TitaniumTT's I hope I make it to DGRR '09 Build

[TitaniumTT]

I think he's more worried about the fuel sticking to one runner more than the other, or the air distribution that we know is uneven causing uneven fuel distribution.

BDC's setup uses nozzles which I think are a little less accurate than injectors. If I were to do a aux injector system I would have everything controled via the Motec so you're not having a piggyback system working against the main efi setup. Just my analness I guess but I'd be paranoid of one of the gain or boost settings getting a little messed up and popping an engine.

Aux injection does have it's place though and I like the benefits that it gives.

[FC3S Murray]

Man BDC's set-up looks crazy!

I feel you Brian on the minor difference probably between 13.0:1 and 13.5:1 EGTs. Wish we had some longer tuning timeline from old school owners on ALOT of rotary tuning mysteries. Damn V8 guys have so so much background information in regards to tip's n tricks and super secret power makers lol

[NoDOHC]

Actually, the V8 tricks are more recipes than tricks (ask me, piston engines is where I cut my teeth). The general principles are identical for piston engines and rotary engines.

The availability of aftermarket parts for Chevy, Dodge and Ford V8s is what really makes them shine.

Still, 100 Hp/Liter is difficult for V8s too (my rotary achieved that with all stock components).

Rules of thumb are lacking in the rotary world, if I had been taking a 350 SBC to the dyno, I would have set the AFR to 13:0, the timing to 38 degrees BTDC above 3000 rpm (inertial advance below that) and taken it to see what it made. I might have tweaked the timing a couple of degrees and moved 0.2 AFR in either direction, but there would have very few power gains.

Interesting enough, my rotary made peak power at 13:1 AFR and 38 degrees BTDC timing (kinda strange, huh). If took a lot more adjustment and tuning to get there though, as I started with way too much timing (my ear told me it was better) and way too much fuel (12:1).

Well now I know what auxiliary injection is. We call it chemical cooling. Nowadays, typically NOS or methanol (even water) is sprayed on the intercooler. Some people actually inject the NOS into the intake air (wet kit, obviously) and mix insane quantities of fuel with it (which cools the charge air significantly). I see this relatively frequently on high-boost turbocharged or supercharged piston engines (although less these days with the availability of good intercoolers).

With diesels, they use wet propane kits to achieve additional charge density and more fuel. This comes at a cost though, as the engine now has fuel in the intake air, introducing the chance of detonation (or pre-ignition, actually).

Years back, people with too high of compression ratios would use water injection kits in the intake to cool the charge (they were a lot of trouble though, as the engine could rust if they were used to recently before shutdown).

edit:

I have to explain my problems with the secondary injectors:

What bothers me about them is that the air must go around a turn after the fuel has been injected into it. This causes the fuel to tend to fall out of the air as the fuel droplets are heavy and the air molecules are not nearly as much so. The inertia of the fuel drags it out of the air stream (which avoids the wall due to sonic reflections and other boundary layer effects) Thus, there is always a 'puddle' of fuel laying at the outside of the turn. This makes the fueling much less precise, especially during throttle transitions.

The ideal injection situation is where the fuel is injected into the air such that it is aimed at the inside of the turn, making the combined splash and boundary effects mix the air and fuel effectively. If the secondary injectors were mounted in the end plate so that the fan from them hit on the inside of the secondary port, I think the fuel mixing (uniformity of the fuel charge) would be better.

On piston engines, they cured these problems with rich-running carbs, heated intake manifolds and low compression ratios (pre-ignition not an issue). Now that they have port injection, they do not need heated intake manifolds, etc. as the fuel is spraying on the inside of the turn going into the intake valve.

[TitaniumTT]

pfffffffffffftttt!!!! HAAHAHAHAA haahahahaaa haahahaahahhahhaa:lol2:

Leave it to Summit. If I had to do it over again I would have gone with Earls or Aeromotive or some other name brand. My logic was I know Jegs isn't casting them, they're buying them from somebody and slapping thier name on them. I don't know who though. FWIW, the summit brand of fittings is the same as the Jegs. I just wish I knew who was casting them

[TitaniumTT]

I'm hoping by 10/ Honestly though there's a ton of cleanup in the map that needs to be done up high in the boost. We need to do this because the last fuel filter was clogging as we were tuning, so we were dumping fuel in because we were lacking flow. Now everythings pigassstink rich. By mid afternoon though we should be shooting for the big numbers and playing with the sequentials.

