Turbo manifold design

[speedjunkie]

Ok, another thing I want to look at. Maybe I should make this a new thread, but whatever.

I want to build a new IC for my VMIC setup. I feel the one I have now may not be the best design, but I don't really know enough to be sure about that haha. I have a Rotary Extreme Monster VMIC kit. The core is 18X11X4.5, but what concerns me the most is the end tank design. There is no smooth flow to it, it's just pretty choppy, if that makes sense. The first pic with the black IC is my current setup. I'd like to do something similar to the second pic, and/or maybe the third/fourth pic. I'd also like to put some guides inside to make sure the air flows to all parts of the core instead of just through the middle.

I know I don't want air to move too fast through the IC though or it makes use of an IC kinda pointless. Sean from A-Spec suggested using 3" inlet and 2.75" outlet to offset that. I'm also looking into IC core size, and I'm not really sure what to get. I have an idea of what CFM to look for, somewhere around 740 at 10psi or 1300 at 15psi, etc, but this is somewhat based on my current turbo. Is there a way to use lbs/min (that the turbo is capable of) to get an idea of what CFM to look for? I'm thinking about going to a little bit shorter length, like 14", and keeping the 4.5" thickness and maybe going with 10" to get close to 740CFM (at 10psi, according to Bell Intercoolers which is where I've been looking). Or should I stick with 11" and go for closer to 800CFM? I was also looking at maybe stepping down to a 3.5" thickness, but Sean was saying the length of the IC will affect pressure drop more than thickness, which is one reason I'm thinking about stepping down to 14". I'm not too educated on all this flow business haha.

http://www.bellintercoolers.com/_pages/coreAirCore.html
http://www.bellintercoolers.com/_pages/aachart450.html

[just startn]

speedjunkie- what size manifold piping are you going to use to make your manifold?

[yzf-r1]

Originally Posted by RICE RACING

when I trialed it with just one muffler it was totally abhorrent and not usable on the road in any way shape of form....

No issues with the smaller IC running water?

[RICE RACING]

Originally Posted by yzf-r1

No issues with the smaller IC running water?

I have run over 34psi boost pressure on my set up & on a 20 deg Ambient day my air inlet temperature as measured in the stock location in the upper inlet manifold is less than 50 deg C in the top of 4th gear

In more normal boost settings at around 27psi its always under 45 deg C

I run water injection and an intercooler spray system it is unbelievable, lets me keep the historical aspect of my car (stock parts) but still have almost 700bhp from the engine if I choose to do so

[RICE RACING]

Originally Posted by speedjunkie

Ok, another thing I want to look at. Maybe I should make this a new thread, but whatever.

I want to build a new IC for my VMIC setup. I feel the one I have now may not be the best design, but I don't really know enough to be sure about that haha. I have a Rotary Extreme Monster VMIC kit. The core is 18X11X4.5, but what concerns me the most is the end tank design. There is no smooth flow to it, it's just pretty choppy, if that makes sense. The first pic with the black IC is my current setup. I'd like to do something similar to the second pic, and/or maybe the third/fourth pic. I'd also like to put some guides inside to make sure the air flows to all parts of the core instead of just through the middle.

I know I don't want air to move too fast through the IC though or it makes use of an IC kinda pointless. Sean from A-Spec suggested using 3" inlet and 2.75" outlet to offset that. I'm also looking into IC core size, and I'm not really sure what to get. I have an idea of what CFM to look for, somewhere around 740 at 10psi or 1300 at 15psi, etc, but this is somewhat based on my current turbo. Is there a way to use lbs/min (that the turbo is capable of) to get an idea of what CFM to look for? I'm thinking about going to a little bit shorter length, like 14", and keeping the 4.5" thickness and maybe going with 10" to get close to 740CFM (at 10psi, according to Bell Intercoolers which is where I've been looking). Or should I stick with 11" and go for closer to 800CFM? I was also looking at maybe stepping down to a 3.5" thickness, but Sean was saying the length of the IC will affect pressure drop more than thickness, which is one reason I'm thinking about stepping down to 14". I'm not too educated on all this flow business haha.

http://www.bellintercoolers.com/_pages/coreAirCore.html
http://www.bellintercoolers.com/_pages/aachart450.html

I really need to scan some pictures of the Benetton BMW F1 car's intercooler for you.

Flow and angles n shit makes less difference when you are running higher and higher pressure ratio's, which lets face it you have to on any rotary due to its small capacity be it 2,3 or 4 rotors compared to what you have to work with in any decent reciprocating engine.

Same for pipe work sizes etc. IMHO I use the stock std 2.75" pipes in my rig and I say again make so much power that the car is almost un enjoyable as you just cant rev it out in 3rd gear or what ever cause you are just doing over 100mph in less than 2 seconds. < This fact is hard to convey to people who have not had a really fast car yet. Its so easy to get almost 600bhp out of a 13B its not funny and when you are there and you have it in a car of 2800lb or so then all this talk of intercoolers and manifolds and turbos A/R's etc will all seem academic to you............ you will know it when it happens

What ever all of you decide you WILL need water injection to make it durable *long term* like I have proven with RICESP, without it you can measure the life in minutes LOL

[yzf-r1]

Originally Posted by RICE RACING

I say again make so much power that the car is almost un enjoyable as you just cant rev it out in 3rd gear or what ever cause you are just doing over 100mph in less than 2 seconds. < This fact is hard to convey to people who have not had a really fast car yet. Its so easy to get almost 600bhp out of a 13B its not funny and when you are there and you have it in a car of 2800lb or so then all this talk of intercoolers and manifolds and turbos A/R's etc will all seem academic to you............ you will know it when it happens

Agree, I can't imagine 600 hp in an FD - the cops in your area must be very understanding

Off topic but have you played with any kind of traction control?

[RICE RACING]

Originally Posted by yzf-r1

Agree, I can't imagine 600 hp in an FD - the cops in your area must be very understanding

Off topic but have you played with any kind of traction control?

I have been using Race Logic Traction Control since 2005.

I developed 13B specific cut patterns for RL and I sell the maps to people who buy systems off them for use on rotaries I have tested it at length and my system/programming is proven many rotary users and literally covered hundreds of thousadns of killometers ulike other BIG NAME ECU suppliers mine actually works and will not fuck your engine in true F1 style fuel cut (only way to do TC properly@!) some other makers have such issues with TC on rotaries that they fuck around with other inferior methods like electronic throttles LOL or spark cutting etc etc.

RICESP would be totally useless without TC

If you look on my web site I have one video where I do some testing at my local air port on about 18psi boost and there are patches of wet tarmac, you can hear the TC operating in 1st and 2nd gear. I have other video's where I am driving some cunts FD that I fitted my TC too and you can hear it working around the track in the slow 2nd gear corners, it sounds just like an F1 car *old F1 car lol*.

When I first started using RL TC I did about 30,000km testing on the first unit, I pulled down the engien to check eveything and the wear was nothing more than a car running without it fitted............. Its the best thing ever for a 2WD high powered car.

http://www.riceracing.com.au/rides/S...II_SpiritR.htm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CqTMY...layer_embedded

^ unbeaten to this day for a true genuine road FD on twin turbo's on hard compound road tires, I set a lap record with full fuel tank too lol ........ lots of people have tried to beat it with soft compound tires and gutted FD's non have ever got close. And I was not even trying too hard, not too bad for a "hack driver" imagine if I was racing for plastic trophys every weekend LOL.

[speedjunkie]

Originally Posted by just startn

speedjunkie- what size manifold piping are you going to use to make your manifold?

Don't know yet. For one, I'm not sure what all the options are haha, and I haven't talked to Tom (the guy that's going to build it) about all that yet either, I just asked him if he'd build it for me. He has hand-built whole exhaust systems before and they're gorgeous. So I think he'll do just fine haha. And luckily he's local, so I'll just drive my car over there when I get back and start pulling out the turbo and manifold so he can get to work.

Anyway, I'd like to use a size similar to the pic I posted on the previous page, something large enough that I don't have to worry about it being restrictive. I'm not sure what sizes are offered in 321 though.

I know this is more than what you asked, I'm just excited about it haha.

Originally Posted by RICE RACING

I really need to scan some pictures of the Benetton BMW F1 car's intercooler for you.

Flow and angles n shit makes less difference when you are running higher and higher pressure ratio's, which lets face it you have to on any rotary due to its small capacity be it 2,3 or 4 rotors compared to what you have to work with in any decent reciprocating engine.

