coils

[mattallac]

rice racing my question is the second jen turbo came with inductive coils why didnt they use a cdi ,i do understand electrical theory and yes a cdi can magnify spark or a msd 6a box will multi spark (only to 3k) .i have ran my old repu on the dyno for testing with and without 6a boxes and there was no hp difference .that was a streetport 13b ,holly 600 ,road race header with dual 2" ,166hp to rear wheels at 7500 rpm.now as for turbo application on a rotary i have not tried a cdi yet. with the stock coils on my rx2 i am at 347 hpp on a mustang dyno at 10 psi.7500 rpm.aem coil is 118 mj ,up to 3.2ms

[RICE RACING]

Originally Posted by mattallac

rice racing my question is the second jen turbo came with inductive coils why didnt they use a cdi ,i do understand electrical theory and yes a cdi can magnify spark or a msd 6a box will multi spark (only to 3k) .i have ran my old repu on the dyno for testing with and without 6a boxes and there was no hp difference .that was a streetport 13b ,holly 600 ,road race header with dual 2" ,166hp to rear wheels at 7500 rpm.now as for turbo application on a rotary i have not tried a cdi yet. with the stock coils on my rx2 i am at 347 hpp on a mustang dyno at 10 psi.7500 rpm.aem coil is 118 mj ,up to 3.2ms

CDI costs money, Inductive is cheap, that is why OEM dont use it from factory. Look at the factory LeMans winner, you will find CDI on it

If its ported, or running boosted at good power CDI is a no brainer really.....
I have a video of stock std 13B S5 engine block here I ran 10 to 15 years ago > http://www.riceracing.com.au/water-injection.htm
S5 video > 440rwhp down bottom of page.
You cant do this on inductive with 11 heat range plugs and a true daily driven car, I have had people try all types even with inductive boosters and much higher primary voltage to coils and it just flat out does not ever work as well as any decent CDI system.

One thing you will NEVER see on a good CDI set up is people changing spark plugs to warm up a race engine lol, you wont see people changing plugs cause they are fouled either on true road cars, you also will never see doctored "tunes" cause of misfire limitations imposed by a fundamental lack of secondary voltage or poor spark "type" characteristics (dont worry about token energy ratings some spurt out)......... CDI suits rotary engines end of story.

The bike CDI's are actually some of the most reliable, so are some of the marine version too. I pioneered the use of dynatek systems for rotaries and many across the world have copied my lead on that. Cheap, compact, powerful and reliable with no limits as I have described above at length.

Its a free world chose what you want @ the end of the day, just passing on what most would not care to tell forum people

[C. Ludwig]

Pete, you are entertaining.

[mattallac]

point taken rr,i looked at the dynatec coils and they are a compact package and the cdi's could fit in the cab , there is alot of adjustment options . i guess you would use the metric cruiser coils ,3 ohm or 2.2 ohm< and the cdi? how hard is it to hook up instead of standard coils ? but price is steep

[mattallac]

inductive and cdi are both good ways for a rotary engine ,there is no absolute ,rice i respect your opinion ,but 18 and 24 psi are NOT street cars,the problem is people want a race car/street car when in fact there is no such thing.if the care did not come on a trailer its not a race car period. when you buy a motorcycle for dirt/street (dual sport) the bike just sucks in both conditions.with that said i have been thinking of a half cdi (lead) half inductive (trailing ),might be the best for my application . not to pick on you rice but the white rx2 4 door is nice but it looks like you guys have 15 or 16 in rims on it there is no way you guys get traction ,on 10 psi of boost i run 14" wheels with drag radials and i still break traction in 3rd gear.that looks like loss of horse power to me.why hp the car out when it cant put it to the ground?thanks for all the good advice everyone.

[RICE RACING]

Originally Posted by mattallac

inductive and cdi are both good ways for a rotary engine ,there is no absolute ,rice i respect your opinion ,but 18 and 24 psi are NOT street cars,the problem is people want a race car/street car when in fact there is no such thing.if the care did not come on a trailer its not a race car period. when you buy a motorcycle for dirt/street (dual sport) the bike just sucks in both conditions.with that said i have been thinking of a half cdi (lead) half inductive (trailing ),might be the best for my application . not to pick on you rice but the white rx2 4 door is nice but it looks like you guys have 15 or 16 in rims on it there is no way you guys get traction ,on 10 psi of boost i run 14" wheels with drag radials and i still break traction in 3rd gear.that looks like loss of horse power to me.why hp the car out when it cant put it to the ground?thanks for all the good advice everyone.

This is why I despise the internet and most people's general commentary on it.

INDUCTIVE does NOT work at high power so it is not "GOOD" by your definition, no one I know wastes time to run ANY inductive set up as it has massive limitations and is just a flat out pain in the arse to live with because it can not do everything a CDI can (this is a well known fact).

