Can you make a 20b+20b?

RotaryProphet · 10-04-2009, 10:17 AM

Look into tractor pulls, it's not uncommon for them to couple a pair of big block motors producing shit-tons of power, front to back. It involves a flywheel like toothed disk on the back of the crank (and taking the place of the flywheel/clutch/etc) of the front motor, and in place of pulleys and whatnot on the nose of the crank of the back motor, a duplicate disc. When the motors are positioned front to back in the chassis, the two discs line up, and something similar to a double motorcycle chain is wrapped around them, producing a solid coupling. I don't see any reason this couldn't be done with a pair of rotaries. The back engine will need to have a remote mounted electric water pump, but that's probably a good idea for both of them, and personally I would remove the oil pump from the rear engine also, and use just the front CAS and a standalone ECU (make sure the engines are in sync!) and basically strip the front cover off of the rear motor entirely. Then use a large electric water pump pumping into both engines, and a dry sump oil system pumping into both motors; you could pump into the rear iron where your oil cooler returns.

And flex isn't an issue, because a properly done setup will have -each- motor solid mounted to the chassis 4 times, with front motor mounts on either side, and with a block plate attached do the bellhousing bolt holes in the rear, so the car's frame absorbs any flex.

Then you just treat each engine independently for tuning and whatnot. It's probably worth tuning them separately on an engine dyno, to make sure their power output is reasonably similar, although it won't hurt you if one is; you just won't be at your potential.

Now personally, were I to attempt something so big, I'd go for serious gusto, and pair a couple of 4 rotor peripheral port engines that could crank out 400hp or more NA. An 800hp NA rotary? I would pay money to hear that. The temptation to even mildly turbo it and run double that or more would be pretty terrible, though. (On a side note, the sequential controller I'm working on has plenty of spare inputs and outputs... fully sequential quad turbo, anyone?)

need RX7 · 10-04-2009, 04:13 PM

This thing is going to weigh so much.

But if you go through with it... twin 42Rs. Must be done.

Glass Machine · 10-04-2009, 08:31 PM

Now I don't know about the front and rear configuration haha that seem to be a bit out there and but it would be fun to try.

Well thanks to Phoenix7 I am now looking at doing a warm up car... Factory Five GTM kit car. With a LS7 its around 2350lb, Drop that heavy thing and go with a supercharged ported 20b with aluminum side housings and shoot for the car to be under 2000lbs and as for hp 600+ Yes now that's a Enzo killer!

But hey how long is the core of a 20b?

Phoenix7 · 10-04-2009, 09:39 PM

pimp, should be done much faster than a custom 6-rotor.

need RX7 · 10-04-2009, 10:02 PM

I'm pretty sure the 20B weighs more than a LS7, since a fully dressed REW weighs about as much as an LS1. Although, aluminum plates should offset it some.

Either way, it would be way cooler with a 20B

Glass Machine · 10-04-2009, 10:08 PM

A good friend of mine did the math one time he said that if you do the aluminum plates and lighted rotors it would not be anymore then a 13b... in theory...

Yes it would be much cooler with a 20b in it make it scream like a F1 car not growl like a vet.

But for giving me the idea phoenix i just might have to take a trip down to cal to give you a ride haha. But the only thing now with that GTM it how use the Porsche tranny...

IDEA! Wait till the 16X is out and make a three rotor out of that...

N.RotaryTech · 10-04-2009, 10:09 PM

I think the two engine idea is doable. #1 you don't have to go with the expense of a 3 or 4 or even 6 rotor engine.
Right of the top of my head a way to do it is get two 2-rotor engines, 12a, 13b, etc. get two fwd transmissions (automatics might be easier to link together, as far as controlling them goes) find a way to mate the rotaries to the tranny's. One engine an tranny is in the front of the car with steering, the other engine an tranny is in the rear. Control is used with throttle cables, cables can be used with the auto tranny's, 1 gas tank with maybe 2 fuel pumps, tune the engines the way you want, oh the possibility are endless.
You could set it up where one engine is running at times or have both running at times. It could be rwd, fwd, or awd. And the car will have 50/50 weight distribution.
Great Idea! If only I would attempt it.

***TitaniumTT*** · 10-04-2009, 11:08 PM

Soooooooooooooooo where are you going to lose the extra 350-400 lbs?

Glass Machine · 10-04-2009, 11:28 PM

IDK why I had it in my mind that the LS1/7 where a bit more weight then the 20b. but I still think it could be done... maybe.

