who makes a good wideband?

[RICE RACING]

I use a Neko AF700 as permanent install in my RX7, one friend of mine uses the same meter to tune with.

I also use an Autronic B-Model, this one is nice as a stand alone unit not requiring a PC to set up outputs etc.

The Neko uses a hand calibrated NTK
The Autronic is not as good using just a Lab Grade EUGO NTK

Both are light years ahead of lots of other I have used.

[sen2two]

From what everyone is saying... It seems to be that the sensors are the problem, not the actual wideband hardware.

I have the Innovate LM-1, which I only have in the car when I tune it. I also only run pump gas in the car, and a bit of water/meth. Which gives cooler exhaust temps. So the sensor shouldnt really be a problem for me.

Does anyone have a problem with the actual Innovate set-up that dosnt involve the sensor?

Can you upgrade any one of the above listed "better" sensors to the Innovate set-up?

[RICE RACING]

Originally Posted by sen2two

From what everyone is saying... It seems to be that the sensors are the problem, not the actual wideband hardware.

I have the Innovate LM-1, which I only have in the car when I tune it. I also only run pump gas in the car, and a bit of water/meth. Which gives cooler exhaust temps. So the sensor shouldnt really be a problem for me.

Does anyone have a problem with the actual Innovate set-up that dosnt involve the sensor?

Can you upgrade any one of the above listed "better" sensors to the Innovate set-up?

Yes,

The innovate is a toy > like all the ones in that price bracket especial tech edge crap ! they are always OUT compared to professional meters *you should always expect +-0.2 AFR on average with these*.

I tested all of them not on lab gases out of a bottle but on a real car on common feed to new sensors and the cheaper units always especially at rich mixtures were quite random.

I used to bestow the virtues of Innovate stuff wrote hundreds of posts on them and was the sole Australian dealer, but given what I know now there is no way in hell I would recommend one or their technology which is on sold to people like Helltech. NOR would I ever recommend the techedge rubbish that is made in a house in Canberra/Australia by a failed Electronics guru who is regarded by his peers as a "joke" probably why his meters deliver the same results as their owner.

The moral of AFR Instruments is you get an instrument for instruments money, for Toy money you get a Toy.

Save your pennies and buy a proper meter, this is one of the most critical things you will ever measure on a car period, why trust your reading to toys made in someone house or made with flawed technology when for a little more cash you can use the same Gear HKS technology use or what many Automotive OEM companies use to make real performance cars

The NEKO AF-700 is a great unit, look it up on www.rhdjapan.com I am the person who made them stock it its the #1 unit in use in Japan by all top end tuners and development companies, for the cost and what you get its cheap in my books.

[djmtsu]

Originally Posted by RICE RACING

The NEKO AF-700 is a great unit, look it up on www.rhdjapan.com I am the person who made them stock it its the #1 unit in use in Japan by all top end tuners and development companies, for the cost and what you get its cheap in my books.

Lol. You are wayyyy toooo hardcore.

I know I cannot justify a $1400 AF meter for a $400 car.

Looks nice though.

[j9fd3s]

Originally Posted by sen2two

Does anyone have a problem with the actual Innovate set-up that dosnt involve the sensor?

Can you upgrade any one of the above listed "better" sensors to the Innovate set-up?

yes. mine likes to pop one of the capacitors on the board, they actually melt.

AFIK you have to use the bosch sensor (which is a slow POS, designed to go ON a slow POS), the calibrations are different.

IMO its kind of ok, cause i was totally falling into the "the wideband must read a certain number!" trap, instead of looking for how well the engine runs, or power....

for example i put the WB on the PP just to make sure it wasn't too lean, WB said mid 11's, which is much richer than the 13.2 everyone throws out, but the engine LOVED IT. plugs didn't look dark either...

oh and it does help that a weber IDA is fuel only, and its only got about a 5x5 map, with fixed rpm points and it just interpolates between cells

[speedjunkie]

Just to update, as it turns out the cable between the LC-1 and gauge had come unplugged and THAT is why I was getting the three dashes...so technically I still haven't had any problems with the Innovate wideband. They called me back the day after I called them about 5 times and they told me just because it gets three dashes doesn't necessarily mean the sensor is bad, it just means the gauge is getting no communication from the LC-1 at all, so the LC-1 could have been bad too, but in this case it was just the cable.

I feel like an idiot for not checking all my connections, it just never crossed my mind.