[EJayCe996]

Any word on the analysis of the crap clogging your fuel system?

[TitaniumTT]

Nothing back from the lab yet............ that might be becuase I didn't send it out yet though Only now I have 2 filters to send out.

Antman showed again today and got to see the big numbers

402.77RWHP @ 13.75lbs of boost running .85L. In Daves words, we didn't tune for it, but she gave it to us

Got her strapped down and we rocked through the cleanup then on one pull she went a skoche lean on the top. Nothing alarming, but enough to raise an eyebrow. So we decided to smoke a cig and let her cool for 10 minutes and then go for the big un. On our break I mentioned that we should check the FPSI again as that last run kinda concerned me. Dave agreed and when we checked the logs, the PSI dropped off again towards the top - MOTHERFUCKER!!!!!!!!!!! I've got the FPSI displayed onthe dash and after each and every run Dave would take a peek and they would ALWAYS go right back to 36psi, right where they should be, just isn't flowing enough up high though.

So we wheeled her forward, up on the lift and 10 minutes later the new filter was in, I never leave home without one now, how eff'ed up is that. Blowing through this was was laborius but not like the last one. The last one also was allowing 38psi through and the one today let 45psi though. So with the new filter in we strapped her back down, made a pull, cleaned a few things up, made another pull and on the 2nd pull with the NEW FILTER IN the psi dropped off again to 49psi when it should be at 55psi. So, I'm going to pull the pump, send that out, replace the sock, get the filters tested, and sleep in my garage with a loaded 12ga semi-auto Benelli and my German Shepard. Dave is convinced someone is pouring shit in my tank.

So it was bittersweet.... there were no congrats, no hi-fives, no bottle of Single Barrell Jack to be passed around just pissed off even though we broke 400hp on a set of stock REW twins, with another pound to add. I think that's a record though. I know there was a guy in jersey with a white FD, running a 1/2 bridge or full bridge making 402 but pushing 18 psi. The turbo's lasted 300 miles IIRC. We're happy, but not at the end just yet.... DAMNIT. And we REALLY want to play with the twins. We're using duty cycle control, like 50% across the board but the solenoid doesn't activate until 120kpa, so every time we up the boost, we're upping it across the board. On the drive home tonight I broke the tires loose in 2nd around 5500rpm with 3/4 throttle. The girl is PEPPY!

On the plus side I finally got a fast reacting AIT sensor from Motec installed. I wanted to get the one from dudemann but without knowing the calibration table, it was unknown if it would work. Regardless... when boost hits the AIT on the charge pipe pre-intercooler go from 108*F to 245*F and the AIT going into the engine go from 77.2*F to 80.6* That was on the 403RWHP run.... SICK!

[NoDOHC]

Congratulations!

You made the 400 WHp without ever getting to your max of 15 psi.

Maybe that will encourage more people to tune a little closer to the edge.

I am sorry about your dirty fuel issues, maybe you should pull the tank and replace it with a fuel cell or something. (A good cleaning may be the ticket).

Maybe you could disconnect the Fuel fill tube and cap the tank when it is in the garage, so that anything that the neighbor puts in the fill will fall on the ground and not in the tank.

Where did you find such a good intercooler? I don't know what your ambient temperature was, but 245 F to 80.6 F? That is amazing. You are still running the V mount? Maybe standard front mount intercoolers heat soak from the radiator or something, because I have never seen an intercooler that effective (except for maybe on a 20 F day, which I doubt if the no-boost-temperature was in the 100s).

[TitaniumTT]

Thanks.

Honestly though..... we weren't looking for .85L We were tuning for a little richer, not much but a little. There is a HUGE jump in power on my car from .75 - .8L, much smoother torque curve, virtually no misfires, my engine seems to LOVE good clean AFR's. 12 seems to be the magic number but I'm hesitant to go there until I get this fuel issue solved. I like the safety margin even if it costs me 50hp+. Last time we started with the car running ~.75 and lower. Cleaned her up to .8 and gained 50-60 hp. I think I'm going to put some LS2 Truck coils in over the winter. THey have something like 250% of the millijoules that the LS1 coils have.

