Plain Jane OEM nothing to see here rebuild

[RETed]

Originally Posted by JustJeff

I didn't find any seals broken in half, but I did find two inner coolant seals shreaded quite easily. But that seemed almost normal for the inner.

Yes.
Typically, the stock inner water jacket o-rings tend to "delam" when removed. The inner, orange stuff is silicone.
The outer white "liner" is Teflon?
The two materials don't adhere to each other too well.

One side note...
Mazda recommends putting the "seam" of the inner water jacket o-ring seal toward the intake port.
At this location, this is the area where that seal sees the least amount of stress - heat and pressure.
I noticed that you got your seams in approximately the 12 o'clock position almost dead top.

I have not started cleaning parts yet and snapped some pics of what I think are suspicious looking coolant seals still in the grooves.

In general, you don't usually worry about them, although the one pic with the longer "cut" in it is kinda weird.
The seal has no where to go, so as long as the tear doesn't grow, the seal should stay intact.

Something bad did happen while transporting the engine after the flywheel and front bolt had been broken free. Engine came free of it's restraints and rolled in the back of the van. I'll get some pics tomorrow of my front and rear iron for opinions.

You talking about that "smear" toward the center of the iron?
Does it pass the fingernail test?
Can you tell it's a depression by running your fingertip over it?


-Ted

[JustJeff]

Here is my big concern. The engine was being transported after having the flywheel nut and front stack nut broken free. It came free of restraints and rolled. Torsion bearing was damaged and one of the cylindrical bearings fell into the engine. My assumption is that there will be an oil leak at that location from there being too much space between surface and oil control ring???


Here are some wider angle pics of irons.



Different pic of same middle iron facing




I didn't notice this while taking the pics, but did while moving pics from smartphone to computer. Rust in the seal channel?

[RETed]

Originally Posted by JustJeff

I didn't notice this while taking the pics, but did while moving pics from smartphone to computer. Rust in the seal channel?

Yeah, that's not a good sign...
Assuming the irons were cleaned methodically, the rust was not there upon assembly.
It's safe to say that the rust formed after the engine was put together, so coolant was getting past the seal somehow...
Not good.


I've cropped one of your pics here...



Red circle shows possible sign of coolant entering the combustion chamber.
Looking at the orientation of the iron, this would be the "top" of the combustion cycle.
Blue circle shows the coolant trying to burn inside the engine - coolant doesn't burn well so it leaves traces like this...

This would be my guess where the coolant leak came from.


-Ted

[JustJeff]

Are these deformations significant?

[RETed]

Originally Posted by JustJeff

Are these deformations significant?

Again, like the cuts, usually not a big deal...
Seal has no where to go.
These dents are typical when using some kinda supplemental sealant with the water jacket o-ring?
Petroleum jelly?
Hylomar?



-Ted

[JustJeff]

Originally Posted by RETed

Yes.
Typically, the stock inner water jacket o-rings tend to "delam" when removed. The inner, orange stuff is silicone.
The outer white "liner" is Teflon?
The two materials don't adhere to each other too well.

One side note...
Mazda recommends putting the "seam" of the inner water jacket o-ring seal toward the intake port.
At this location, this is the area where that seal sees the least amount of stress - heat and pressure.
I noticed that you got your seams in approximately the 12 o'clock position almost dead top.



In general, you don't usually worry about them, although the one pic with the longer "cut" in it is kinda weird.
The seal has no where to go, so as long as the tear doesn't grow, the seal should stay intact.





You talking about that "smear" toward the center of the iron?
Does it pass the fingernail test?
Can you tell it's a depression by running your fingertip over it?


-Ted

I'll have to rewatch the dvd, but I believe Atkins dvd suggest putting them at 12 o'clock.

About the damage on the front iron. I've reposted the pic. The circled area you can catch your fingernail on. It's been almost a week since I've touched the front iron....but as I remember it you can feel a depression but can only catch your nail in the circled area. I'll reconfirm that later today.

Originally Posted by RETed

Again, like the cuts, usually not a big deal...
Seal has no where to go.
These dents are typical when using some kinda supplemental sealant with the water jacket o-ring?
Petroleum jelly?
Hylomar?



-Ted

I used hylomar

[RETed]

Originally Posted by JustJeff

I'll have to rewatch the dvd, but I believe Atkins dvd suggest putting them at 12 o'clock.

I guess the 12 o'clock position is technically not wrong, according to the FSM...

I prefer to put the splice where the intake ports are located.
This is the coolest area in the housing.