That RX2 had only 205 wide section tires on 17" wheels and it has/had FULL TRACTION on 27psi boost! and over 600rwhp in 3rd gear, you can simply see the data logs I freely post up.

The RX7 running 25psi mid range boost again had stock std wheels and 225 wide rear tires and full traction in 2nd gear onwards.

On my own RICESP I run 255 wide tires on the factory BBS wheels, and I have full traction @ 20psi in 2nd gear with normal road tires (not semi slick R compound)........ PROVEN TO OUT ACCELERATE A FERRARI F40! & Vette ZR-1 !

ALL OF THESE CARS PUT THE POWER TO THE GROUND easy. < In 1st and 2nd gear or sub 70mph I/we use low boost (20psi) in 3rd gear onwards its common to run 25, 27, 36psi! or more psi! depending on the individual cars drive line and chassis quality, running an honest 700bhp @ the engine in a 13B road car on gasoline and "normal factory fitment rims/wheels and decent tires is easy" I even put up video's showing proof for any doubters, remember this is not FACT v's Fiction thread on RX7club where no evidence or any running cars are never posted LOL!!! this is all FACT!!! shown/proven/documented over multiple testing standards, dyno's, road video's.......... ALL FACT! not one ounce of internet forum FICTION!!!

20psi or 1.4bar or 1.5kg/cm boost is the minimum boost I run on road cars, YES real road cars!, drive there drive back, pass emission tests (on stock motors)! fill on normal gasoline (no power in a can needed!) and water injected. This is a road car, more so than anyone else poor attempts at achieving the same.

When you set up the car right and use good suspension and a decent tire of normal size as you can see in the many videos I post up, putting the power down is 100% possible and has been done many many many times.

I think the problem is we live in different worlds, I was doing 20 years ago what some today think is radical, to me what is normal now is still to this day un heard of for the vast majority of others be they individuals or shop owners. If you want to run low power, low boost then sure inductive will suffice you just like it does stock cars. If on the other hand you want to run BIG power, cold durable racing spark plugs, engine calibrations that stand the test of time, water injected etc, then you will need to man up and use a quality CDI solution just like everyone has used since the mid 1960's!

As I said before its a free world, you can chose to run whatever you like, but I don't like reading your justification saying I am doing something wrong or there is no way the power can be used, cause I like you say what the fuck is the point!!!!..... Remember this is about making FAST & RELIABLE REAL STREET CARS that do not need "power in a can" special fuels, I lead the world in that for rotary & other turbo engines, always have and probably always will

[TitaniumTT]

Originally Posted by mattallac

the aem coils are a little large but doable for my space situation the haltec ls1 coils are a little smaller

Don't waste your time with the LS1 coils, they are miserable little failures.

Originally Posted by C. Ludwig

Skip all variants of the LS1 coil all together. Their output is far from impressive. The only LSx coil I would recommend is the truck coil (the one with the heat sink).

I BELIEVE that's the one with the auto-discharge, so setting it up properly in the ecu is key.... just ask the legions of RX8 owners that blew their engines while cranking it with the BHR upgrade.

Originally Posted by RICE RACING

You will never ever get ANY inductive ignition that will not drop output as a function of rpm *fact*

You will never ever get any inductive ignition that will run a true race spark plug of the coldest heat range from cold start *fact*

You will never ever get any inductive ignition that will fire 50% excess fuel as required in a turbo car, let alone any type of water injection system *fact*

CDI DO NOT create "electrical noise" unless it is a very poor install or fitted by someone who has no idea of CDI systems

But there are times when a CDI is just not needed. Hell, I picked up a whopping 3rwhp when I added a $1200 M&W box. Is that REALLY worth it? NO

Originally Posted by mattallac

rice racing my question is the second jen turbo came with inductive coils why didnt they use a cdi ,i do understand electrical theory and yes a cdi can magnify spark or a msd 6a box will multi spark (only to 3k) .i have ran my old repu on the dyno for testing with and without 6a boxes and there was no hp difference .that was a streetport 13b ,holly 600 ,road race header with dual 2" ,166hp to rear wheels at 7500 rpm.now as for turbo application on a rotary i have not tried a cdi yet. with the stock coils on my rx2 i am at 347 hpp on a mustang dyno at 10 psi.7500 rpm.aem coil is 118 mj ,up to 3.2ms

That's becuase MSD's suck.... it's short for My Spark Died. Your car is probably at such a low BHP rating that a CDI ignition system wouldn't make a difference. It's like putting a triple carbon disc on a stock n/a car.

[RICE RACING]

brian,

how big is your signature block!!!

Jesus!!!

[RETed]

Originally Posted by TitaniumTT

That's becuase MSD's suck.... it's short for My Spark Died. Your car is probably at such a low BHP rating that a CDI ignition system wouldn't make a difference. It's like putting a triple carbon disc on a stock n/a car.

