Turbo manifold design - Page 2

RICE RACING · 12-31-2011, 09:40 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kyJW...eature=related

^ These cunts know a thing or two about head jobs.

12minutes into this EPIC VIDEO (History lesson) BMW powered Benetton = 1350bhp and ~650kg actually has more power than the official media quoted figures, watch the video and be prepared to shit your panties! Actual power is around 1400+bhp as BMW could never measure the power properly as their dyno stopped at 1400!!!

25 years ago
1.5lt engine
STOCK ENGINE BLOCK
10,500rpm
102 oct petrol
water injection on the Renault and Ferrari
water sprays on intercoolers
5.5bar absolute pressures

NO THE VIDEO IS NOT IN FAST FORWARD!!!!

watch and learn!

Libor · 12-31-2011, 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RICE RACING

^ These cunts know a thing or two about head jobs.

That Benetton is just ridiculous

Peter, what do you think is the cause of better midrange torque with plumbed wastegate? This thing shocked me, as it shouldn't enhance volumetric efficiency and hence airflow per cycle. It must be something related to wastegate valve position and how far its opened vs. target boost? I´m lost in this

RICE RACING · 01-03-2012, 06:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Libor

That Benetton is just ridiculous

Peter, what do you think is the cause of better midrange torque with plumbed wastegate? This thing shocked me, as it shouldn't enhance volumetric efficiency and hence airflow per cycle. It must be something related to wastegate valve position and how far its opened vs. target boost? I´m lost in this

Yeah the BMW Benetton (Toleman IMHO) is just gag factor to the maX! its a real history lesson in making a fast turbo car.

I have not much of an idea as to why it makes more power, except that there is some complex interactions between the intake and exhaust as TTT suggests. For the street its a nice side benefit, its way WAY to fucking loud to have any turbo 13B that does not have at least two big mufflers and a WG going through the main exhaust system.

My car is very loud when its on 30psi boost! its just a pure function of the power being made, the more boost I have run the more loud it is, when I trialed it with just one muffler it was totally abhorrent and not usable on the road in any way shape of form.... anyway I know some don't care about noise etc, but to me to stay undercover it is important

speedjunkie · 12-31-2011, 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TitaniumTT

Hey Eric.... basically as far as the exhaust goes, the theory states as for turbo engines that the longer the runners, the more top end power you'll get for a variety of reasons. However, you're after response anyway.

As Peter pointed out, take a look at the Twins Turbo manifold. Beautifully constructed, out side the box thinking, not all that impressive numbers.

As for your tuning experiences.... get a better dyno guy!

What's breaking and what boost, timing, AFR's etc etc etc...

Yeah I'm going to stick with shorter runners, as short as possible anyway.

It actually wasn't the tuner's fault in either case, it was just one of those things. Well, the first turbo I lost was my fault because I didn't put a restrictor in the oil line (didn't know I had to back then haha) and it blew the oil seals out on the first run, so that was my fault. Then when I lost my engine last Jan, I think it was going to go at any moment anyway, it was time to give up the ghost and it just so happened to be on the dyno. Actually that one was due to the rear bearing, so I'm thinking it might have been a blockage in the e-shaft or something and not providing oil, not sure. This time I don't know what the hell happened, but it hadn't even made it to the dyno yet when it started burning oil, during break in! But I'm still not 100% sure it's the engine just yet. But when I did get it on the dyno, that guy didn't know his ass from his elbow and changed the tune/timing so much that it killed it and wouldn't start again unless we popped the clutch with the truck pulling it. Once I changed the timing it would start again, but still acts weird, almost like it's flooding every time. And I'm sure as shit not going back to that place haha. And he supposedly used to have an FD and tunes a lot of them, that's doubtful. He sure isn't tuning mine anymore. Not only that, I spent 3 hours the night prior setting up my TB for a perfect idle, and then this dipshit started messing with it and screwed it up. But each of these times have been at different tuners anyway.

DriFD3S · 12-31-2011, 04:54 AM

I approve of this thread.

***TitaniumTT*** · 12-31-2011, 09:02 AM

And what knowledge and experience do you have to approve of anything?

