My mechanical preturbo water injection

drewrey2004 · 10-07-2009, 11:33 PM

Sounds good I'm sure I can figure it out now that I know someone else has done it. So with the intercooler and the SUE nozzle things should stay pretty cool?

dudemaaan · 10-08-2009, 12:38 AM

Oh for sure. The intercooler alone will help a lot. I am a bit curious how much preturbo would drop your temps. You could try your cooling mist preturbo just as an experiment.

drewrey2004 · 10-08-2009, 01:04 AM

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drewrey2004 · 10-08-2009, 02:52 AM

Actually I might wait awhile as I really think I need to beef up the ignition before I get a FMIC. I will try the preturbo method after the ignition is done and see where I'm at from there. I remember you saying in the Rx7club.com forum that water flashes at 212 degF and that's where the water really shines. I will drill out the nozzle for more flow and fit as much water as I can. If I'm fighting the temps from that point then the front mount will have to go in.

drewrey2004 · 10-08-2009, 08:39 AM

Hey Dudeman also wanted to let you know that you can replace the fluid cap and matching air cap to flow 1608cc at 20psi found on the ispray.com website. It's a little pricey though.

dudemaaan · 10-08-2009, 12:31 PM

They are all a little pricey, but yeah I saw you can get different sizes. The size goes up quite a bit after the 380cc nozzle. I think I also saw one that was 800cc or so. When I first did the setup I wasn't sure how much water I would need, after experimenting I decided I wanted more so I drilled it out. I might even go bigger at some point but it seems good where it's at.

I would not run my car hard at the air temps you're seeing. While it is true that water really shines at it's boiling point.... because it's boiling point is much higher then alcohol it won't bring the temps down as much. Take your cooling mist jet and stock it in front of the compressor. Do a few tests with it first, nothing bad will happen to your compressor short term and many people are running systems like that with a lot more water. It will at least tell you if you're on the right track.

It's quite possible the breakup you're experiencing is due to the extreme air temps you have, or because the water isn't atomized as well running the post turbo pump driven setup. Preturbo will atomize the water much better, regardless of the system type. That alone could help drastically reduce temps and the breakup you have. An intercooler would also allow you to run less water overall which will also put less strain on the ignition.

If you don't mind possibly having to run meth also and a larger nozzle then you can see what happens before adding an intercooler, but I have a feeling with water alone you'll need an intercooler too.

Personally I recommend moving the nozzle you have right now to the front of your turbo and just see. That won't cost you any money.

drewrey2004 · 10-08-2009, 03:34 PM

Actually I purchased a replacement cap that flows 1608cc at twenty psi and I was thinking running meth all the way or at least 50/50. Also I'm not experiencing any breakup but it does feel very sluggish up top as it drags to hit 8000 rpm. I just need to find a way to get meth around here or use washer fluid.

I will try it with the coolingmist jet in front first and see how works. I was going through some of the logs and noticed that on a hot day the IAT was at 145 degF cruising and at 10 psi would go up 10-15 degrees. At 15-16 it was reaching 175-185 degrees. Also I have an activation LED that lights up when the Coolingmist pump activates and noticed on some of my runs that it wouldn't light. It's the reason why I'm leaning towards the mechanical setup. The Coolingmist system is inconsistent from what I noticed and might be the reason why I'm seeing high temps.

And wanted to throw it out there and see if anyone has tried using Isopropyl. I noticed it's really cool to touch and read somewhere they used this type of alcohol testing AI. It's cheap and can mix it up using water.

dudemaaan · 10-08-2009, 07:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drewrey2004

Actually I purchased a replacement cap that flows 1608cc at twenty psi and I was thinking running meth all the way or at least 50/50. Also I'm not experiencing any breakup but it does feel very sluggish up top as it drags to hit 8000 rpm. I just need to find a way to get meth around here or use washer fluid.

I will try it with the coolingmist jet in front first and see how works. I was going through some of the logs and noticed that on a hot day the IAT was at 145 degF cruising and at 10 psi would go up 10-15 degrees. At 15-16 it was reaching 175-185 degrees. Also I have an activation LED that lights up when the Coolingmist pump activates and noticed on some of my runs that it wouldn't light. It's the reason why I'm leaning towards the mechanical setup. The Coolingmist system is inconsistent from what I noticed and might be the reason why I'm seeing high temps.

And wanted to throw it out there and see if anyone has tried using Isopropyl. I noticed it's really cool to touch and read somewhere they used this type of alcohol testing AI. It's cheap and can mix it up using water.

The density of the air at those temperatures is very low which means you make a lot less power. The same thing happens when you run a turbo past it's efficiency range. You make more heat then power. I'm not surprised that it feels sluggish. Falling off on top could also be caused by intake and exhaust restrictions. (turbine housing too small, exhaust too small, restrictive plumbing etc) An ignition system won't help unless you're not igniting the mixture completely, that doesn't sound like it's your issue. Once you try to burn 1600cc that may change. The alcohol will help with that though. You should have no problems with intake temps if running alcohol too.

Isopropyl can be used, the flash point isnt as low as methanol so it doesn't cool as much per volume, it also has a higher BTU then methanol so you will need to pull more fuel from the fuel maps compared to injecting the same amount of methanol. So if you're nozzle is a set size methanol will have more cooling ability while not effecting the fuel maps as much. If you can find methanol it's a better option and should cost less to run.