RotaryProphet · 10-05-2009, 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by N.RotaryTech

I think the two engine idea is doable. #1 you don't have to go with the expense of a 3 or 4 or even 6 rotor engine.
Right of the top of my head a way to do it is get two 2-rotor engines, 12a, 13b, etc. get two fwd transmissions (automatics might be easier to link together, as far as controlling them goes) find a way to mate the rotaries to the tranny's. One engine an tranny is in the front of the car with steering, the other engine an tranny is in the rear. Control is used with throttle cables, cables can be used with the auto tranny's, 1 gas tank with maybe 2 fuel pumps, tune the engines the way you want, oh the possibility are endless.
You could set it up where one engine is running at times or have both running at times. It could be rwd, fwd, or awd. And the car will have 50/50 weight distribution.
Great Idea! If only I would attempt it.

That's been done before; by putting one of the trannys in drive and one in reverse, a car setup like this won a burnout competition I was at. It was fairly awesome, watching him just sort of rotate in a circle while the wheels turned against each other.

funkspectrum · 10-06-2009, 02:05 AM

I've seen 2 13BTs side by side once with this crazy transmission that bolted to both engines. It was nutty.

***Herblenny*** · 10-06-2009, 04:17 AM

How serious are you about a 4 rotor?? And is your budget really 500K??

Glass Machine · 10-06-2009, 08:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Herblenny

How serious are you about a 4 rotor?? And is your budget really 500K??

4? I did not say anything about 4. I said 6! haha 4 rotor in a GTM or maybe just a 20b was one idea. As for the 500k I said it is doable to shut people up from saying I could not pay for it... when yes I could (I am used to RX7 club where people just shot down ideas even when you just trying to have fun and see what other people think) no this can not be done this min but yes 500k is at reach.

***TitaniumTT*** · 10-06-2009, 09:44 PM

I call shenannigans

Glass Machine · 10-06-2009, 10:26 PM

Yes I am counting chickens before they are hatched... but the joy of land is they stopped making it and this is good. its in a town people want in to and good people from cal keep calling and trying to get it to put condos on. last time they called it was up to 3.5 mil. Sad as all the pride of my dads is in this property so hes not letting it go anytime soon, even at that price. As time goes on the land its worth will be more and more... maybe my dad will sell it or he will leave it to my brother and I after he passes, both ways there is going to be cash. so yes at some point in time I will have alot to blow on doing cars.

if you think or if that makes me sound like I want my dad dead so I can have cash your wrong. I have been trying to get that guy to sell the damn property so he can enjoy his retirement, do all the crap he has always wanted to and stop being like his cheap ass dad and just have some fucking fun and spend it. Its good to save but your 65... what are you waiting for, have some fucking fun! IDK I don't get him.

10-04-2009, 10:17 AM	#16
RotaryProphet Rotary Fanatic Join Date: Sep 2008 iTrader: (0) Posts: 147 Rep Power: 17	Look into tractor pulls, it's not uncommon for them to couple a pair of big block motors producing shit-tons of power, front to back. It involves a flywheel like toothed disk on the back of the crank (and taking the place of the flywheel/clutch/etc) of the front motor, and in place of pulleys and whatnot on the nose of the crank of the back motor, a duplicate disc. When the motors are positioned front to back in the chassis, the two discs line up, and something similar to a double motorcycle chain is wrapped around them, producing a solid coupling. I don't see any reason this couldn't be done with a pair of rotaries. The back engine will need to have a remote mounted electric water pump, but that's probably a good idea for both of them, and personally I would remove the oil pump from the rear engine also, and use just the front CAS and a standalone ECU (make sure the engines are in sync!) and basically strip the front cover off of the rear motor entirely. Then use a large electric water pump pumping into both engines, and a dry sump oil system pumping into both motors; you could pump into the rear iron where your oil cooler returns. And flex isn't an issue, because a properly done setup will have -each- motor solid mounted to the chassis 4 times, with front motor mounts on either side, and with a block plate attached do the bellhousing bolt holes in the rear, so the car's frame absorbs any flex. Then you just treat each engine independently for tuning and whatnot. It's probably worth tuning them separately on an engine dyno, to make sure their power output is reasonably similar, although it won't hurt you if one is; you just won't be at your potential. Now personally, were I to attempt something so big, I'd go for serious gusto, and pair a couple of 4 rotor peripheral port engines that could crank out 400hp or more NA. An 800hp NA rotary? I would pay money to hear that. The temptation to even mildly turbo it and run double that or more would be pretty terrible, though. (On a side note, the sequential controller I'm working on has plenty of spare inputs and outputs... fully sequential quad turbo, anyone?) Last edited by RotaryProphet; 10-04-2009 at 10:20 AM..