***TitaniumTT*** · 12-31-2011, 01:29 PM

Think scavenging

speedjunkie · 01-03-2012, 08:07 AM

^I've been trying to go the more undercover route. Right now I have a Magnaflow resonated midpipe and the WG is routed back into the exhaust. But with the dual WG, I won't be doing that anymore, so I guess it's back to loud as shit haha. Maybe I'll take the resonated MP out too, I kinda miss the loud anyway, although I'm sure my neighbors don't.

speedjunkie · 01-03-2012, 10:08 AM

Ok, another thing I want to look at. Maybe I should make this a new thread, but whatever.

I want to build a new IC for my VMIC setup. I feel the one I have now may not be the best design, but I don't really know enough to be sure about that haha. I have a Rotary Extreme Monster VMIC kit. The core is 18X11X4.5, but what concerns me the most is the end tank design. There is no smooth flow to it, it's just pretty choppy, if that makes sense. The first pic with the black IC is my current setup. I'd like to do something similar to the second pic, and/or maybe the third/fourth pic. I'd also like to put some guides inside to make sure the air flows to all parts of the core instead of just through the middle.

I know I don't want air to move too fast through the IC though or it makes use of an IC kinda pointless. Sean from A-Spec suggested using 3" inlet and 2.75" outlet to offset that. I'm also looking into IC core size, and I'm not really sure what to get. I have an idea of what CFM to look for, somewhere around 740 at 10psi or 1300 at 15psi, etc, but this is somewhat based on my current turbo. Is there a way to use lbs/min (that the turbo is capable of) to get an idea of what CFM to look for? I'm thinking about going to a little bit shorter length, like 14", and keeping the 4.5" thickness and maybe going with 10" to get close to 740CFM (at 10psi, according to Bell Intercoolers which is where I've been looking). Or should I stick with 11" and go for closer to 800CFM? I was also looking at maybe stepping down to a 3.5" thickness, but Sean was saying the length of the IC will affect pressure drop more than thickness, which is one reason I'm thinking about stepping down to 14". I'm not too educated on all this flow business haha.

http://www.bellintercoolers.com/_pages/coreAirCore.html
http://www.bellintercoolers.com/_pages/aachart450.html

just startn · 01-03-2012, 11:02 AM

speedjunkie- what size manifold piping are you going to use to make your manifold?

RICE RACING · 01-03-2012, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by speedjunkie

Ok, another thing I want to look at. Maybe I should make this a new thread, but whatever.

I want to build a new IC for my VMIC setup. I feel the one I have now may not be the best design, but I don't really know enough to be sure about that haha. I have a Rotary Extreme Monster VMIC kit. The core is 18X11X4.5, but what concerns me the most is the end tank design. There is no smooth flow to it, it's just pretty choppy, if that makes sense. The first pic with the black IC is my current setup. I'd like to do something similar to the second pic, and/or maybe the third/fourth pic. I'd also like to put some guides inside to make sure the air flows to all parts of the core instead of just through the middle.

I know I don't want air to move too fast through the IC though or it makes use of an IC kinda pointless. Sean from A-Spec suggested using 3" inlet and 2.75" outlet to offset that. I'm also looking into IC core size, and I'm not really sure what to get. I have an idea of what CFM to look for, somewhere around 740 at 10psi or 1300 at 15psi, etc, but this is somewhat based on my current turbo. Is there a way to use lbs/min (that the turbo is capable of) to get an idea of what CFM to look for? I'm thinking about going to a little bit shorter length, like 14", and keeping the 4.5" thickness and maybe going with 10" to get close to 740CFM (at 10psi, according to Bell Intercoolers which is where I've been looking). Or should I stick with 11" and go for closer to 800CFM? I was also looking at maybe stepping down to a 3.5" thickness, but Sean was saying the length of the IC will affect pressure drop more than thickness, which is one reason I'm thinking about stepping down to 14". I'm not too educated on all this flow business haha.

http://www.bellintercoolers.com/_pages/coreAirCore.html
http://www.bellintercoolers.com/_pages/aachart450.html

I really need to scan some pictures of the Benetton BMW F1 car's intercooler for you.

Flow and angles n shit makes less difference when you are running higher and higher pressure ratio's, which lets face it you have to on any rotary due to its small capacity be it 2,3 or 4 rotors compared to what you have to work with in any decent reciprocating engine.

Same for pipe work sizes etc. IMHO I use the stock std 2.75" pipes in my rig and I say again make so much power that the car is almost un enjoyable as you just cant rev it out in 3rd gear or what ever cause you are just doing over 100mph in less than 2 seconds. < This fact is hard to convey to people who have not had a really fast car yet. Its so easy to get almost 600bhp out of a 13B its not funny and when you are there and you have it in a car of 2800lb or so then all this talk of intercoolers and manifolds and turbos A/R's etc will all seem academic to you............ you will know it when it happens

What ever all of you decide you WILL need water injection to make it durable *long term* like I have proven with RICESP, without it you can measure the life in minutes LOL

yzf-r1 · 01-03-2012, 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RICE RACING

I say again make so much power that the car is almost un enjoyable as you just cant rev it out in 3rd gear or what ever cause you are just doing over 100mph in less than 2 seconds. < This fact is hard to convey to people who have not had a really fast car yet. Its so easy to get almost 600bhp out of a 13B its not funny and when you are there and you have it in a car of 2800lb or so then all this talk of intercoolers and manifolds and turbos A/R's etc will all seem academic to you............ you will know it when it happens

Agree, I can't imagine 600 hp in an FD - the cops in your area must be very understanding

Off topic but have you played with any kind of traction control?

RICE RACING · 01-03-2012, 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yzf-r1

Agree, I can't imagine 600 hp in an FD - the cops in your area must be very understanding

Off topic but have you played with any kind of traction control?

I have been using Race Logic Traction Control since 2005.

I developed 13B specific cut patterns for RL and I sell the maps to people who buy systems off them for use on rotaries

I have tested it at length and my system/programming is proven many rotary users and literally covered hundreds of thousadns of killometers

ulike other BIG NAME ECU suppliers mine actually works and will not fuck your engine

in true F1 style fuel cut (only way to do TC properly@!) some other makers have such issues with TC on rotaries that they fuck around with other inferior methods like electronic throttles LOL or spark cutting etc etc.

RICESP would be totally useless without TC

If you look on my web site I have one video where I do some testing at my local air port on about 18psi boost and there are patches of wet tarmac, you can hear the TC operating in 1st and 2nd gear. I have other video's where I am driving some cunts FD that I fitted my TC too and you can hear it working around the track in the slow 2nd gear corners, it sounds just like an F1 car

*old F1 car lol*.

When I first started using RL TC I did about 30,000km testing on the first unit, I pulled down the engien to check eveything and the wear was nothing more than a car running without it fitted............. Its the best thing ever for a 2WD high powered car.

http://www.riceracing.com.au/rides/S...II_SpiritR.htm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CqTMY...layer_embedded

^ unbeaten to this day for a true genuine road FD on twin turbo's on hard compound road tires, I set a lap record with full fuel tank too lol ........ lots of people have tried to beat it with soft compound tires and gutted FD's non have ever got close. And I was not even trying too hard, not too bad for a "hack driver" imagine if I was racing for plastic trophys every weekend LOL.

speedjunkie · 01-04-2012, 03:32 AM

Awesome, thanks! I'll check it out.

speedjunkie · 01-07-2012, 07:41 AM

http://www.bellintercoolers.com/_pages/aachart450.html

After doing some looking around, I think I've decided to go with an IC core sized 4.5x14 and either 10.10" (741CFM @ 10psi) or 11" (807CFM @ 10psi), and using 3" inlet and 2.75" outlet. The 4.5x14x10.10 would give me pretty much what I should be getting with my current IC, if it were made by the same company. By using a shorter IC, I'm hoping for faster response, but I'm also somewhat concerned about it being too short to be as efficient at cooling as my current 18" core. I guess it's not all that much shorter though, and hopefully the 1/4" smaller outlet would slow the air just a bit, but not too much.

