E85, stock turbo II

sen2two · 07-27-2009, 08:11 PM

first i'll give some info, and my question is at the bottom...

heres some things debunking all the myths about e85...

did some research about the "myths" and the cons of e85... some good news came up... so as it turns out, e85will not in no way harm anything.

Im going to copy paste the ones that are relevant. i did not write these...

1. E85 Ethanol is corrosive?

Yes ethanol is corrosive, but not very much. Gasoline is corrosive too. Ethanol is biodegradable in water. So it has a tendency to contain and attract water. It is not the corrosive properties of ethanol that can cause damage to your vehicle; it is the water which can rust a vehicle’s fuel system from the inside out. Today’s vehicles (since mid 1980s) have fuel systems which are made to withstand corrosive motor fuels and rust from water. Also today’s distilling processes are superior to way back when. We now have better techniques for drying out ethanol or reducing the water content.

On side note, gas contains water too. Ever hear of dry gas?

2. If I put E85 in my gas tank, it will eat it away?

If your car was built in the old days, it was had a lead coated, steel tank. The water in ethanol would cause the tank to rust from the inside out. The government mandated that all gas in the USA contain 10% ethanol to help reduce tail pipe emissions. In the 1980s, automakers made vehicles with fuel systems to be ethanol and rust tolerant. Gas tanks began to contain polymers and Teflon which are extremely durable.

4. Ethanol will burn up my engine?

Ethanol has a lower ignition point than gas. Ethanol has about 115 octane and E85 has 105 octane. It burns cooler and will extend engine life by preventing the burning of engine valves and prevent the build-up of olefins in fuel injectors, keeping the fuel system cleaner.

5. Ethanol will ruin gaskets, seals, rings and more?

Running 100% ethanol or alcohol in an engine can cause damage to cork products.

The rubber neoprene used in the last 20 + years is resistant to the drying effect that ethanol may have.

Today's vehicles are built to withstand the corrosive effects of water in ethanol and gasoline. Any vehicle built since 1985 will have no ethanol related issues. Older vehicles that used more steel in the fuel systems or cork gaskets may have issues from long term exposure to water.

Vehicles in Brazil have been using ethanol for 30 years and they are completely free from using any foreign oil.

6. E85 will eat my rubber fuel lines?

This is another myth from the old days. Rubber technology has significantly advanced so the concerns of a 20 year old car or newer having issues like this are extremely rare. Plus the 15% gas will help keep lines lubricated.

7. E85 will destroy my fuel pump?

E85 won’t destroy your fuel pump. If you convert a high mileage vehicle to Flex Fuel, the E85 will cause the sediment in the gas tank to dissolve and then get sucked up by the fuel pump. It is believed that this sediment may shorten the life of the pump of your higher mileage vehicle (100,000+). We have had no reports from customers with damaged fuel pumps.

so basically, unless your driving something older than 1985. you'll be just fine... sorry 1st gen guys...

being a little cheap here... and i really want to know if i can just upgrade my injectors and run it just fine...

question:

On my basically stock turbo II, im looking to run e85. the way i see it is, if you need 30% more e85, then you could essentially just upgrade the injectors 30% larger and leave it all stock with no tuning. so, my TII has 550's all around.

30% of 550 is 165.

550+165= 715.

so i could just upgrage to 750s all around and be just fine? I already upgraded to a walbro 255 pump with -6 lines from an aluminum fuel cell. and an edelbrock filter that is a metal screen instead of paper filter. so no worrys about water being trapped in the filter...

any ideas here from someone whos experienced in this?

RETed · 07-27-2009, 08:52 PM

Don't believe the hype - it's a sequel...

Ethanol's BTU content is lower than gasoline.
This is why you need MORE ethanol versus the same amount of gasoline to make the same power.
Ethanol tends to settle out with any mixture with gasoline.
This is not a problem when you don't let it sit around, like for more daily drivers.
It's a BIG problem when you don't drive your vehicle every day - I know some of us don't.
Go talk to boat owners about this - they will tell you the real deal.

The U.S. federal government (and others) have been hyping the use of ethanol to get away from dependence on fossil fuels, but there are drawbacks...
Farmers have converted their farm lands to raise crops to make ethanol - usually corn.
These crops require higher use of fertilizers and chemicals - runoff's are increased.
Did you notice the increase of grocery items?
Especially anything based on WHEAT?
Bakery items such as bread?
Wheat farm lands have been converted to crops for ethanol, so wheat production has dropped.
Lower supply...higher prices.
The price for wheat and wheat products have basically doubled before all this ethanol crap.
So stuff like bread prices went up cause of the wheat flour prices going up.