10-04-2009, 04:13 PM	#17
need RX7 Clean S4 Nutswinger Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Sterling Heights, MI iTrader: (0) Posts: 485 Rep Power: 17	This thing is going to weigh so much. But if you go through with it... twin 42Rs. Must be done. __________________ -Ted -1986 Mazda RX7 Sport [DD/beater]: engine finally let go at 205k. parts car status. -1986 Mazda RX7 base [resto-mod project]: S5 n/a swap in progress.

10-04-2009, 10:02 PM	#20
need RX7 Clean S4 Nutswinger Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Sterling Heights, MI iTrader: (0) Posts: 485 Rep Power: 17	I'm pretty sure the 20B weighs more than a LS7, since a fully dressed REW weighs about as much as an LS1. Although, aluminum plates should offset it some. Either way, it would be way cooler with a 20B __________________ -Ted -1986 Mazda RX7 Sport [DD/beater]: engine finally let go at 205k. parts car status. -1986 Mazda RX7 base [resto-mod project]: S5 n/a swap in progress.

10-04-2009, 10:08 PM	#21
Glass Machine The Newbie Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Bellevue, WA iTrader: (0) Posts: 18 Rep Power: 0	A good friend of mine did the math one time he said that if you do the aluminum plates and lighted rotors it would not be anymore then a 13b... in theory... Yes it would be much cooler with a 20b in it make it scream like a F1 car not growl like a vet. But for giving me the idea phoenix i just might have to take a trip down to cal to give you a ride haha. But the only thing now with that GTM it how use the Porsche tranny... IDEA! Wait till the 16X is out and make a three rotor out of that... Last edited by Glass Machine; 10-04-2009 at 11:08 PM..

10-04-2009, 11:08 PM	#23
*TitaniumTT* Test Whore - Admin Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Right Behind you son iTrader: (4) Posts: 4,581 Rep Power: 10	Soooooooooooooooo where are you going to lose the extra 350-400 lbs? __________________ -The Angry Stig- DGRR 2009, 2011, 2012 & 2013 - Best FC DEALS GAP!! WOOHOOOO!!!!! 2015 Audi S4 - Samantha - Zero Brap S4 2004 RX8 - Jocelyn - 196rwhp, 19mpg fuel to noise converter 2000 Jeep Cherokee Sport - Wifey mobile - Now with 2.5" OME lift and 30" BFG AT KO's! So it begins 1998 Jeep Cherokee - 5 spd, 4" lift, 33" BFG's - Rotary Tow Vehicle 1988 'Vert - In progress 1988 FC Coupe - Gretchen -The attention whore BEAST! I'm a sick individual, what's wrong with you? I'm pure Evil I'm still insane, in the best possible way. I think Brian's idea of romance is using lube. Your rage caused the meteor strike in Russia. The Antichrist would be proud of his minion. You win with your thread. Most everything It's a truck with a steel gate on the back. Just a statement of fact Motec M820, AIM dash, ported 13B-RE Cosmo, 6-spd trans, 4.3 Torsen, custom twin wg fully divided mani, Custom 4" split into 2x 3" exhaust, Custom HMIC, Custom custom custom custom I like to welder stuff.... No Bolt-ons allowed. Dyno'ed @ Speed1 Tuned by me - 405rwhp on WG.... WM50 cuming soon. *-Angry Motherfcker Mode ENGAGED-**

10-04-2009, 08:31 PM	#18
Glass Machine The Newbie Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Bellevue, WA iTrader: (0) Posts: 18 Rep Power: 0	Now I don't know about the front and rear configuration haha that seem to be a bit out there and but it would be fun to try. Well thanks to Phoenix7 I am now looking at doing a warm up car... Factory Five GTM kit car. With a LS7 its around 2350lb, Drop that heavy thing and go with a supercharged ported 20b with aluminum side housings and shoot for the car to be under 2000lbs and as for hp 600+ Yes now that's a Enzo killer! But hey how long is the core of a 20b?