[speedjunkie]

Well when my engine blew in January I noticed my wideband was getting the 3 dashes on the gauge again. I figured the cable disconnected again but I didn't worry about it until recently because I had so many projects going on. I was incorrect. All the cables are still attached. I swapped in my old sensor and I get 3 dashes with it too. So either both sensors are bad or there is some other problem I'm not seeing. I went through and checked my wiring and I'm not even sure how this thing ever operated to begin with lol. For some reason I had the system ground and heater ground spliced with a wire going to some "control box" (the little black box next to the ECU) and there are no wires coming out of it, so I'm pretty sure neither of those wires have been grounded for the past 3 years, yet the WB was still working. Hmmmm. I've also had the yellow wire hooked up to AN2 (or AN1, I don't remember which) on the Datalogit, and apparently that is the heater wire so I'm pretty sure that's wrong too, but I'm not sure where to hook it up. I'm going to call Innovate again but at this point I'm leaning towards getting something else. I just got my engine back in and started and I don't know what the AFRs are, and even though I'm only breaking it in for the next 1500 miles and not boosting, I still want to know what the numbers are during this time.

[NoDOHC]

Originally Posted by djmtsu

Lol. You are wayyyy toooo hardcore.

I know I cannot justify a $1400 AF meter for a $400 car.

Looks nice though.

Unfortunately, this is the difference between FD and FC owners (as a general rule). FC owners like the FC because it is inexpensive and still performs rather well. FC owners usually paid less than $1000 for the car and hesitate to spend more than about $200 at a time on it, while FD owners have money to spend and want nothing but the very best for their car.

I am using the Haltech dual-channel wideband that Ludwig Motorsports gave me a great deal on (one for each rotor). It works very well. Having tried Innovate and AEM in the past, I was tired of unreliability and inaccuracy and was willing to spend a little more. (I paid $319.05 for the 2-channel wideband and two sensors).

Calibration is super-easy, the accuracy matches the $1200 wideband on the dyno within 0.1 AFR and connection only requires 4 wires, power, ground, Wideband 1, Wideband 2. Additional sensors (the only part that fails over time) are also very reasonable in price.

Besides, Chris is a very pleasant guy to work with, he is fair, fast and upfront.

[djmtsu]

Originally Posted by NoDOHC

Unfortunately, this is the difference between FD and FC owners (as a general rule).

I'm an FB owner now, so I don't count.

Yes, I want to get a wideband to tune my 12a.

And there is no way I'm spending as much on a wideband as I did on the car, plus another car, plus a carb, fuel pump, wheels, interior, oil coolers, MSD box, etc, etc....pretty much everything I have into it doesn't equal what that Neko kit costs.

NGK here I come.

[speedjunkie]

^The only FC owner I can think of off the top of my head that disputes your theory is TTT lol.

I wish I could get a deal on a wideband like that, that wideband specifically would be nice.

I talked to Innovate tech support today and the first thing he said was my grounds were incorrect LOL. I told him I just grounded them to chassis but it worked for 3 years where it was grounded, not sure why. He then told me to disconnect yellow and brown from the Datalogit unless I was logging at the time, and said brown was the only one I'd need to hook up, and to leave yellow unplugged from anything. He said I should have the terminator plug in the 'IN' cable of the LC-1 and wouldn't you know I've lost that so I had to order another one today. He told me that was why I was getting the 3 dashes but I reminded him that this has been working for 3 years hooked up incorrectly like this. He also said I shouldn't have it on switched power, that it should be hooked up to a relay off of ignition power, or battery power, or both, I can't remember which. So until my terminator plug gets here on Friday I have no idea if it will even work. He did say the 3 dashes have nothing to do with the sensor being bad but I remember reading that in their documentation I believe. He said the 3 dashes only means that the LC-1 and XD-16 aren't communicating and that the wiring is bad somehow.

[C. Ludwig]

Originally Posted by speedjunkie

I wish I could get a deal on a wideband like that, that wideband specifically would be nice.

They're just a phone call away. Also have one left new old stock display gauge for the Haltech wideband that is no longer being produced. Was saving it for a personal project but opted for a Racepak dash instead of gauges.

Also now carrying the NGK AFX with the NTK sensor. I like it a lot, besides the rather clunky case/display.

[Mazdabater]

For the record I've spent probably 30k on my FC ROFL also shits alot dearer over here then it is there

[djmtsu]

Well then I guess I should go out and by a lift, since I need to bleed my brakes.

These jackstands are not going to cut it.

[vex]

This thread makes me laugh.

[speedjunkie]

Well it looks like the terminator plug did solve my problems, for now at least lol.