There is an added benefit to this as well though. I've thought about how to duct the IC and radiator, and since the IC will be shorter, I will have an adjustable duct for each of them. Or maybe I'll just have an adjustable duct on the radiator and then mount the side pieces of ducting for the IC to the vertical part of the radiator ducting. Not sure that makes sense to anyone haha. Anyway, this will allow me to have more room for my air filter (and I can make an airbox for it too) and it will also allow me to mount an aftermarket PS cooler on the other side of the IC, into the ducting for the radiator. I'm getting very excited about this. Now if I could just get home to work on it lol. My only decision now is to chance starting this before DGRR or wait until after. I'd rather have it done before, but I guess I'll see.

I'd like to even reinstall AC and heat by the end of this year, but we'll see about that haha. With this shorter IC I'd have room for the canister in it's stock location, next to where the battery used to sit.

12-31-2011, 09:40 AM	#1
RICE RACING Don Mega Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Utopia Posts: 1,688 Rep Power: 18	watch and learn fact v's fiction http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kyJW...eature=related ^ These cunts know a thing or two about head jobs. 12minutes into this EPIC VIDEO (History lesson) BMW powered Benetton = 1350bhp and ~650kg actually has more power than the official media quoted figures, watch the video and be prepared to shit your panties! Actual power is around 1400+bhp as BMW could never measure the power properly as their dyno stopped at 1400!!! 25 years ago 1.5lt engine STOCK ENGINE BLOCK 10,500rpm 102 oct petrol water injection on the Renault and Ferrari water sprays on intercoolers 5.5bar absolute pressures NO THE VIDEO IS NOT IN FAST FORWARD!!!! watch and learn! __________________ www.riceracing.com.au Worlds best Apex Seals Coil on Plug Water Injection ECU Calibration Last edited by RICE RACING; 12-31-2011 at 09:44 AM.

12-31-2011, 04:54 AM	#5
DriFD3S Rotary Fanatic Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Edmonton, AB, Canada Posts: 174 Rep Power: 0	I approve of this thread. __________________ *Live the DriFD3S or die trying.* JDM True Story. the Vacuum line, to my MAP became detached while I was legally drifting. my engine would not rev past 2500, and idled from 300-650 and was stalling. Fortunately, I acquired a Zip-Tie. I fixed a catastrophic engine failure, With a Zip-Tie. JDM FTW.

12-31-2011, 09:02 AM	#6
*TitaniumTT* Test Whore - Admin Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Right Behind you son Posts: 4,581 Rep Power: 10	And what knowledge and experience do you have to approve of anything? __________________ -The Angry Stig- DGRR 2009, 2011, 2012 & 2013 - Best FC DEALS GAP!! WOOHOOOO!!!!! 2015 Audi S4 - Samantha - Zero Brap S4 2004 RX8 - Jocelyn - 196rwhp, 19mpg fuel to noise converter 2000 Jeep Cherokee Sport - Wifey mobile - Now with 2.5" OME lift and 30" BFG AT KO's! So it begins 1998 Jeep Cherokee - 5 spd, 4" lift, 33" BFG's - Rotary Tow Vehicle 1988 'Vert - In progress 1988 FC Coupe - Gretchen -The attention whore BEAST! I'm a sick individual, what's wrong with you? I'm pure Evil I'm still insane, in the best possible way. I think Brian's idea of romance is using lube. Your rage caused the meteor strike in Russia. The Antichrist would be proud of his minion. You win with your thread. Most everything It's a truck with a steel gate on the back. Just a statement of fact Motec M820, AIM dash, ported 13B-RE Cosmo, 6-spd trans, 4.3 Torsen, custom twin wg fully divided mani, Custom 4" split into 2x 3" exhaust, Custom HMIC, Custom custom custom custom I like to welder stuff.... No Bolt-ons allowed. Dyno'ed @ Speed1 Tuned by me - 405rwhp on WG.... WM50 cuming soon. *-Angry Motherfcker Mode ENGAGED-**