Same for pipe work sizes etc. IMHO I use the stock std 2.75" pipes in my rig and I say again make so much power that the car is almost un enjoyable as you just cant rev it out in 3rd gear or what ever cause you are just doing over 100mph in less than 2 seconds. < This fact is hard to convey to people who have not had a really fast car yet. Its so easy to get almost 600bhp out of a 13B its not funny and when you are there and you have it in a car of 2800lb or so then all this talk of intercoolers and manifolds and turbos A/R's etc will all seem academic to you............ you will know it when it happens

What ever all of you decide you WILL need water injection to make it durable *long term* like I have proven with RICESP, without it you can measure the life in minutes LOL

One thing I need to mention is that at this time I'm not interested in using race gas, so I won't be pushing any more than 20-25psi.

It's funny you mention all that, because I'm not so much looking for high HP, my main goal here is the quickest response I can get. What I'd love is to have the response of the stock twins but in a single turbo setup. I know that's pretty impossible, but if I can get at least somewhat close I'll be happy. If I get high HP out of it, that's cool. Honestly though, the altitude where I live robs us by 27% on a boosted car (I don't know how much on an NA but I can't even imagine), so the higher HP the better, but it's not my main concern. When I go back home to closer to sea level I can really tell how much my car is actually putting out. It's quite a difference, and it's WAY fun haha. Really though, I'm not sure if any of my setups have put out what they were supposed to, and I'm not sure if it's because of the altitude or what.

I am already using the FJO water injection kit. It's injected about half way between the IC and the intake elbow, JUST past the BOV. I'd heard of people (well, mainly you haha) injecting at the turbo, but I was wondering how much, if any, got stuck in the IC and never made it to the engine. I also figured since mine is injected anyway and not just sprayed, I wouldn't need the turbo to atomize it so I could put it pretty much wherever, but I still wanted to put it just past the IC instead of in the elbow. I'm not using it for more HP though, I'm only using it for protection of the engine. I'm using windshield wiper fluid...it's already mixed the same every time, so I don't have to worry about mixing up ratios (which I probably would lol). I was using just distilled water at first but it got cold enough pre-winter that it froze and burst my pressure sensor, so I moved to wiper fluid.

[just startn]

Originally Posted by speedjunkie

Don't know yet. For one, I'm not sure what all the options are haha, and I haven't talked to Tom (the guy that's going to build it) about all that yet either, I just asked him if he'd build it for me. He has hand-built whole exhaust systems before and they're gorgeous. So I think he'll do just fine haha. And luckily he's local, so I'll just drive my car over there when I get back and start pulling out the turbo and manifold so he can get to work.

Anyway, I'd like to use a size similar to the pic I posted on the previous page, something large enough that I don't have to worry about it being restrictive. I'm not sure what sizes are offered in 321 though.

I know this is more than what you asked, I'm just excited about it haha.
.

A good site that is easy to navigate threw and give some idea. http://www.mandrel-bends.com/catalog...ilder-kits-46/

[speedjunkie]

Awesome, thanks! I'll check it out.

[speedjunkie]

http://www.bellintercoolers.com/_pages/aachart450.html

After doing some looking around, I think I've decided to go with an IC core sized 4.5x14 and either 10.10" (741CFM @ 10psi) or 11" (807CFM @ 10psi), and using 3" inlet and 2.75" outlet. The 4.5x14x10.10 would give me pretty much what I should be getting with my current IC, if it were made by the same company. By using a shorter IC, I'm hoping for faster response, but I'm also somewhat concerned about it being too short to be as efficient at cooling as my current 18" core. I guess it's not all that much shorter though, and hopefully the 1/4" smaller outlet would slow the air just a bit, but not too much.

There is an added benefit to this as well though. I've thought about how to duct the IC and radiator, and since the IC will be shorter, I will have an adjustable duct for each of them. Or maybe I'll just have an adjustable duct on the radiator and then mount the side pieces of ducting for the IC to the vertical part of the radiator ducting. Not sure that makes sense to anyone haha. Anyway, this will allow me to have more room for my air filter (and I can make an airbox for it too) and it will also allow me to mount an aftermarket PS cooler on the other side of the IC, into the ducting for the radiator. I'm getting very excited about this. Now if I could just get home to work on it lol. My only decision now is to chance starting this before DGRR or wait until after. I'd rather have it done before, but I guess I'll see.

I'd like to even reinstall AC and heat by the end of this year, but we'll see about that haha. With this shorter IC I'd have room for the canister in it's stock location, next to where the battery used to sit.