Lesse...use ethanol which has lower BTU content...less miles per tank of gas...wheat prices go up...environment gets screwed...

Wow, that sound so much more superior...

...not.

I got no problem with you asking about E85 tuning.
I have a problem when you spew propaganda which do not tell you the whole truth.

-Ted

sen2two · 07-28-2009, 12:48 AM

ok, i left out all the enviorment/farming related parts because thats not what im asking. i read all about it, and thats why i cut it out of the copy pasted items. I could combat some of what you said. but thats not what im trying to do. aslo, dont forget bio-diesel and others are also causing the rise in food costs.

now, what im trying to figure out, is if i can just upgrade to 4x750's instead of the 550's (thats slightly over 30% increase) without any tuning...

Ender · 07-28-2009, 08:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sen2two

now, what im trying to figure out, is if i can just upgrade to 4x750's instead of the 550's (thats slightly over 30% increase) without any tuning...

classicauto · 07-28-2009, 01:31 PM

I've never heard of anyone doing it on a stock TII.

But the conversions I've known about are basically that straightforward, setting all the other variables aside.

So in short - in should work. But bear in mind your fuel mileage will also drop by 30%.

sen2two · 07-28-2009, 03:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ender

yeah, thanks for the help. this was informative...

felx fuel cars do not run different MAPs everytime they switch from regular gas to e85. but the cars are tued to run better on gas, but drive just fine on e85. kinda like a happy medium, but more tuned towards gasoline.

its no different for any car. if you set the fuel increase right (atleast from what ive seen) you should be able to run it without any tuning. just seeing if maybe someone out there has done it yet. tips from EXPERIENCED people is what i look for. not people posting cause there bored such as yourself.

sen2two · 07-28-2009, 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by classicauto

I've never heard of anyone doing it on a stock TII.

But the conversions I've known about are basically that straightforward, setting all the other variables aside.

So in short - in should work. But bear in mind your fuel mileage will also drop by 30%.

^take notes Ender. thats the correct way to answer a question.

I understand the fuel milage loss. but then again e85 is cheaper. from the studies that have been done, it still costs a little more to run e85. but its not much of a difference money wise. i'll just be making more trips to the pump...

MaczPayne · 07-28-2009, 04:30 PM

Interesting

moremazda · 07-28-2009, 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sen2two

felx fuel cars do not run different MAPs everytime they switch from regular gas to e85.

Yes they do. In fact the ecu has two distinctly different sets of fuel tables for base and correction (including fuel temperature) that it blends between based upon the ethanol content of the fuel in the lines. Ethanol is not a straight conversion like you are making it out to be. Ethanol has many different properties than gasoline that are addressed by the modern flex fuel ECU's.

Like I said on the "other" board you could swap in the 720's and for the most part in the summer it should work just fine, but your millage will most likely suck, and if you drive it in the winter good luck getting it started. On the positive note you could probably run that stock turbo right through the hood and not have to worry about the engine dieing from pre-ignition, compressor wheel shrapnel maybe, but not pre-ignition.

Ryan

Ender · 07-29-2009, 12:54 AM

If you really want to convert you might look into something like this:
http://www.zeitronix.com/Products/ECA/ECA.htm

Boostmaniac · 08-10-2009, 04:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by moremazda

Yes they do. In fact the ecu has two distinctly different sets of fuel tables for base and correction (including fuel temperature) that it blends between based upon the ethanol content of the fuel in the lines. Ethanol is not a straight conversion like you are making it out to be. Ethanol has many different properties than gasoline that are addressed by the modern flex fuel ECU's.

Like I said on the "other" board you could swap in the 720's and for the most part in the summer it should work just fine, but your millage will most likely suck, and if you drive it in the winter good luck getting it started. On the positive note you could probably run that stock turbo right through the hood and not have to worry about the engine dieing from pre-ignition, compressor wheel shrapnel maybe, but not pre-ignition.

Ryan

Lol, yeah. 18 psi, 74 degrees BTDC, zero pre-ignition.... if it'll start.

If you do this, just borrow a wideband and keep a close eye on your AFR's. Remember the stock ECU loves to run pig rich so you may end up having to pull fuel around the torque peak if it gets chunky on the dyno.

This sounds like a fun experiment, let me know how it goes.