It's not the tank. The tank that's in there is the cleanest S4/5 tank that I have ever seen, and I've cleaned it by hand myself on two seperate occasions and both times, nothing has come out on a clean papertowel. I don't think it's station related either because I've been tanking up at all different stations, although all of them have been Mobils or Exxons. Disconnecting the fuel fill is a PITA too, I know, I've removed it for cleaning in the past. If anything I'll get a locking filler and I'm going to look into some security camera's because it's getting a little too cold to sleep in the shop

Still running the V-mount, although it's really more of an H-mount I guess. I think the ductin is the key though. I suck up bugs that get trapped in the seem between the core and the frameing/ducting. Ambient temps were around 60-65* The intercooler is a brand that I will NOT specify publically. While it's a good intercooler, I fricken HATE the company that built it. They screwed me so badly, I refuse to do anymore business with them or give them any free advertising. I will say that Griffin and this other co claim the same effeicency with thier cores. I went with the other co for time and cost. They said they could deliver the custom intercooler in a few days, but when it arrived (and I had it 2-day aired for something ridiculous like $85) the end tanks were wrong. So when I called them to tell them they made a mistake, they wouldn't own up to it. It was a battle to get them to take it back and build me the proper one. Then I had to pay for shipping to get it out to them, and pay for shipping to get the correct one sent back to me. So in total I paid close to $200 for shipping for a $450 intercooler and had to wait a few weeks.

When my Griffin rad showed up, it had the wrong size outlet, 1 & 3/4" as opposed to 1 & 1/2. When I called them, they were all set to take it back, pay for the shipping and expedite a new one to me. They were so helpful on a rad that they would have a VERY hard time reselling (where as the intercooler was basically a generic front mount setup) that I decided to see if I could stretch a hose over the outlet. I could and kept the rad to sort of help them out. Honestly, since I can't completely remove the name from the intercooler (which I specifically asked them NOT to spraypaint on) the last thing that I'll probable do is replace the intercooler that I have with one grom Griffin, or just buy a Garret or Spearco core and fab my own tanks. But if you're looking for a good intercooler, I'd go strait to Griffin.

The AIT's are ridiculous though. One log showed a 120* jump in charge temps with a 1.7* jump in AIT's... lower boost level. The other interesting thing about the charge temps..... apparently we're close but not to the end of the turbo's effeicency. I was told that 300* is about where you want to stop.

[EJayCe996]

Originally Posted by TitaniumTT

Still running the V-mount, although it's really more of an H-mount I guess. I think the ductin is the key though. I suck up bugs that get trapped in the seem between the core and the frameing/ducting. Ambient temps were around 60-65* The intercooler is a brand that I will NOT specify publically. While it's a good intercooler, I fricken HATE the company that built it. They screwed me so badly, I refuse to do anymore business with them or give them any free advertising. I will say that Griffin and this other co claim the same effeicency with thier cores. I went with the other co for time and cost. They said they could deliver the custom intercooler in a few days, but when it arrived (and I had it 2-day aired for something ridiculous like $85) the end tanks were wrong. So when I called them to tell them they made a mistake, they wouldn't own up to it. It was a battle to get them to take it back and build me the proper one. Then I had to pay for shipping to get it out to them, and pay for shipping to get the correct one sent back to me. So in total I paid close to $200 for shipping for a $450 intercooler and had to wait a few weeks.

When my Griffin rad showed up, it had the wrong size outlet, 1 & 3/4" as opposed to 1 & 1/2. When I called them, they were all set to take it back, pay for the shipping and expedite a new one to me. They were so helpful on a rad that they would have a VERY hard time reselling (where as the intercooler was basically a generic front mount setup) that I decided to see if I could stretch a hose over the outlet. I could and kept the rad to sort of help them out. Honestly, since I can't completely remove the name from the intercooler (which I specifically asked them NOT to spraypaint on) the last thing that I'll probable do is replace the intercooler that I have with one grom Griffin, or just buy a Garret or Spearco core and fab my own tanks. But if you're looking for a good intercooler, I'd go strait to Griffin.

That's good to know because they are on my "parts list" for my rad and IC when I finally get around to my V/H-mount setup when I upgrade to a bigger turbo.

[FC3S Murray]

AWESOME buddy! I really wish you could find this fuel issue! Man it is like a "dick tease".

You need to post some vids in the car and someone on the road with you flying by.

Almost there bro. Great job!!

[TitaniumTT]

Originally Posted by FC3S Murray

AWESOME buddy! I really wish you could find this fuel issue! Man it is like a "dick tease".

I think I may have found the issue tonight.......... here's what I did

Pulled the pump and hooked up a wire to both the ground on the hanger and the hot on the lid. Checked Bat voltage - 12.12V. Turned the pump on and probed those two wires so I could get a reading of what the pump was seeing with it in fuel and running - 11.12V. Not bad but still something not 100%. I've got a 10GA wire going from the bat to a 20A breaker like 6" away, and then the same 10GA running to the relay on the shock tower, and then 10GA running to the connector which I replaced with a weatherpack. So there is stock wiring from the connector to the pump. Not much but it's still some.

Next I hooked up an Ammeter and ran the pump. 12.51A. This is not good. It should be around 8-9A. This is interesting. I jumped the ground directly to the battery and got the exact same A reading. OK, so it ain't my wiring although there is a loss somewhere, most likely just the resistance of the connectors, breakers, relays ect ect.

The sock looks a little meh so I pulled the sock to eliminate that as a source of vac and got a reading of 12.46A. OK, so a questionable sock only adds a slight amount of resistance. This is interesting. Questionable meaning you pull the think out of the tank and fuel is still being held in said sock.

OK, well, maybe that filter really is clogged. But what if it isn't? That's a TON of A's for a pump to suck down. Alright, we need to know without a doubt that this filter is fucking me. So what do I do you ask - go on, ask. Alright alright, I'll tell you. I have a spare 250psi sender that I use for my comp tests. I dug through my binS worth of fittings and found a -6 male to -6 male with an 1/8"npt port, an 1/8" to -4 fitting. A -4 female to -4 female hose, a -4 to 1/8"FNPT and put my sender on the end of that. Then I got a coupler and spliced this hodge podge contraption between the hardline and the filter BEFORE the filter. The sender happens to be the same as my Oil Pressure sender ('cuz I get like 125 psi >3500) and turned the pump on. Read 43.2psi at the regulator. A little high. Even more interesting is that it read 42.6 - yes Forty-two and 6/10 psi BEFORE the filter. Interesting. There is a negative pressure drop across the filter. This could be because of a few things. The Fuel PSI sender is a 0-100 psi unit so the resolution on the 250 psi unit isn't nearly as accurate becuase they are using the same 5v. There is also some sender accuracy. I don't know what the autometer (Delco) stuff is but it's OEM so it should be pretty damn accurate. So....... interestingly enough it appears that the filters are only partly to blame. I think the Cosmo pump that I've been using just isn't up to snuff for the pressures that I'm asking of it. I'm going to borrow my buddies Walbro tomorrow and toss it in and do the same tests. I know that the Walbro 392 HP draws just ~8A at ~57G/hr @ 12v. At the highest pressure I'm asking for it draws ~<9A and flows about 52G/hr @ 12V. At 13.5V it should flow ~62 Gal/hr. Assuming 100% duty cycle I need 55G/h. So the Walbro 392hp will actually definately work for me.

The Cosmo pump has been tested to put out 66 G/hr @ 43psi HOWEVER, it was never really designed to put out the kinds of pressures that I'm asking for. I wonder if the pump isn't just falling FLAT on it's face on the higher levels of PSI. Also, this is with a filter with 150 miles on it. I know for a FACT that I have had outright clogged filters and socks from the epoxy coated tank. I wonder if all the shit that went through there didn't fuck up the pump itself. Also, lets not forget that the pressure that I was getting before the filter was never recorded until now. It's possible that the line pressure got into the 80's. The pump way overworked got hot and FUBAR'ed itself. All sorts of shit could've happened but the Cosmo pump that I have, just isn't up to snuff right now. That's also evident by changing the filter yesterday, making one pull and on the second it just went to shit. We spent probably 3 hours on the dyno making pull after pull after pull. It's entirely possible that the pump "heatsoaked" if you will.

I'm rambling, I'm gonna finish my drink and take a shower.

Fucking cars...........................................

Originally Posted by FC3S Murray

You need to post some vids in the car and someone on the road with you flying by.

Almost there bro. Great job!!

