TitaniumTT's I hope I make it to DGRR '09 Build

[TitaniumTT]

Yeah, BIG time warpage. I haven't heard from Tim yet as to how bad they are, but picking that shit out of the primary was a pretty good indication that they're fucked. And if the combined AFR's were ~ 13.5+ imagine what the front only was if the rear was pretty spot on. I'm thinking 15-16 under 15-20psi. A little frightening. Regardless, I called Laura and have a set of seals and springs on their way to me now. Im planning on picking up my cryo'ed parts on thursday/friday and will hopefully have a long block my Tuesday, so back up and running by the 8th and maybe make Pocono on the 20th.

I may make sweet sweet love to the exhaust ports

[EJayCe996]

*cough*ceramic*cough*...... this isn't where I parked my car...

[TitaniumTT]

It was rec'd to me to use the RA Supers so that's what I went with the first time and the second as well. We'll see.....

I've never really heard anything too special about the ceramics. Mostly internet rumors and myths and no real experience.

What's your take on them?

[EJayCe996]

Well given the properties of ceramics, in general, they can withstand a lot of heat and aren't exactly something that warp easy (most will average in the 2500*F range and special types well over 5,000*). But on the other hand, depending on the grade/type of ceramic, they can be extremely brittle which is the part I'm still trying to figure out why those few that are running ceramics and have detonated on them slightly and had no damage are giving credit to the ceramic for not breaking like steel seals probably would. The main issue is none of the ceramic seal makers will divulge the technical information of the construction of them.

I'm actually amazed I remember any of this from my science classes

[TitaniumTT]

The price is something that also causes me "concern." Breaking a set of $280 seals is, not ok but not tragic. If I lost a set of $1800 seals.... I would kill. Actually Kill.

From what I understand,
NRS lowered thier price to about $1,200 for a set of seals and springs
Ceramics give much better compression than steels before being broken in, but I haven't heard anything of what the comp is like after bedding the engine in. Actually, I got very similar results to the ceramics with the last engine I built - ~130psi.
When they do break, the just disintegrate leaving the housing in-tact.

I dunno, maybe I'll try them eventually, but not with this engine. I'm not looking for ridiculous amounts of power from a teeny tiny turbo cranked to 30psi and overheating the shit out of everything.

Meh, I'll talk to Dave when I'm there next.

[EJayCe996]

Originally Posted by TitaniumTT

I dunno, maybe I'll try them eventually, but not with this engine. I'm not looking for ridiculous amounts of power from a teeny tiny turbo cranked to 30psi and overheating the shit out of everything.

[vex]

Originally Posted by TitaniumTT

The price is something that also causes me "concern." Breaking a set of $280 seals is, not ok but not tragic. If I lost a set of $1800 seals.... I would kill. Actually Kill.

From what I understand,
NRS lowered thier price to about $1,200 for a set of seals and springs
Ceramics give much better compression than steels before being broken in, but I haven't heard anything of what the comp is like after bedding the engine in. Actually, I got very similar results to the ceramics with the last engine I built - ~130psi.
When they do break, the just disintegrate leaving the housing in-tact.

I dunno, maybe I'll try them eventually, but not with this engine. I'm not looking for ridiculous amounts of power from a teeny tiny turbo cranked to 30psi and overheating the shit out of everything.

Meh, I'll talk to Dave when I'm there next.

Depending on the seals construction will dictate the disintigration characteristics. The brittle-ness of the seal itself will only come into question when the elastic deformation stress is exceeded. Here's an example of a probably ceramic make up and stress strain curve
http://www.azom.com/Details.asp?ArticleID=3016


As you notice the elogation percentage is extremely low when dealing with the elastic deformation portion of the curve. These of course are in the tensile strength directions and for our purposes we would need to see the compressive strength readings and deformations. This however would appear to be valuable data as ceramics usually have much higher numbers when comparing their compressive strength (stress/strain) and their tensile strength (Much on the orders of magnitude).

[TitaniumTT]

Originally Posted by FC3S Murray

1800 for seals would be hard to justify. NOW if I made over 6 figures a year then no biggie. Uncle Sam pays me well but not THAT well.

BTW man, when you shipped those housings, did you buy the signiture verification as well? Need to know if I need to be home when they arrive. Thanks bud.

Yeah, if you're competing and need every advantage regardless of cost, then sure. You gotta pay to play. Fine, but for a street car? I can't see the expense.