SecondGenPat · 08-12-2009, 12:08 PM

about a month after buying my stock/unmodified 87 n/a I tried a full tank of E85 out of curiosity to what the primitive eec would do:

The car started every time, however it ran like crap, the idle was horrible, huge lack of power, constant misfires, and horrible fuel consumption.

Those were my results, hope that helps in your decision.

If you want to run E85, go for it. Be an innovator, challenge the old ideas, try new things. If it breaks, it breaks, but you will come out of it with more knowledge than the guy who is too afraid or just does what he is told to do. That is what makes our passion for automobiles a passion.
-Pat

sen2two · 08-13-2009, 03:42 AM

^ i like your thinking...

im pretty sure if you would of just advanced the CAS it would of ran much better. not great, but better.

SecondGenPat · 08-13-2009, 08:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sen2two

^ i like your thinking...

im pretty sure if you would of just advanced the CAS it would of ran much better. not great, but better.

I did try to adjust my CAS, I even went as far as removing the stud that the nut threads onto so that I could go beyond stock limits, it didn't really help.
I also played with the idle mixture screw, still no help.

rx4ur7 · 08-13-2009, 03:03 PM

Well guys, I am going to try it. Have a forced air EFI sandrail here that cracked an apex seal besides flattening the springs. Ignition was locked at 34* advance and then found
NA rotors. I was trying to convince the owner to let us try E85 before I tore it down and found the rotors. Cost is going up and he really doesn't what to have to go for a new set of turbo rotors. So he has now OK'd the project.

For grins we are first going to see what everything looks like with the original setup. I believe we will be upgrading the pump, injectors and get an E6. I will try to keep posting updates on the shop website.
Thinking of selling the NOS system.

07-27-2009, 08:11 PM	#1
sen2two KTEC Join Date: Jan 2009 iTrader: (2) Posts: 642 Rep Power: 0	E85, stock turbo II first i'll give some info, and my question is at the bottom... heres some things debunking all the myths about e85... did some research about the "myths" and the cons of e85... some good news came up... so as it turns out, e85will not in no way harm anything. Im going to copy paste the ones that are relevant. i did not write these... 1. E85 Ethanol is corrosive? Yes ethanol is corrosive, but not very much. Gasoline is corrosive too. Ethanol is biodegradable in water. So it has a tendency to contain and attract water. It is not the corrosive properties of ethanol that can cause damage to your vehicle; it is the water which can rust a vehicle’s fuel system from the inside out. Today’s vehicles (since mid 1980s) have fuel systems which are made to withstand corrosive motor fuels and rust from water. Also today’s distilling processes are superior to way back when. We now have better techniques for drying out ethanol or reducing the water content. On side note, gas contains water too. Ever hear of dry gas? 2. If I put E85 in my gas tank, it will eat it away? If your car was built in the old days, it was had a lead coated, steel tank. The water in ethanol would cause the tank to rust from the inside out. The government mandated that all gas in the USA contain 10% ethanol to help reduce tail pipe emissions. In the 1980s, automakers made vehicles with fuel systems to be ethanol and rust tolerant. Gas tanks began to contain polymers and Teflon which are extremely durable. 4. Ethanol will burn up my engine? Ethanol has a lower ignition point than gas. Ethanol has about 115 octane and E85 has 105 octane. It burns cooler and will extend engine life by preventing the burning of engine valves and prevent the build-up of olefins in fuel injectors, keeping the fuel system cleaner. 5. Ethanol will ruin gaskets, seals, rings and more? Running 100% ethanol or alcohol in an engine can cause damage to cork products. The rubber neoprene used in the last 20 + years is resistant to the drying effect that ethanol may have. Today's vehicles are built to withstand the corrosive effects of water in ethanol and gasoline. Any vehicle built since 1985 will have no ethanol related issues. Older vehicles that used more steel in the fuel systems or cork gaskets may have issues from long term exposure to water. Vehicles in Brazil have been using ethanol for 30 years and they are completely free from using any foreign oil. 6. E85 will eat my rubber fuel lines? This is another myth from the old days. Rubber technology has significantly advanced so the concerns of a 20 year old car or newer having issues like this are extremely rare. Plus the 15% gas will help keep lines lubricated. 7. E85 will destroy my fuel pump? E85 won’t destroy your fuel pump. If you convert a high mileage vehicle to Flex Fuel, the E85 will cause the sediment in the gas tank to dissolve and then get sucked up by the fuel pump. It is believed that this sediment may shorten the life of the pump of your higher mileage vehicle (100,000+). We have had no reports from customers with damaged fuel pumps. so basically, unless your driving something older than 1985. you'll be just fine... sorry 1st gen guys... being a little cheap here... and i really want to know if i can just upgrade my injectors and run it just fine... question: On my basically stock turbo II, im looking to run e85. the way i see it is, if you need 30% more e85, then you could essentially just upgrade the injectors 30% larger and leave it all stock with no tuning. so, my TII has 550's all around. 30% of 550 is 165. 550+165= 715. so i could just upgrage to 750s all around and be just fine? I already upgraded to a walbro 255 pump with -6 lines from an aluminum fuel cell. and an edelbrock filter that is a metal screen instead of paper filter. so no worrys about water being trapped in the filter... any ideas here from someone whos experienced in this? __________________ what I have: 1985 Gs:12a All motor Drag car - 1973 Rx2: Play car What I had: 93 Touring: TRADED - 91 Coupe: TRADED - 90 GTU: RHD - 88 10AE: SOLD - 87 Base: SOLD - 86 Base: SOLD - 1985 GSLSE - 85 Gsl: SOLD - 80 Gs: TRADED - 1972 Rx2