Sorry for the bad pics, but these are pics from the 1987 and 1991 FSM's...

About the damage on the front iron. I've reposted the pic. The circled area you can catch your fingernail on. It's been almost a week since I've touched the front iron....but as I remember it you can feel a depression but can only catch your nail in the circled area.

I don't think that area is an area where the oil control seals actually run over, but maybe someone else can confirm?

Also, do you have your oil control labeled so you know which one goes where?
This might help, but can you mic out the height of the oil control metal rings?
If that area is affecting the oil control ring, it could be abrasive enough to cause the oil control ring to wear prematurely.


-Ted

[JustJeff]

I have gotten myself confused while checking my irons for warpage. I'm confused about the difference between checking for warpage and checking for step wear.

Warpage tolerance is 0.0016
Step wear tolerance is 0.003

Doesn't that mean there are areas on the combustion surface where step wear tolerance is higher/greater than warpage tolerance? I check my tolerance for warpage per the FSM at 4 points. Once I get into oil seal wear area there is an even greater tolerance(0.0008) and my 0.0015 feeler can slide under my straight edge. I'm also taking the straight edge across areas other than the 4 pts in FSM and finding some variations. Can someone help clarify.

Also does anyone know if the Pineapple Racing streaming videos are down? I used them for my previous rebuild and they were incredibly helpful. I sent them an email today but I expect I won't get a response till Monday.

Last question for this post. With that damage on the front iron on the rough, non-combustion area but then extending into oil ring area and possibly into side seal area.

What will the be the result of using that iron on the engine. I'm not seeing any irons for sale and am considering using the iron?

[RETed]

Originally Posted by JustJeff

I have gotten myself confused while checking my irons for warpage. I'm confused about the difference between checking for warpage and checking for step wear.

Warpage tolerance is 0.0016
Step wear tolerance is 0.003

Doesn't that mean there are areas on the combustion surface where step wear tolerance is higher/greater than warpage tolerance? I check my tolerance for warpage per the FSM at 4 points. Once I get into oil seal wear area there is an even greater tolerance(0.0008) and my 0.0015 feeler can slide under my straight edge. I'm also taking the straight edge across areas other than the 4 pts in FSM and finding some variations. Can someone help clarify.

Okay, "step wear" is defined by any gouge or valley *under* the measured surface.
I believe the FSM is specific to the areas - the most critical areas are at the 3 o'clock and 9 o'clock positions about 1" from the inner water jacket groove.

"Warpage" is defined by *any* deviation - whether is be "high" or "low" measured along a surface.
Technically, any "wear" (including the above "step wear") should not factor into this warpage inspection.
Warpage is to measure how much deflection out of parallel or perpendicular a surface is...usually across a broad area.


-Ted

[JustJeff]

Originally Posted by RETed

Okay, "step wear" is defined by any gouge or valley *under* the measured surface.
I believe the FSM is specific to the areas - the most critical areas are at the 3 o'clock and 9 o'clock positions about 1" from the inner water jacket groove.

"Warpage" is defined by *any* deviation - whether is be "high" or "low" measured along a surface.
Technically, any "wear" (including the above "step wear") should not factor into this warpage inspection.
Warpage is to measure how much deflection out of parallel or perpendicular a surface is...usually across a broad area.


-Ted

Gotcha, thanks for clarifying Ted.

[RETed]

If the $200 - $250 price tag for a brand new one bothers you, you can always get one used...
For a while, I was chasing a lot of them off of eBay.
I can usually get one for about $100 - $150 depending on condition.
If you're lucky, you can get one for under $100.
(A lot of pawn shops tend to dump them on eBay.)
You can always get them recalibrated locally through the Snap On dealer with a nominal fee.
Or, you can buy a calibration machine for like $1,000...

This is something that I would not skimp on.
That's just the way I view the work.
I first started out with a (brand new) Sears Craftsman torque wrench...
The nut in the handle backed out and fell apart in my hands...literally.
I went in and told them I wanted my money back.

All your mil-spec and civilian contractor torque wrenches will most likely be Snap On, although I've seen a few Proto's here and there.
You'll see them pop up on eBay - with set torque levels that cannot be adjusted.