Yeah, I bought everything, always do, sig veri, ins, tracking..

Originally Posted by EJayCe996

Instead, I'm using two tiny turbo's cranked to 15-20 and looking for 400 wheel. Highest sequential rwhp that I've ever seen has been 380, and Dave actually tuned that car. We wanna break that.

Originally Posted by vex

Depending on the seals construction will dictate the disintigration characteristics. The brittle-ness of the seal itself will only come into question when the elastic deformation stress is exceeded. Here's an example of a probably ceramic make up and stress strain curve
http://www.azom.com/Details.asp?ArticleID=3016


As you notice the elogation percentage is extremely low when dealing with the elastic deformation portion of the curve. These of course are in the tensile strength directions and for our purposes we would need to see the compressive strength readings and deformations. This however would appear to be valuable data as ceramics usually have much higher numbers when comparing their compressive strength (stress/strain) and their tensile strength (Much on the orders of magnitude).

So the english translation is they're stronger

But seriously, are we talking 10% stronger when detonated, 50% 100%?

[vex]

Originally Posted by TitaniumTT

Yeah, if you're competing and need every advantage regardless of cost, then sure. You gotta pay to play. Fine, but for a street car? I can't see the expense.

Yeah, I bought everything, always do, sig veri, ins, tracking..



Instead, I'm using two tiny turbo's cranked to 15-20 and looking for 400 wheel. Highest sequential rwhp that I've ever seen has been 380, and Dave actually tuned that car. We wanna break that.



So the english translation is they're stronger

But seriously, are we talking 10% stronger when detonated, 50% 100%?

Let me look up some stress/strain for carbon steel. I'm honestly surprised that stainless steel isn't used for seals...

[FC3S Murray]

1800 for seals would be hard to justify. NOW if I made over 6 figures a year then no biggie. Uncle Sam pays me well but not THAT well.

BTW man, when you shipped those housings, did you buy the signiture verification as well? Need to know if I need to be home when they arrive. Thanks bud.

[vex]

Yield Strength (MPa) Ultimate Strength (MPa) **From Wiki**
Structural steel ASTM A36 steel 250 400
Steel, API 5L X65[1] 448 531
Steel, high strength alloy ASTM A514 690 760
Stainless steel AISI 302 - Cold-rolled 520 860
Cast iron 4.5% C, ASTM A-48 130 200
Titanium alloy (6% Al, 4% V) 830 900
Tungsten No Yeild 1,510
Silicon carbide (SiC) N/A 3,440
Sapphire (Al2O3) N/A 1,900
Silicon, monocrystalline (m-Si) N/A 7,000

Structural steel at different temperatures.



It's pretty accurate in how you are able to read them.

These however are all in elongation. You'll notice however that when you have a rather high plastic deformation stress you'll have a much smaller strain alotment. This means that the higher the stress the material is able to withstand the less able it is to deform under load.

[vex]

I'll have to break out my old school materials book in a little while.
More info:
http://www-g.eng.cam.ac.uk/125/now/m...IE/charts.html

[need RX7]

I wish I could understand this stuff I am severely mathematically challenged

[vex]

Just look at the graphs and pay attention to the numbers on the bottom. The numbers on the bottom is the strain which for all intents and purposes is change in length/original length. So if you have a .0002 it means there was an overall increase in length during the tensile (stretching) testing. The elastic deformation is the stress that can be applied to the material and still have it return to it's original form and shape. Plastic deformation is what occurs when you exceed a specific point and there... wow, I typed this last night and completely forgot about it.

Anyways there's a point where the material will always return to normal, anything beyond that point the material will deform and eventually break.

[TitaniumTT]

Stainless is kind of a shitty material to work with and when you heat it, it likes to move ALOT. WAY more than any other allow that I've ever welded. I dunno, maybe I'll give the ceramics a try, but not anytime soon.

SOOOOOOOO - Got some interesting news from Tim today - apparently my injectors weren't the culprit. It's really a shame that my FP sender puked that fateful day. It could've been a fuel pressure issue all along. I do feel better knowing that the injectors are ok though. Even though I might be replacing them with some better spray pattern injectors. This is of course if I can't get that silky smooth idle back. Whatever, time will tell. So I think I'll be picking up my cryo parts on Monday which means back to breakin by the end of next week? Maybe..... Or maybe I'll start my hood instead :devil: