no one has ever been able to say definately. At 5k up the boost falls off. I think there's something wrong, valve, leak, whatever, something puked because I know I've seen higher creeps before, I missed something when I checked her over two nights ago.

[dudemaaan]

Does the cosmo pump have good wiring? You're sure it's the filter clogged and not a sticking check valve or something right? You have a fuel filter sock on the pump right? Check to make sure it has the plastic things to keep it from collapsing on itself. I remember one guy's thread he was having trouble with fuel pressure dropping off, and it turned out the aftermarket sock he installed didn't have anything to prevent the sock from collapsing on itself, once he replaced it, his fuel pressure was back to normal.

Curious, where are you measuring back pressure for the twins? It's hitting 33 psi of back pressure at that point on the graph and it hasn't even peaked yet. That's pretty terrible.

The boost dropping off doesn't look like it's falling off a lot, maybe you need to adjust the solenoid gain, not sure what the motec has for adjusting boost, but most boost controllers need some kind of tweaking to keep it from creeping or falling. You could pressurize the intake system and check for leaks. I'm more inclined to think your engine is just breathing too well for the turbos, they can't supply the air that the engine wants. Based on the amount of power it's making at low boost pressures, it's requiring a lot of air. Twins usually start running out of breath around 14 psi or so, well you're using the same amount of air at 9 lbs of boost. You might just need larger compressors, just throwing it out there. It might be something else going on.

[BigIslandSevens]

NIce numbers man! That thing should be a handfull when you stab it. Here is a link to a lab that tests fuels among other things.

http://www.intertek-cb.com/services/services.shtml

And a lab search engine I beleive

http://www.contractlaboratory.com/La...as_testing.cfm

[TitaniumTT]

Originally Posted by BigIslandSevens

NIce numbers man! That thing should be a handfull when you stab it. Here is a link to a lab that tests fuels among other things.

http://www.intertek-cb.com/services/services.shtml

And a lab search engine I beleive

http://www.contractlaboratory.com/La...as_testing.cfm

Yeah, she definately gets up and scoots. Thanks for the links, gonna give them a call first thing Monday.

Originally Posted by dudemaaan

Does the cosmo pump have good wiring?

Yup, battery relocated to the bin, 25A breaker right there, 10ga wiring to the relay mounted on the shock tower and 14 ga to the pump itself.

Originally Posted by dudemaaan

You're sure it's the filter clogged and not a sticking check valve or something right?

Positive, after that last run we wheeled her forward, threw her on the lift and pulled the filter right there. We could barely blow threw it. Granted Dave and I are smokers but still. New filter went in and the L went from .8-.74. More flow/pressure = more fuel = rich etc etc.

Originally Posted by dudemaaan

You have a fuel filter sock on the pump right? Check to make sure it has the plastic things to keep it from collapsing on itself. I remember one guy's thread he was having trouble with fuel pressure dropping off, and it turned out the aftermarket sock he installed didn't have anything to prevent the sock from collapsing on itself, once he replaced it, his fuel pressure was back to normal.

Running the stock FC sock. Big square thing. Damn clean when it went in but I am going to check that, probably replace it as well. Whatever is clogging this up seems to have gotten a little finer as the 100 micron or so sock isn't getting clogged up but the 10 micron filter is. The ONLY thing left that hasn't been replaced or thouroughly cleaned are the lines themselves. I replaced them with -6 stainless lines. The last time I had the tank down I emptied a car of carb clean into the lines and then blasted 135psi of air through them. It took a dozen times or so to empty the can.

Originally Posted by dudemaaan

Curious, where are you measuring back pressure for the twins? It's hitting 33 psi of back pressure at that point on the graph and it hasn't even peaked yet. That's pretty terrible.

I'm measuring backpressure in the mani itself. Dead center between the two exhaust ports. We're seeing a max of 275 kpa which is 25psi. Where are you seeing 33psi?

Originally Posted by dudemaaan

The boost dropping off doesn't look like it's falling off a lot, maybe you need to adjust the solenoid gain, not sure what the motec has for adjusting boost, but most boost controllers need some kind of tweaking to keep it from creeping or falling.

The Motec has two ways of controlling boost. A PID function where you enter duty cylces into a Normal Position Table which the ECU looks at first then compares the Actual Boost to the Aim Boost and corrects the duty cylce accordingly. The PID needs the normal position table to be pretty accurate otherwise it hunts all over the place. I have a few logs where the Normal Position was close but the duty cycle would fluctuate between ~30 and 70% across the RPM range to hold boost.

While on the Dyno we were using just an open loop, we input the duty cycles that we want it to see and it does it. So we could easily reduce the duty cycle. We were at 33% before the fuel psi problem struck so there's a bunch more than we can take out. I MAY have to do a different actuator. I hear there is one that is about the same dimensions and has an adjustable spring, from the factory.

Originally Posted by dudemaaan

You could pressurize the intake system and check for leaks. I'm more inclined to think your engine is just breathing too well for the turbos, they can't supply the air that the engine wants. Based on the amount of power it's making at low boost pressures, it's requiring a lot of air. Twins usually start running out of breath around 14 psi or so, well you're using the same amount of air at 9 lbs of boost. You might just need larger compressors, just throwing it out there. It might be something else going on.

Thanks for all the help man, I really appreciate the insights. Having an engine that flows too well isn't exactely a bad problem to have. Of course then the question becomes do I just leave these turbo's alone where they are or do I do something crazy like a twin GT28 A-la Howard Coleman setup. They won't have the response of the sequentials unless I go all Mad Scientist with wastegates and tubing to make my own sequential system, but they will deliver the air for 400 RWHP..... decisions decisions.

I'm going to check all the valves and make sure they are not only fuctioning properly but are setup correctly in the software. Last night driving home I was checking Fuel PSI by making a few long runs up to 7500 while @ 0", I could hear a whooshing sound coming from the right side of the engine, at least I think it was, I'm thinking the Charge Relief Valve is pinned open, setup wrong, or the vac lines are wrong and that thing is just pinned open venting boost pressure. That would be a major leak to say the least. But like you pointed out, there is a TON of backpressure and not much boost. I know I've seen 15 psi higher in the band with less duty. So after I check that thing out I'm going to be pressurizing the entire system to see if there is anything else leaking.

[TitaniumTT]

Found the answer to one of my problems - the Charge Relief Valve was setup improperly - entirely my fault. 7 keystrokes on the Motec and the problem was solved, figuring it out though was an entirely different problem. Inj 7 is the CRV, notice in the second screenshot above the duty cycle is 0%, the one below it is 100%. 100% shows the valve boost and it stays closed, 0% shows it vac and it is held wide open. So in otherwords the turbos spooled slower than they should've, vented a significant amount to atmosphere, still made 11.5 lbs of MAP and 360 RWHP. Tonight I took a little trip and datalogged a 3rd gear pull. Note the boost level and more importantly the Inj #5 duty cycle. Inj5 being the WG. So, onto the fuel clogging and then back to the dyno.

[dudemaaan]

Good glad you got that sorted out. You should see some more power now too. This is what I used to convert kpa to psi which shows 275 kpa being nearly 40 psi. http://www.csgnetwork.com/presskpapsicvt.html

[TitaniumTT]

Ah, 275 kpa is about 40 psi, but that is including the 100 kpa of atmposphere. Car off, key on, the MAP and the EMAP are @ ~100kpa. So that 275 kpa is really only 175kpa of internal exhaust "boost" or about 25 psi @ about 12.5 psi so it's a 2:1 at the higher revs which is right about the limit of where you want them to be. Anywhere from a 1:1 - a 2:1 ratio is generally acceptable. So when we get up towards 15psi it'll be interesting where they go. Honestly I think she'll exceed the 2:1 ratio and max out the 3bar MAP sensor I have for the EMAP