12-31-2011, 01:29 PM	#7
*TitaniumTT* Test Whore - Admin Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Right Behind you son Posts: 4,581 Rep Power: 10	Think scavenging __________________ -The Angry Stig- DGRR 2009, 2011, 2012 & 2013 - Best FC DEALS GAP!! WOOHOOOO!!!!! 2015 Audi S4 - Samantha - Zero Brap S4 2004 RX8 - Jocelyn - 196rwhp, 19mpg fuel to noise converter 2000 Jeep Cherokee Sport - Wifey mobile - Now with 2.5" OME lift and 30" BFG AT KO's! So it begins 1998 Jeep Cherokee - 5 spd, 4" lift, 33" BFG's - Rotary Tow Vehicle 1988 'Vert - In progress 1988 FC Coupe - Gretchen -The attention whore BEAST! I'm a sick individual, what's wrong with you? I'm pure Evil I'm still insane, in the best possible way. I think Brian's idea of romance is using lube. Your rage caused the meteor strike in Russia. The Antichrist would be proud of his minion. You win with your thread. Most everything It's a truck with a steel gate on the back. Just a statement of fact Motec M820, AIM dash, ported 13B-RE Cosmo, 6-spd trans, 4.3 Torsen, custom twin wg fully divided mani, Custom 4" split into 2x 3" exhaust, Custom HMIC, Custom custom custom custom I like to welder stuff.... No Bolt-ons allowed. Dyno'ed @ Speed1 Tuned by me - 405rwhp on WG.... WM50 cuming soon. *-Angry Motherfcker Mode ENGAGED-**

01-03-2012, 08:07 AM	#8
speedjunkie RCC Loves Me Not You Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Colorado Springs, CO Posts: 2,089 Rep Power: 20	^I've been trying to go the more undercover route. Right now I have a Magnaflow resonated midpipe and the WG is routed back into the exhaust. But with the dual WG, I won't be doing that anymore, so I guess it's back to loud as shit haha. Maybe I'll take the resonated MP out too, I kinda miss the loud anyway, although I'm sure my neighbors don't.

01-03-2012, 11:02 AM	#10
just startn Turbo Vert Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Elyria Posts: 68 Rep Power: 16	speedjunkie- what size manifold piping are you going to use to make your manifold?

01-04-2012, 03:32 AM	#14
speedjunkie RCC Loves Me Not You Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Colorado Springs, CO Posts: 2,089 Rep Power: 20	Awesome, thanks! I'll check it out.

01-07-2012, 07:41 AM	#15
speedjunkie RCC Loves Me Not You Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Colorado Springs, CO Posts: 2,089 Rep Power: 20	http://www.bellintercoolers.com/_pages/aachart450.html After doing some looking around, I think I've decided to go with an IC core sized 4.5x14 and either 10.10" (741CFM @ 10psi) or 11" (807CFM @ 10psi), and using 3" inlet and 2.75" outlet. The 4.5x14x10.10 would give me pretty much what I should be getting with my current IC, if it were made by the same company. By using a shorter IC, I'm hoping for faster response, but I'm also somewhat concerned about it being too short to be as efficient at cooling as my current 18" core. I guess it's not all that much shorter though, and hopefully the 1/4" smaller outlet would slow the air just a bit, but not too much. There is an added benefit to this as well though. I've thought about how to duct the IC and radiator, and since the IC will be shorter, I will have an adjustable duct for each of them. Or maybe I'll just have an adjustable duct on the radiator and then mount the side pieces of ducting for the IC to the vertical part of the radiator ducting. Not sure that makes sense to anyone haha. Anyway, this will allow me to have more room for my air filter (and I can make an airbox for it too) and it will also allow me to mount an aftermarket PS cooler on the other side of the IC, into the ducting for the radiator. I'm getting very excited about this. Now if I could just get home to work on it lol. My only decision now is to chance starting this before DGRR or wait until after. I'd rather have it done before, but I guess I'll see. I'd like to even reinstall AC and heat by the end of this year, but we'll see about that haha. With this shorter IC I'd have room for the canister in it's stock location, next to where the battery used to sit.