13B Power @ 1 bar absolute pressure, to see what you might have if you MAN UP!

[RICE RACING]

252+ on RR street port
secret set up

[chibikougan]

Thanks for adding some more wrinkles to my brain.

[RICE RACING]

Originally Posted by chibikougan

Thanks for adding some more wrinkles to my brain.

Aim is to make it easy to understand and equalize out all of the conjecture and mis information around porting and what 'magical' gains some styles give.

It is patently obvious that you would have to be fucked in the brain to do a bridge port or worse to a turbo motor the many negatives associated with them no way in hell are made up for in 'mega' gains IF anything the gains are 'meager' as has been shown so simply.

[RICE RACING]

Some may like this little 'off topic' addition.

For historical context we will look at an engine from 1972! (that was run from 1967 in Turbocharged for at your Indy 500). The mighty Offenhauser 159 cube 2.605lt (13B equivalent!) 4 cylinder.



I have a photograph and dyno test details of this engine run on methanol, no IC, and 20% Tolulene blend, it dynoed over 1000bhp on 120inches of mercury = 4bar abs (44psi gauge boost) @ 9000rpm. Did this power to last 500mile race! From 1967 to around 1970 they ran up to 30psi boost and around 800bhp setting... again fairly reliably.

= about 250bhp in NA form

It's a bit of a JOKE that a 13B rotary is such nugget box and about 40+ years later you still cant meet the power density with Intercoolers, EFI, all kinds of stuff~! and no where near the reliability!!!!!

[RICE RACING]

Posted in another thread, needs to be here !

Originally Posted by chibikougan

What VBOX do you recommend the average poofter?

Standard unit then add peripherals as needed?

You can buy a Performance box and a basic input module and do stuff like this easy (was recorded with a VBOX Mini and MIM01).



Here is the fact v fiction ANALysis that goes along with the above The one the only, widely copied, NEVER EQUALED !!!
No Howard Coleman one line spaced un readable calculations LOL! Only stuff that works and does not blow up every second day LOL

[RICE RACING]

Here is a sheet I made in deevelopment of RICESP and a few other cars I work on... these are actual figures!

THe power to 1 bar boost ~ 1 atmosphere is easy to work back on the sheet but for you here on internet land just divide the power buy the MAP figure and will give you the NA hp as per topic of the thread etc ........

[RICE RACING]

And on Don Mega Kill Mode, still on pump petrol and with WM50 jizz spec RR set up.... running ~****cc injectors (equiv)... well through jizz injection, but this is classified info cuuunts......

[Mazdabater]

Wait so you've hit 65psi and maxxed out your injectors???

[RICE RACING]

Originally Posted by Mazdabater

Wait so you've hit 65psi and maxxed out your injectors???

That happened on 4.6 bar or so but I run some different settings and still use similar injectors, just different operating conditions for them, and WM50 accounts for some of the difference. I don't show those figures but I have a sheet floating around that details some of it...... just not in this thread *more complex sheet of the rotary formulas one shown for ND4SPD a few posts up*

[sa22c]

Go on break my heart.

My guess is about 313BHP somewhere between 6000 and 7000. Something like 170BHP per 1 bar absolute.

There was some uphill gradient involved, maybe 10 meter climb at most.

[Barry Bordes]

Hey Peter,

We are having a Global Warming snow storm in New Orleans. Go figure.
Everything is shut down so I thought I would contribute.

Probably apples and oranges as far as taking data compared to your system.
Mine from the TFX combustion testing (see attached).

My daily driver set-up:
13B-COSMO (Judge Ito street ported)
peak power @ about 7800rpm
3" exhaust 1 muffler (Racing Beat single)
Cool intake box with 9" K&N.
and either fitted with T04s or T04z both use a 1.0 A/R .
9.0:1 compression ratio and about 38 deg C charge temp.


@ 15 boost T04s 50/50 WM injection (pre turbo and post intercooler).
it made 492 bhp @ 7730 rpm

(15/14.5) = 1.034
1.034 + 1 = 2.034 bar absolute pressure
492 / 2.034 = 242 bhp
Works out to 242 bhp @ engine N/A


at 18 psi and the T04z 50/50 WM injection and optimized ignition advance it made
580bhp @ 7854 rpm engine power

(18/14.5) = 1.241
1.241 + 1 = 2.241 bar absolute pressure
580 / 2.241 = 258.8 bhp
Works out to 258.8bhp @ engine N/A

[RICE RACING]

Thanks for posting that information up, the more the better........

[RICE RACING]

[QUOTE=Barry Bordes;274121]Hey Peter,

We are having a Global Warming snow storm in New Orleans. Go figure.
Everything is shut down so I thought I would contribute.

Probably apples and oranges as far as taking data compared to your system.
Mine from the TFX combustion testing (see attached).