07-28-2009, 12:48 AM	#3
sen2two KTEC Join Date: Jan 2009 iTrader: (2) Posts: 642 Rep Power: 0	ok, i left out all the enviorment/farming related parts because thats not what im asking. i read all about it, and thats why i cut it out of the copy pasted items. I could combat some of what you said. but thats not what im trying to do. aslo, dont forget bio-diesel and others are also causing the rise in food costs. now, what im trying to figure out, is if i can just upgrade to 4x750's instead of the 550's (thats slightly over 30% increase) without any tuning... __________________ what I have: 1985 Gs:12a All motor Drag car - 1973 Rx2: Play car What I had: 93 Touring: TRADED - 91 Coupe: TRADED - 90 GTU: RHD - 88 10AE: SOLD - 87 Base: SOLD - 86 Base: SOLD - 1985 GSLSE - 85 Gsl: SOLD - 80 Gs: TRADED - 1972 Rx2

07-28-2009, 04:30 PM	#8
MaczPayne Bah! Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Riverside, SoCal iTrader: (1) Posts: 442 Rep Power: 17	Interesting __________________ Johnson TA FC in the works!

08-12-2009, 12:08 PM	#12
SecondGenPat Start a Revolution Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Park Ridge, NJ iTrader: (0) Posts: 29 Rep Power: 0	about a month after buying my stock/unmodified 87 n/a I tried a full tank of E85 out of curiosity to what the primitive eec would do: The car started every time, however it ran like crap, the idle was horrible, huge lack of power, constant misfires, and horrible fuel consumption. Those were my results, hope that helps in your decision. If you want to run E85, go for it. Be an innovator, challenge the old ideas, try new things. If it breaks, it breaks, but you will come out of it with more knowledge than the guy who is too afraid or just does what he is told to do. That is what makes our passion for automobiles a passion. -Pat __________________ That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government -The United Stated Declaration of Independence

08-13-2009, 03:42 AM	#13
sen2two KTEC Join Date: Jan 2009 iTrader: (2) Posts: 642 Rep Power: 0	^ i like your thinking... im pretty sure if you would of just advanced the CAS it would of ran much better. not great, but better. __________________ what I have: 1985 Gs:12a All motor Drag car - 1973 Rx2: Play car What I had: 93 Touring: TRADED - 91 Coupe: TRADED - 90 GTU: RHD - 88 10AE: SOLD - 87 Base: SOLD - 86 Base: SOLD - 1985 GSLSE - 85 Gsl: SOLD - 80 Gs: TRADED - 1972 Rx2

08-13-2009, 03:03 PM	#15
rx4ur7 Rotary since 1972 Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Tucson iTrader: (0) Posts: 231 Rep Power: 17	Well guys, I am going to try it. Have a forced air EFI sandrail here that cracked an apex seal besides flattening the springs. Ignition was locked at 34* advance and then found NA rotors. I was trying to convince the owner to let us try E85 before I tore it down and found the rotors. Cost is going up and he really doesn't what to have to go for a new set of turbo rotors. So he has now OK'd the project. For grins we are first going to see what everything looks like with the original setup. I believe we will be upgrading the pump, injectors and get an E6. I will try to keep posting updates on the shop website. Thinking of selling the NOS system.

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