Defined Autoworks 523whp 35r!!

[TitaniumTT]

Originally Posted by David Jerome

Im in Knoxville, TN and we have 3-4 dynos here in town. Stop by and I will treat you to a nice dinner also. I could talk rotaries all day every day.

Sweet! You're on. I plan on being at Deals Gap on or about 12/18. So I'll plan on heading that way that Monday. Definately cool of you David. thanks much.

-Brian

[David Jerome]

Originally Posted by TitaniumTT

Sweet! You're on. I plan on being at Deals Gap on or about 12/18. So I'll plan on heading that way that Monday. Definately cool of you David. thanks much.

-Brian

As of now that date looks like it will work. When it gets closer I will talk to the dyno owner and get it setup.

[C. Ludwig]

This is one of the problems you run into when you start comparing dyno numbers. Any dyno numbers, let alone numbers from different brands of dynos.

As an example, Enzo's brothers car was mentioned. That car has dyno charts from a Dyno Dynamics dyno that say 501 peak. Problem with that is that Enzo skewed the actual DD reading by 15% to emulate a Dynojet number. Not a problem with that really, IMO anyway, as the Dynojet numbers are the most common numbers people throw around. I have, myself, run cars back to back on a Dyno Dynamics and a Dynojet, and the 15% number is exactly what I found. Even if you use the same dyno to measure the car in question and a standard control subject, who is to say input factors of the dyno aren't being skewed? Racing dynos doesn't get you anywhere.

So what? So, trap speed then becomes the best indicator of relative power. Trap speed is relatively immune to how you get the car off the line. Whether you nail the 60 ft or ease off the line, you'll trap similarly. Since this car is built as a drift car, I would guess you'll never see quarter mile numbers on it. Just a guess.

[Libor]

Originally Posted by David Jerome

As posted on rx7club these turbos can make 500rwhp, just not at 14-15lbs. Enzo Tunings brother made around 501rwhp in his car and trapped 131mph at over 20psi.

With T3 frame GT35R. As you know, this GT35R compressor is mated with T4 P-trim turbine, big difference. Also this is bridgeport vs. stockport. And last posted numbers were done with 18.8 PSI tapering down to 16 PSI.

I don´t see problem here. Just well sorted combination...

[sk8world]

Originally Posted by RotorDad

Well getting another dyno reading seems like it will be the way to go. Gauging power by a trap speed will not give you the answers you are looking for. 14-15 psi may seem low, but I don't really have any experience with a 35r on a rotary. As I said above there is too many other factors which will result in different outcomes. Also the FD you spoke of ran those times at around 2700 lbs, because listing the car with out the driver weight is useless. The car didn't drive it self down the track, an average person I would think to be 140-200 lbs. Another thing to think about which may not make much of a difference, but this is in a 240SX not FD. I just think to prove the the claims another dyno run would be the best route to take.

I am with David on this one as well. You CAN run your car down the 1/4 and shift it regular on a shitty 60 foot and your trap speed will be your best. The car should trap in the 128-130 then it makes 500rwhp area. My best 60 has been on a 2.1 60 foot!!! As far as boost goes I would imagine him being closer to 20 to hit that number if not even a tad more.

Anything is possible but I never trust dyno numbers. Its kinda like going to the track, you usually leave with a slower time than you came to run. Same goes on the dyno.

Most dyno's can and are manipulated. You want a happy customer.

BUT in the end all that really matters is YOU are happy with your car. Just got to watch out claiming a certain number requires more than a dyno sheet now a days.

[RICE RACING]

Originally Posted by RotorDad

Well getting another dyno reading seems like it will be the way to go. Gauging power by a trap speed will not give you the answers you are looking for. 14-15 psi may seem low, but I don't really have any experience with a 35r on a rotary. As I said above there is too many other factors which will result in different outcomes. Also the FD you spoke of ran those times at around 2700 lbs, because listing the car with out the driver weight is useless. The car didn't drive it self down the track, an average person I would think to be 140-200 lbs. Another thing to think about which may not make much of a difference, but this is in a 240SX not FD. I just think to prove the the claims another dyno run would be the best route to take.

This thread is turning to shit quick.

If you doubt speeds as a measure of power then you have no idea of physics. You can learn some by looking at my page, use proper gear and you will see direct correlation with "terminal speed" and "power" or lack of power in some peoples cases

I for one accept dynapack (and you rear hub power result), they are one of the best dynos period to use in the common battler spec domestic person "off the street general public" alternatives. if you run it at 1.00 TCF then what it gives you is what you have. In my experience if you want to guess your engine power you ONLY use a TCF of around 8% *little more* when you apply this to proper physics *again see my web page* you will see that if you are honest (weight measure) and (engine power estimate) then YOU WILL EQUAL the theoretical "mph" terminal speed target at std temp and pressure conditions.

But hey I only do this everyday and teach it for a living as well it helps to have the best measuring gear in the world and an education to make the most use of it when you tie it all in together you see that lots of stuff makes perfect sense in dyno land and in reality land

[FDwarrior]

Wow, this thread did go somewhat crazy. Im going to speak as a customer here. I have seen many different cars on the same dyno I was on. I have also seen those cars on different dynos as well, all producing the same numbers basically(dyno brand differences).

First off, my engine is the result of many years of R&D. Second if any one has any doubt of what has been done even after the results have been posted, I don't know what to tell you. Just because some of you have seen 1zillion 35r 13b's not do what mine did means nothing, except maybe defined should have built there engines. Like I said before there are things done to my engine that are really never done(mostly internal, one of the things is clearly visible in my engine pics), a result of R&D. All I can say is maybe some of the doubters should step up there R&D. I said it before I just want credit to go where it belongs, to Defined Autoworks the ones who built the engine.

And I will go to any dyno, or any track. The track part might be hard now that it's snowing where I live.

[RotorDad]

Originally Posted by RICE RACING

This thread is turning to shit quick.

If you doubt speeds as a measure of power then you have no idea of physics. You can learn some by looking at my page, use proper gear and you will see direct correlation with "terminal speed" and "power" or lack of power in some peoples cases

Hey I will honestly say that you all definitely know more than me, but still how is trap speed going to determine how many pounds of boost he is using to make these claimed numbers. I am aware that dyno's can be fudged & I understand that there may be questions to the claims by another member. I just figured if Mr. Jerome was going to pay for Dyno time, then going to a neutral / unbiased shop to make a run for some results, where the boost levels can be better monitored. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'm too trusting & just taking the info provided by the OP as correct.

[FDwarrior]

Originally Posted by RotorDad

Hey I will honestly say that you all definitely know more than me, but still how is trap speed going to determine how many pounds of boost he is using to make these claimed numbers. I am aware that dyno's can be fudged & I understand that there may be questions to the claims by another member. I just figured if Mr. Jerome was going to pay for Dyno time, then going to a neutral / unbiased shop to make a run for some results, where the boost levels can be better monitored. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'm too trusting & just taking the info provided by the OP as correct.

We do dyno at a neutral/ unbiased shop. We use Slowmotion Motorsports dyno. Slowmotion tunes many cars but specializes in hondas, and could care less about rotaries. What happens is we go to there dynos, throw the car on, tune, and then pay them. Defined no longer has there own dynos, so we use there dyno's or another shops.

[RotorDad]

Well with all said I respect the car & the work involved in the build. I'll leave the rest to the professionals.

[RICE RACING]

Honestly you don't have anything to prove to any cock suckers on the internet, if they don't believe your dynapack result and want to cast aspersions then its a reflection of their lack of ability/and real world knowledge (not googled or forum'd shit) nothing more.

It's a sweet car with great power

[David Jerome]

Originally Posted by FDwarrior

Wow, this thread did go somewhat crazy. Im going to speak as a customer here. I have seen many different cars on the same dyno I was on. I have also seen those cars on different dynos as well, all producing the same numbers basically(dyno brand differences).

First off, my engine is the result of many years of R&D. Second if any one has any doubt of what has been done even after the results have been posted, I don't know what to tell you. Just because some of you have seen 1zillion 35r 13b's not do what mine did means nothing, except maybe defined should have built there engines. Like I said before there are things done to my engine that are really never done(mostly internal, one of the things is clearly visible in my engine pics), a result of R&D. All I can say is maybe some of the doubters should step up there R&D. I said it before I just want credit to go where it belongs, to Defined Autoworks the ones who built the engine.

And I will go to any dyno, or any track. The track part might be hard now that it's snowing where I live.

I figured this is the reaction I would receive. I am taking no credit from anyone. If you are willing to run the car in the spring at a track I will still be willing to pay. I assume you will be honest and keep the boost at 15lbs and see what happens. Like I said I hope you prove me wrong, you wont find anyone more willing and happy to benchrace for the rotary and what it can do. I simply said it was hard for me to believe, and that is why I offered the challenge and am willing to pay. Im not raising the BS flag and running away. This would be excellent advertising for Defined if your trap speeds can back up the dyno numbers.

Im simply saying I know what different dynos can do and how they can be altered. My fd made 360rwhp on right at 13lbs on the stock twins, atleast thats what the dyno dynamics said once the shop owner put in his calculation to relate it to a dynojet. Call me crazy but I dont believe my medium streetport, Non-sequential fd made 360rwhp on 13lbs with a PFC base tune.

[TitaniumTT]

Originally Posted by FDwarrior

Wow, this thread did go somewhat crazy. Im going to speak as a customer here. I have seen many different cars on the same dyno I was on. I have also seen those cars on different dynos as well, all producing the same numbers basically(dyno brand differences).

First off, my engine is the result of many years of R&D. Second if any one has any doubt of what has been done even after the results have been posted, I don't know what to tell you. Just because some of you have seen 1zillion 35r 13b's not do what mine did means nothing, except maybe defined should have built there engines. Like I said before there are things done to my engine that are really never done(mostly internal, one of the things is clearly visible in my engine pics), a result of R&D. All I can say is maybe some of the doubters should step up there R&D. I said it before I just want credit to go where it belongs, to Defined Autoworks the ones who built the engine.

And I will go to any dyno, or any track. The track part might be hard now that it's snowing where I live.

First, I'm curious to what you're referring to when you say clearly visible in one engine bay pic?

For me, I usually see it as the other way around. My favorite example is the guy that made 437rwhp on a dyno-jet with a GT42R and 21psi....... think about that for a minute. I feel that there is ALOT to be made.... or in most cases lost, because people don't know what they're doing when it comes to tuning. I believe this is where alot of people get stuck with the "normal." Most REW twins seem to land between 350-360 and occasionally with a touch more boost, a little more timing, a little less fuel will get upwards of 380. In my case, there is all that plus the most effiecient engine I could build, big exhaust, short intercooler piping, small core.... it netted me 405rwhp on dyno-jet. Take the myriads of GT35R guys out there running very little timing, 10.5:1 afr's making around 4-425. Lean it out a lot, like a full point, add some timing, reduce the EMAP, and see what happens. An extra 25% hp I don't think is outrageous.

This is also a 1.0 A/R snail correct?

Originally Posted by David Jerome

I figured this is the reaction I would receive. I am taking no credit from anyone. If you are willing to run the car in the spring at a track I will still be willing to pay. I assume you will be honest and keep the boost at 15lbs and see what happens. Like I said I hope you prove me wrong, you wont find anyone more willing and happy to benchrace for the rotary and what it can do. I simply said it was hard for me to believe, and that is why I offered the challenge and am willing to pay. Im not raising the BS flag and running away. This would be excellent advertising for Defined if your trap speeds can back up the dyno numbers.

Im simply saying I know what different dynos can do and how they can be altered. My fd made 360rwhp on right at 13lbs on the stock twins, atleast thats what the dyno dynamics said once the shop owner put in his calculation to relate it to a dynojet. Call me crazy but I dont believe my medium streetport, Non-sequential fd made 360rwhp on 13lbs with a PFC base tune.

So what's you're plan when I get into town David? Hit up a dyno-pak and put that correction factor in to see where we land? I wouldn't be opposed to going to a drag strip either. I warn you though, I've never once drag raced so be prepared to laugh your ass off You sound like you have a cery good grasp of the different dyno's and how they measure everything, we'll have to chat about this in great depth. I just accepted that different tools measure things differently and left it at that as there was so much contradicting info on the net when I was looking into it years ago.

[David Jerome]

Originally Posted by TitaniumTT

So what's you're plan when I get into town David? Hit up a dyno-pak and put that correction factor in to see where we land? I wouldn't be opposed to going to a drag strip either. I warn you though, I've never once drag raced so be prepared to laugh your ass off You sound like you have a cery good grasp of the different dyno's and how they measure everything, we'll have to chat about this in great depth. I just accepted that different tools measure things differently and left it at that as there was so much contradicting info on the net when I was looking into it years ago.

I figured we would go to the shop where I dynoed my fd. It is a dyno dynamics dyno. He can give us the "true" numbers then the adjusted numbers "True Xs 1.16"(16% correction factor). Im no expert on dynos, not by any stretch or do I study them. However, it is common knowledge that Dyno Jet dynos typically show 15% higher numbers than a Dyno Dynamics dyno with the original software. After a quick search (google), I found a post saying that the shop the OPs car dynoed at reads roughly 4% higher than a Dyno Jet(this coming from the shop itself). So that is a 19% correction over what a Dyno Dynamics(heartbreaker dyno) reads.

I hope when you meet me you arent expecting some genius automotive mind or something. Im very comfortable in what I do and focus on my business and keeping customers happy. Im not out R&Ding and trying to push the envelope. I know a decent bit about fds and how to keep them on the road, that is what I do. I dont pretend to have knowlege of something when I do not. My knowledge and info comes from real world experiences and not a class room and definitely not theories.

I know you probably wonder why I would make the comments I did in this thread and in yours. To me the numbers dont add up, not at the boost levels that are claimed anyways. There is one other person that has claimed 400rwhp on stock fd twins(truly stock twins) and he is the record holder for fastest times ever. 10.9 at 126 and that was with 402rwhp at roughly 19psi.

The drag strip is most accurate indicator of HP. We can race dynos all day, but the drag strip tells the story. If you know the weight of the car and the MPH it traps the power becomes pretty clear. Especially on a quick spooling setup with a broader power band, they will often trap slightly higher than another car with same peak power but laggier response.

Im not saying your car doesnt make 400rwhp or the OPs car doesnt make 5xx at 15lbs, I just want to see what happens when the cars go to a different dyno or run at the drag strip. If Im wrong I will be the first to admit it and gladly post it here for all to see or wherever else.

I dont make my living doing this work anymore, I do still make money but I keep doing it because I love FDs. I just try to keep as many FDs on the road as possible.

[David Jerome]

Also, I highly doubt the dragstrip will be open. We have an 1/8 mile local that tries to stay open on weekends throughout the winter but weather rarely allows it.