TitaniumTT's I hope I make it to DGRR '09 Build

[vex]

Pube thing?... Good Luck B, I'll be tearing out my rear end tomorrow and putting it all back together later on that day. Hopefully that will solve my vibration problem. We'll see though. GL

[TitaniumTT]

Yeah, drop a pube in each housing when assembling for good luck. I've never done it, wondering if I should.

[classicauto]

I actually kissed my rotors during my last assembly. Its holding up well, maybe give that a shot

[TitaniumTT]

Sounds good to me. So I'm at KDR right now waiting to see a 500WRHP 500R run.

Damage assesment - warped Apex seals. Everything else is PERFECT. Already ordered new seals and will be ordering new side seals on Monday. I'm leaving the e-shaft, irons, bearings, stat gears, and rotors here for Dave to Cryo. Hopefully pick up before the holiday weekend and start my own fireworks on Monday. Lets hope.

[FC3S Murray]

Originally Posted by classicauto

I actually kissed my rotors during my last assembly. Its holding up well, maybe give that a shot

I am gonna fucking MAKE OUT with this engine build. Tongue in everything!

Damage assesment - warped Apex seals

DAMN! You warped RA Super Seals? You definately went lean then. Those injectors were the problem right?

[TitaniumTT]

Yeah, BIG time warpage. I haven't heard from Tim yet as to how bad they are, but picking that shit out of the primary was a pretty good indication that they're fucked. And if the combined AFR's were ~ 13.5+ imagine what the front only was if the rear was pretty spot on. I'm thinking 15-16 under 15-20psi. A little frightening. Regardless, I called Laura and have a set of seals and springs on their way to me now. Im planning on picking up my cryo'ed parts on thursday/friday and will hopefully have a long block my Tuesday, so back up and running by the 8th and maybe make Pocono on the 20th.

I may make sweet sweet love to the exhaust ports

[EJayCe996]

*cough*ceramic*cough*...... this isn't where I parked my car...

[TitaniumTT]

It was rec'd to me to use the RA Supers so that's what I went with the first time and the second as well. We'll see.....

I've never really heard anything too special about the ceramics. Mostly internet rumors and myths and no real experience.

What's your take on them?

[EJayCe996]

Well given the properties of ceramics, in general, they can withstand a lot of heat and aren't exactly something that warp easy (most will average in the 2500*F range and special types well over 5,000*). But on the other hand, depending on the grade/type of ceramic, they can be extremely brittle which is the part I'm still trying to figure out why those few that are running ceramics and have detonated on them slightly and had no damage are giving credit to the ceramic for not breaking like steel seals probably would. The main issue is none of the ceramic seal makers will divulge the technical information of the construction of them.

I'm actually amazed I remember any of this from my science classes

[TitaniumTT]

The price is something that also causes me "concern." Breaking a set of $280 seals is, not ok but not tragic. If I lost a set of $1800 seals.... I would kill. Actually Kill.

From what I understand,
NRS lowered thier price to about $1,200 for a set of seals and springs
Ceramics give much better compression than steels before being broken in, but I haven't heard anything of what the comp is like after bedding the engine in. Actually, I got very similar results to the ceramics with the last engine I built - ~130psi.
When they do break, the just disintegrate leaving the housing in-tact.

I dunno, maybe I'll try them eventually, but not with this engine. I'm not looking for ridiculous amounts of power from a teeny tiny turbo cranked to 30psi and overheating the shit out of everything.

Meh, I'll talk to Dave when I'm there next.

[FC3S Murray]

1800 for seals would be hard to justify. NOW if I made over 6 figures a year then no biggie. Uncle Sam pays me well but not THAT well.

BTW man, when you shipped those housings, did you buy the signiture verification as well? Need to know if I need to be home when they arrive. Thanks bud.

[EJayCe996]

Originally Posted by TitaniumTT

I dunno, maybe I'll try them eventually, but not with this engine. I'm not looking for ridiculous amounts of power from a teeny tiny turbo cranked to 30psi and overheating the shit out of everything.

[vex]

Originally Posted by TitaniumTT

The price is something that also causes me "concern." Breaking a set of $280 seals is, not ok but not tragic. If I lost a set of $1800 seals.... I would kill. Actually Kill.

From what I understand,
NRS lowered thier price to about $1,200 for a set of seals and springs
Ceramics give much better compression than steels before being broken in, but I haven't heard anything of what the comp is like after bedding the engine in. Actually, I got very similar results to the ceramics with the last engine I built - ~130psi.
When they do break, the just disintegrate leaving the housing in-tact.

I dunno, maybe I'll try them eventually, but not with this engine. I'm not looking for ridiculous amounts of power from a teeny tiny turbo cranked to 30psi and overheating the shit out of everything.

Meh, I'll talk to Dave when I'm there next.

Depending on the seals construction will dictate the disintigration characteristics. The brittle-ness of the seal itself will only come into question when the elastic deformation stress is exceeded. Here's an example of a probably ceramic make up and stress strain curve
http://www.azom.com/Details.asp?ArticleID=3016


As you notice the elogation percentage is extremely low when dealing with the elastic deformation portion of the curve. These of course are in the tensile strength directions and for our purposes we would need to see the compressive strength readings and deformations. This however would appear to be valuable data as ceramics usually have much higher numbers when comparing their compressive strength (stress/strain) and their tensile strength (Much on the orders of magnitude).

[TitaniumTT]

Originally Posted by FC3S Murray

1800 for seals would be hard to justify. NOW if I made over 6 figures a year then no biggie. Uncle Sam pays me well but not THAT well.

BTW man, when you shipped those housings, did you buy the signiture verification as well? Need to know if I need to be home when they arrive. Thanks bud.

Yeah, if you're competing and need every advantage regardless of cost, then sure. You gotta pay to play. Fine, but for a street car? I can't see the expense.

Yeah, I bought everything, always do, sig veri, ins, tracking..

Originally Posted by EJayCe996

Instead, I'm using two tiny turbo's cranked to 15-20 and looking for 400 wheel. Highest sequential rwhp that I've ever seen has been 380, and Dave actually tuned that car. We wanna break that.

Originally Posted by vex

Depending on the seals construction will dictate the disintigration characteristics. The brittle-ness of the seal itself will only come into question when the elastic deformation stress is exceeded. Here's an example of a probably ceramic make up and stress strain curve
http://www.azom.com/Details.asp?ArticleID=3016


As you notice the elogation percentage is extremely low when dealing with the elastic deformation portion of the curve. These of course are in the tensile strength directions and for our purposes we would need to see the compressive strength readings and deformations. This however would appear to be valuable data as ceramics usually have much higher numbers when comparing their compressive strength (stress/strain) and their tensile strength (Much on the orders of magnitude).

So the english translation is they're stronger

But seriously, are we talking 10% stronger when detonated, 50% 100%?

[vex]

Originally Posted by TitaniumTT

Yeah, if you're competing and need every advantage regardless of cost, then sure. You gotta pay to play. Fine, but for a street car? I can't see the expense.

Yeah, I bought everything, always do, sig veri, ins, tracking..



Instead, I'm using two tiny turbo's cranked to 15-20 and looking for 400 wheel. Highest sequential rwhp that I've ever seen has been 380, and Dave actually tuned that car. We wanna break that.



So the english translation is they're stronger

But seriously, are we talking 10% stronger when detonated, 50% 100%?

Let me look up some stress/strain for carbon steel. I'm honestly surprised that stainless steel isn't used for seals...