Yesh, yeah we do. Hopefully I'll have a little time to build a mount for an in car camera. That would be awesome. But I definately need to get a couple fly bys. A good buddy of mine has a slightly tweaked MS6. We were pulling onto the highway and he heard me bust loose some tires so he punched it. We got up to about 120. His sister was in my car and we were following. I laughed and said, you see all that black smoke coming from your brothers car? He's got his foot through the floor and I'm @ 1/4 throttle The car pulls like a frieght train. Need som vids of fun shit for sure

[Turbo II Rotor]

Wow, 400 eh? Congrats on another awesome achievement. I can't believe your fuel contamination issue is still ongoing. If it isn't some obscure rubber seal breaking down or your neighbor I'd say electrolysis in the fuel system maybe? I'd wonder if the ethanol in the fuel is allowing the fuel to become conductive and eating the insides of your fuel rails or something.

Got a graph for that number? I wanna see how low they come on.

Btw, the Tuesday night meet is dying down due to the cold so maybe we could find a weekend meet that works for both of us. If not there is always DGRR '10, which I'll definitely be attending.

[TitaniumTT]

Originally Posted by EJayCe996

That's good to know because they are on my "parts list" for my rad and IC when I finally get around to my V/H-mount setup when I upgrade to a bigger turbo.

I would buy everything that I could from Griffin, I love those guys. I don't know if they make oilcoolers though. The next car I build - FD - will have as many heat exchangers from Griffin as possible. I do love my Mocal oil coolers though. I was seeing 139* oil temps on the drive out yesterday. Highway, about 55* ambient.

Originally Posted by Turbo II Rotor

Wow, 400 eh? Congrats on another awesome achievement. I can't believe your fuel contamination issue is still ongoing. If it isn't some obscure rubber seal breaking down or your neighbor I'd say electrolysis in the fuel system maybe? I'd wonder if the ethanol in the fuel is allowing the fuel to become conductive and eating the insides of your fuel rails or something.

It's driving me fucking crazy too. Although I think at this point the contamination is gone but the damage is done and the pump is now fucked. THe intervals between cloggings are getting mush shorter. Interestingly enough I was on the phone with Aeromotive today and telling them about the black shit in the filter. He says, it could be the pump getting hot or sluggish and the armatures grinding crap off the magnets. I've seen that but you'd have a whole different set of problems if that was the case. Awesome, I totally discounted that comment until I A tested the Cosmo pump.

Originally Posted by Turbo II Rotor

Got a graph for that number? I wanna see how low they come on.

Sorry Scott, I got nothing. We all just sorted stared milling around all pissed off. Still running NS too but the boost comes on as soon as you hit the gas. Dave was punching her @ 3500rpm & ~0 boost and by 4300 we were seeing about 13.5psi..... non sequential. Sequential should melt the tires off. I HAVE to head back. Poor Dave has been wanting to play with the sequentials since he saw the software but we can never get there.

What's even funnier, is in late June when we cooked engine #3 (actually CLOGGED filter as in held fuel) I said jokingly that we were going to break records, finish the sequentials, but it would be so late in the year that I would drive her home and pull her apart for the winter. Guess what's going to happen. I can't get back to Dave until the 2nd week in November and I always take her off the road Turkey Day w/e or before if there's going to be snow.

Originally Posted by Turbo II Rotor

Btw, the Tuesday night meet is dying down due to the cold so maybe we could find a weekend meet that works for both of us. If not there is always DGRR '10, which I'll definitely be attending.

You bunch of pussies I have no weekends until probably 11/15... sorry man. Maybe 11/8. DGRR is a definate though, without a doubt. Hopefully have 3-4 cars there if all goes according to plan, which it never does. Are you planning on doing the same thing you did last year or head down with us on Thursday?

Are there any other Bear Mt or OCC meets left in Nov?

[TitaniumTT]

Oh, last two things to test, although I'm only going to do one is to drive the girl around and see if the psi holds steady before and after the filter. There is basically little flow with the engine off. As you run her hard, you're asking for more pressure AND more flow, now alot of it isn't making it to the reg. So after the Walbro goes in tomorrow and passes my series of A tests, I'll go for a rip around the neighborhood and see what the pressures are like while under full boost. If they remain pretty consistant, I'm racing Sunday.