My daily driver set-up:
13B-COSMO (Judge Ito street ported)
peak power @ about 7800rpm
3" exhaust 1 muffler (Racing Beat single)
Cool intake box with 9" K&N.
and either fitted with T04s or T04z both use a 1.0 A/R .
9.0:1 compression ratio and about 38 deg C charge temp.


@ 15 boost T04s 50/50 WM injection (pre turbo and post intercooler).
it made 492 bhp @ 7730 rpm

(15/14.5) = 1.034
1.034 + 1 = 2.034 bar absolute pressure
492 / 2.034 = 242 bhp
Works out to 242 bhp @ engine N/A


at 18 psi and the T04z 50/50 WM injection and optimized ignition advance it made
580bhp @ 7854 rpm engine power

(18/14.5) = 1.241
1.241 + 1 = 2.241 bar absolute pressure
580 / 2.241 = 258.8 bhp
Works out to 258.8bhp @ engine N/A





*Personally your figures are way too high since you are not taking into account friction or if you are underestimating it? in the software deriving the bhp? thus it would be good to actually measure the 'brake' power directly rather than software estimation? (my thoughts on it) based off my experience and engine combos listed already that are well known.
This is where testing it with a VBOX (if you don't trust 'dyno's' would help)*


So this is indicated power of a single cycle, do you have a mean bhp? (bhp = iP-fP) over at least 1 second that you can average to confirm a 'statistical average of say at least ~100 cycles' mean pressure acting and thus power level for the sake of comparison to steady state measurement principles.

Thanks.

p.s. Have you ever tested your car for brake power on any system other than this to validate what it is saying you have? How are you or it measuring the frictional power (fP) loss in the engine????, you have the 'indicated power' through pressure from what I can see you posted, but its not what is coming out of the engine (brake horse power), like to know some more on how you derive your power figure? For others who don't know what I am on about here is a Laymans link > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Testing..._of_IC_engines

[Barry Bordes]

Peter,
Yes probably apples and oranges.... but I have been trying to optimize low boost settings.
This can be different from high boost tuning. Let me explain.


The TFX Engine Technology system derives its readings from pressure inside the rotor chamber. It compares the volume at each degree of eccentric rotation to the pressure readings at each degree. So we have pressure (psi) times area of the rotor face times eccentric offset which giving torque.
I am not sure if frictional forces are figured into their HP formulas but they are incorporated in the IMEP so it would seem that that would cover HP also.

IMEP is my normal tool for comparing my tuning runs. With normal "forum info timing" the mean effective pressure averaged a little over 200 psi and peak pressures of around 650 psi. This has improved to over 300 psi IMEP and 1250 psi Peak Pressure by positioning peak at 45 degrees ATDC.

But as boost goes up peak pressure becomes the limiting factor. The only way we can know the material limits of the rotary becomes a very hard lesson.
Once we get to this peak pressure limit we have to retard the ignition.

So any correction to NA as you are doing will show a loss in power compared to having the peak pressure at 45 degrees ATDC at lower boost.

Barry

*Personally your figures are way too high since you are not taking into account friction or if you are underestimating it? in the software deriving the bhp? thus it would be good to actually measure the 'brake' power directly rather than software estimation? (my thoughts on it) based off my experience and engine combos listed already that are well known.


This is where testing it with a VBOX (if you don't trust 'dyno's' would help)*


So this is indicated power of a single cycle, do you have a mean bhp? (bhp = iP-fP) over at least 1 second that you can average to confirm a 'statistical average of say at least ~100 cycles' mean pressure acting and thus power level for the sake of comparison to steady state measurement principles.
Thanks.

Yes it shows HP for all cycles and the highest RPM is usually the highest HP.


p.s. Have you ever tested your car for brake power on any system other than this to validate what it is saying you have? How are you or it measuring the frictional power (fP) loss in the engine????, you have the 'indicated power' through pressure from what I can see you posted, but its not what is coming out of the engine (brake horse power), like to know some more on how you derive your power figure?

No, only a Gtech Pro.

[RICE RACING]

If you can clarify with them how they account for the fP and derive the bhp from only measured IMEP that would be appreciated.

I have done plenty with indicator PV diagrams, but we always directly measured fP to then calculate bhp directly. I just could not see how you have done that and its not clear from your posted program interface thus the question

Till then its not comparable.

Forum timing, yes I hear you lol.

MBT (minimum best timing) is a phrase I coined for rotaries, not many people understand it, MBT (mean best torque) with petrol and WI in conventional terms ............. good luck LOL.

What I was asking for the system you use is if you could hold steady state at 7800rpm and average out a hundred cycles I'd be interested to see the 'mean' pressure to take out cycle to cycle variations. Is that possible the way you test?