This is something I see as an investment.
Your torque settings can make or break what you're building or servicing.
In the end, is the ~$200 that expensive?
Most of us drop at least $1,000 for a rebuild just on parts...
Specifically for the tension bolts, since we're looking at the 30 lb-ft range, you're most likely looking at a wrench that does 0 - 50 lb-ft.
(Rule of thumb is to shoot for the middle of the adjustment range.)
That covers the majority of fasteners in your FC short of the flywheel nut, front eccentric shaft bolt, wheel hubs, and maybe some of the larger suspension fasteners, so that torque wrench is not likely going to just sit on the shelf collecting dust once you're done with the rebuild (tension bolts).


-Ted

[JustJeff]

I'm dissapointed that when I took my engine apart I did not find a smoking gun showing a blown out coolant seal and am concerned that I'll put this engine back together without identifying why/where/how the coolant seal failed.

Ted circled a pic in a previous post showing where he'd bet the seal failed. My concern is all my iron surfaces look very similar and seem to be tied to hylomar staining. Here's some pics with areas having similar staining.





Unrelated to staining, look how thin the wall is at this point. It looks cast that way and doesn't at all feel like corrosion. Should I be concerned?

[RETed]

You can ignore the outer water jacket groove.
I've never seen a failure on the outside one unless we're talking severe corrosion problem or extreme overheating.
The majority of the punishment is done to the inner water jacket since it has to seal combustion!
More specifically, the area from 12 o'clock to 9 o'clock (or vice versa, depending on how you're looking at the housing) which is the area where you start the ignition cycle through the combustion cycle to the end of the exhaust cycle is most important.

Sometimes it's very hard to tell from just pics on where the coolant leak came from.
It's almost necessary to be there - in person - to get a good idea of what is going on.
I tried to the best job just by the pics you posted...

Another question...
Assumed you did torque the engine down in the specified order...
How much torque did you tighten the tension bolts down to?
What kinda torque wrench?


-Ted

[JustJeff]

Originally Posted by RETed

You can ignore the outer water jacket groove.
I've never seen a failure on the outside one unless we're talking severe corrosion problem or extreme overheating.
The majority of the punishment is done to the inner water jacket since it has to seal combustion!
More specifically, the area from 12 o'clock to 9 o'clock (or vice versa, depending on how you're looking at the housing) which is the area where you start the ignition cycle through the combustion cycle to the end of the exhaust cycle is most important.

Sometimes it's very hard to tell from just pics on where the coolant leak came from.
It's almost necessary to be there - in person - to get a good idea of what is going on.
I tried to the best job just by the pics you posted...

Another question...
Assumed you did torque the engine down in the specified order...
How much torque did you tighten the tension bolts down to?
What kinda torque wrench?


-Ted

You have been very helpful Ted

I figured the same thing about that thin spot, but thought it was odd that it had a thin spot.

I don't remember the specific order I torqued the through bolts down in, but I did it in a chris cross pattern. I used a beam torque wrench and did them down to FSM specs..though I don't recall what those numbers are at the moment. I get where you are going with this though and talked to a friend about it just yesterday. If they weren't torqued down correctly wouldn't I have had leaks everywhere. I didn't have any signs of coolant in oil or any outer leaks through the irons and into engine bay. BUT I did transport the assembled keg to a friends shop to use his air tools for the flywheel nut. I doubt the engine "loosened" during transportation....but is it possible?

[RETed]

Originally Posted by JustJeff

I figured the same thing about that thin spot, but thought it was odd that it had a thin spot.

I think the molds were just getting bad toward the end of the production that some of the irons came out like that.
I've seen a lot of them on tear-downs, and they look awfully like massive corrosion...
It's so common that I've just chalked it up to "bad" molds.
Oddly enough, I've never seen a failure in those areas.

I don't remember the specific order I torqued the through bolts down in, but I did it in a chris cross pattern. I used a beam torque wrench and did them down to FSM specs..though I don't recall what those numbers are at the moment. I get where you are going with this though and talked to a friend about it just yesterday. If they weren't torqued down correctly wouldn't I have had leaks everywhere. I didn't have any signs of coolant in oil or any outer leaks through the irons and into engine bay. BUT I did transport the assembled keg to a friends shop to use his air tools for the flywheel nut. I doubt the engine "loosened" during transportation....but is it possible?

I believe the Mazda torque spec is around 27 lb-ft?
I only use Snap On torque wrenches - click-type.
I run my rebuilds at 30 lb-ft.
It's slightly higher than stock spec, but it's not tight enough to interfere with the rotating assembly.
I know guys run them higher, but you run the risk of increasing friction.
I've seen an engine torqued down to 40 lb-ft that almost could not be rotated by hand!
I know Snap On torque wrenches are not cheap, but the ~$200 investment is a good one in this case.


-Ted