I tend to agree with this statement.
There are two extremes to which this would be the case...
1) The tune is so bad (i.e. too much fuel, ignition timing not optimal) that changing the spark quality does very little to affect power.
2) The tune is optimized for combustion - i.e. BMEP is maxed out - that changing the spark quality does very little to affect power.


It's too bad that the thread took a turn away from the "coils" discussion.

I'll be moving this thread shortly into the Rotary Tech subsection, as this is only remotely connected to FC's.
There is a lot of good info in here.


-Ted

[RICE RACING]

Has anyone here (besides me) actually "tested" coil secondary voltage+current+dwell under full load and rpm on any inductive set up being preached?

^I'd love to hear from you^

The debate/problem is this simple, most people end up doing engine calibrations to suit the ignition system limits and that of related items when running inductive. On CDI you have no such issues in my experience < This problem is exagerated with rpm and higher rotor chamber pressures as some here would know.

[RICE RACING]

A customer of mine back in 2003 or so ran a FC motor with Microwreck ECU (inductive ignitors) with Bosch HEC coils in sequential fire mode (4 coil set up). This set up was water injected for our national dyno competition. This set up would not run without ICE primary voltage ignition boosters. Even so it still needed to run warm up spark plugs then get swapped out for race plugs at the competition........ needless to say it set a record for the most power achieved for a 13B and still drive off the dyno and back home until I engineered & tuned a set up that reset the record wich still stands to this day a few years later, but on a Full CDI equipped car.

Over the years I have tried many inductive set ups, coils, boosters, you name it and in my world of mega power turbocharged monsters they just never ever cut it without some type of limit being reached to get them to fire. Hence my very strong aversion to anything running them, since they just don't work in my experience.

I remember back in my first ever experiments of water injection in 1991 and I almost gave up on the whole idea, cause I just could not get it to work at all using Bosch 008 ignitors and coils. Lucky for me I learned more about ignition systems and realized just how limited non CDI types are. Again for some applications they can be fine, for the OP it may suffice for what he wants to do with his T2 motor and set up.

[TitaniumTT]

Originally Posted by RICE RACING

brian,

how big is your signature block!!!

Jesus!!!

Apparently about 1/2 the size it'll be shortly

Originally Posted by RICE RACING

Has anyone here (besides me) actually "tested" coil secondary voltage+current+dwell under full load and rpm on any inductive set up being preached?

^I'd love to hear from you^

The debate/problem is this simple, most people end up doing engine calibrations to suit the ignition system limits and that of related items when running inductive. On CDI you have no such issues in my experience < This problem is exagerated with rpm and higher rotor chamber pressures as some here would know.

I haven't gone that far, no. I did build a harness so that I could quickly swap out entire ignition systems. So, ran my Bosch Motorsport coils on the dyno. Ran it rich to the point of misfire. Shut it down, strapped on the M&W, ran it again. Cleaned up the misfire, idled like shit, and made an extra 4 rwhp or something like that. So, is it worth the extra $1000.... not on my car it isn't. But that's all pump and 17psi. 30psi and water injected.... well if the coil can't fire the mix, than it's not the right part for the job. That's what I'm getting at. In the real world there are other factors at play other than, this is the best. It has to be used. Bone stock n/a rebuild..... you gonna throw ID injectors in there? Hell no, they can't be utilized so why bother?

I'm gonna go double my sig block now

[RICE RACING]

I remember we spoke about the idle in another thread last year, that can be an issue, but I have found it is system specific (though I have only used about 5 or 7 different CDI brands so can't comment on them all).

You are right, its a horses for courses question. If its down to money and the OP only wants 10psi then he would be mad to fit up a CDI system..... agree.

[mattallac]

oh rr you type with angry fingers ,and in my words the word FUCK was not in the sentence .with that said ,topic stated 10 psi of boost ,so for application induction is the way ,in my dyno shop cdi is only needed for high boost .by reading all you have wrote very carefully i am not in a pissing match with you and appreciate what your Fact is ,but the heart of the matter is application is key,some products are valid for certain situations and when they are not needed its a waste of money. and what do the letters OP mean ?

[RETed]

Originally Posted by mattallac

rice racing my question is the second jen turbo came with inductive coils why didnt they use a cdi ,

RICE RACING mentioned the obvious one about added cost...
There's another reason: reliability.
Most CDI system run in series in terms of electrical circuits.
If the CDI circuit dies, you lose that ignition channel.
This is where the simplicity of inductive (ignition) coils is an advantage.

You have alternate system like the HKS Twin Power, which runs in parallel to your igntion system.
If the HKS Twin Power dies, you don't lose your ignition channel(s).
This advantage can also be a problem...
Sometimes you don't realize that the Twin Power isn't functioning, and this can lead to trouble.
If your set-up requires that you have the Twin Power functioning correctly under full power, and it isn't...well, think about all the fuel being shot into the engine with spark blow-out...

BTW, OP = "Original Poster", which is the person who started the thread, which in this case is...you.


-Ted