10-04-2009, 10:09 PM	#22
N.RotaryTech Home-brew Rotary Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: GooseCreek SC iTrader: (0) Posts: 552 Rep Power: 17	I think the two engine idea is doable. #1 you don't have to go with the expense of a 3 or 4 or even 6 rotor engine. Right of the top of my head a way to do it is get two 2-rotor engines, 12a, 13b, etc. get two fwd transmissions (automatics might be easier to link together, as far as controlling them goes) find a way to mate the rotaries to the tranny's. One engine an tranny is in the front of the car with steering, the other engine an tranny is in the rear. Control is used with throttle cables, cables can be used with the auto tranny's, 1 gas tank with maybe 2 fuel pumps, tune the engines the way you want, oh the possibility are endless. You could set it up where one engine is running at times or have both running at times. It could be rwd, fwd, or awd. And the car will have 50/50 weight distribution. Great Idea! If only I would attempt it.

10-04-2009, 11:28 PM	#24
Glass Machine The Newbie Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Bellevue, WA iTrader: (0) Posts: 18 Rep Power: 0	IDK why I had it in my mind that the LS1/7 where a bit more weight then the 20b. but I still think it could be done... maybe.

10-06-2009, 02:05 AM	#26
funkspectrum Know what Nemesis means? Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Santa Rosa, CA iTrader: (0) Posts: 45 Rep Power: 0	I've seen 2 13BTs side by side once with this crazy transmission that bolted to both engines. It was nutty.

10-06-2009, 04:17 AM	#27
*Herblenny* Founder/Administrator/Internet Pitbull :) Join Date: Jan 2008 iTrader: (11) Posts: 644 Rep Power: 10	How serious are you about a 4 rotor?? And is your budget really 500K?? __________________ DGRR 2013 - Year of 13B www.DealsGapRotaryRally.com http://www.facebook.com/Herblenny

10-06-2009, 09:44 PM	#29
*TitaniumTT* Test Whore - Admin Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Right Behind you son iTrader: (4) Posts: 4,581 Rep Power: 10	I call shenannigans __________________ -The Angry Stig- DGRR 2009, 2011, 2012 & 2013 - Best FC DEALS GAP!! WOOHOOOO!!!!! 2015 Audi S4 - Samantha - Zero Brap S4 2004 RX8 - Jocelyn - 196rwhp, 19mpg fuel to noise converter 2000 Jeep Cherokee Sport - Wifey mobile - Now with 2.5" OME lift and 30" BFG AT KO's! So it begins 1998 Jeep Cherokee - 5 spd, 4" lift, 33" BFG's - Rotary Tow Vehicle 1988 'Vert - In progress 1988 FC Coupe - Gretchen -The attention whore BEAST! I'm a sick individual, what's wrong with you? I'm pure Evil I'm still insane, in the best possible way. I think Brian's idea of romance is using lube. Your rage caused the meteor strike in Russia. The Antichrist would be proud of his minion. You win with your thread. Most everything It's a truck with a steel gate on the back. Just a statement of fact Motec M820, AIM dash, ported 13B-RE Cosmo, 6-spd trans, 4.3 Torsen, custom twin wg fully divided mani, Custom 4" split into 2x 3" exhaust, Custom HMIC, Custom custom custom custom I like to welder stuff.... No Bolt-ons allowed. Dyno'ed @ Speed1 Tuned by me - 405rwhp on WG.... WM50 cuming soon. *-Angry Motherfcker Mode ENGAGED-**

10-06-2009, 10:26 PM	#30
Glass Machine The Newbie Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Bellevue, WA iTrader: (0) Posts: 18 Rep Power: 0	Yes I am counting chickens before they are hatched... but the joy of land is they stopped making it and this is good. its in a town people want in to and good people from cal keep calling and trying to get it to put condos on. last time they called it was up to 3.5 mil. Sad as all the pride of my dads is in this property so hes not letting it go anytime soon, even at that price. As time goes on the land its worth will be more and more... maybe my dad will sell it or he will leave it to my brother and I after he passes, both ways there is going to be cash. so yes at some point in time I will have alot to blow on doing cars. if you think or if that makes me sound like I want my dad dead so I can have cash your wrong. I have been trying to get that guy to sell the damn property so he can enjoy his retirement, do all the crap he has always wanted to and stop being like his cheap ass dad and just have some fucking fun and spend it. Its good to save but your 65... what are you waiting for, have some fucking fun! IDK I don't get him. Last edited by Glass Machine; 10-06-2009 at 10:34 PM..