Also that 1600 cc nozzle will be using a lot of whatever you inject. You will want a fairly large tank to keep from needing to fill it all the time. Roughly you will be using about 1 gallon of water/alcohol every 2 and a half minutes of full boost. So 2 gallons every 5 minutes. You will want a constant supply of alcohol, you might look into ordering a big drum of it to save money.

drewrey2004 · 10-08-2009, 07:24 PM

Well I have 1.01 exhaust turbine housing and 3" exhaust all the way through. Also I have a 2.5" pipe from turbo to throttle body. I had a T-60 turbo before with a 1.15 turbine housing and the car felt pretty much the same way with the water/meth.

And the meth is hard to come by over here. Not sure where to look.

proz07 · 10-09-2009, 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dudemaaan

Yes, thats what I used, you will need aluminum wire, and argon shielding gas. It will take some practice but it's easy once you have it all setup. Don't even try without the gas, you will fail. Or you can take it somewhere and have it welded.

I like your style dudemaaan i was tempted to go that route with mine but after all the research i ended up getting a TIG for the ease of welding aluminum in A/C. of course i went overboard like everything i do and picked up a miller dynasty 200dx lol probably could have easily done all i wanted with a hobart tigmate but oh well its easily paying for itself with all the aluminum iv been dooing for my car

you have any pics of the welds it comes out with im interested to know if i just spent too much andthat would have been goood enough for what i want. LOL hell i didnt even know how to tig when i got it taught myself hopefully ill get some classes in soon for it.

sorry nothing to do with this thread but had to ask

z

dudemaaan · 10-09-2009, 04:26 PM

I don't have any pics of the welds, most of them are hidden under couplers and such. It's been raining out here the last week but when it stops I'll see about taking some pics. Tig is definitely nicer, I have a tig welder too but not the right type for aluminum, I use it for stainless steel. The mig welds come out just like you would expect any steel welds to come out with a mig welder.

dudemaaan · 10-09-2009, 04:32 PM

Here you can kinda see one in the right bottom corner in line with the corner of the battery. I dont have a closeup. There is also one by the BOV, but it came out kinda globby due to the different thickness' it was harder to weld. I ground it down later on but it's not shown in any of the pics.

proz07 · 10-09-2009, 04:35 PM

not the right type for aluminum? what is it? if its d/c whats the difference from using it compared to your d/c mig unless the mig is a/c switchable? not that it matters i guess its working for your needs.

BTW cant wait to make a water injection kit when i get return from the desert using alot of your info i really like it.

z

dudemaaan · 10-09-2009, 05:08 PM

Yes the tig welder is DC, I gave it a shot to start with and it came out like shit, It was impossible to weld. Ended up with it blowing out, not sticking, turning black. Was utter shit, and I can weld with about anything.

Why it works on a DC Mig welder? I have no idea but it does. I had to reverse the polarity of the ground clamp and trigger, but from the get go it worked smooth as butter. Except the one time I tried without the argon flowing, then flashbacks of the DC tig experience started manifesting themselves and i'm like wtf is happening. The welds didn't stick, had terrible penetration and weren't smooth at all.

proz07 · 10-09-2009, 09:50 PM

ya sounds about right for d/c lol reading up on it when i was buying my tig found that the a/c perfered for aluminum as the alternation of the ground and tourch create a ripple effect in the pool bringing your contaminants to the surface giving you that mirror pool to work with and know whats happening the d/c does not.

and yes i know the reversing the polarities for the d/c mig aluminum welding but from the sound of it you were having issues with the tig that were fixed buy the constant cooler wire feeding your pool keeping the temps in check and being that your constantly adding filler that way your also moving fast enough to keep the base metal cool enough to weld yet not blow through.

yup i actually was gonna try welding with the mig in aluminum... hell i even have a 2lb spool of aluminum wire lol just never did and picked up the tig maybe ill try it out one day when im bored just cause i can

damn see turned your thread into a welding discusion and back to the topic....

z

10-08-2009, 12:38 AM	#47
dudemaaan Rotary Fanatic Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Brenham, TX iTrader: (4) Posts: 335 Rep Power: 17	Oh for sure. The intercooler alone will help a lot. I am a bit curious how much preturbo would drop your temps. You could try your cooling mist preturbo just as an experiment. __________________ 500+ HP thanks to: Fast reacting IAT sensor thread! Mechanical Pre-turbo Water Injection Thread Dual Stock fuel pumps Thread T2 differential swap!

10-08-2009, 01:04 AM	#48
drewrey2004 The Newbie Join Date: Oct 2009 iTrader: (0) Posts: 15 Rep Power: 0	... Last edited by drewrey2004; 10-08-2009 at 08:49 AM..

10-08-2009, 12:31 PM	#51
dudemaaan Rotary Fanatic Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Brenham, TX iTrader: (4) Posts: 335 Rep Power: 17	They are all a little pricey, but yeah I saw you can get different sizes. The size goes up quite a bit after the 380cc nozzle. I think I also saw one that was 800cc or so. When I first did the setup I wasn't sure how much water I would need, after experimenting I decided I wanted more so I drilled it out. I might even go bigger at some point but it seems good where it's at. I would not run my car hard at the air temps you're seeing. While it is true that water really shines at it's boiling point.... because it's boiling point is much higher then alcohol it won't bring the temps down as much. Take your cooling mist jet and stock it in front of the compressor. Do a few tests with it first, nothing bad will happen to your compressor short term and many people are running systems like that with a lot more water. It will at least tell you if you're on the right track. It's quite possible the breakup you're experiencing is due to the extreme air temps you have, or because the water isn't atomized as well running the post turbo pump driven setup. Preturbo will atomize the water much better, regardless of the system type. That alone could help drastically reduce temps and the breakup you have. An intercooler would also allow you to run less water overall which will also put less strain on the ignition. If you don't mind possibly having to run meth also and a larger nozzle then you can see what happens before adding an intercooler, but I have a feeling with water alone you'll need an intercooler too. Personally I recommend moving the nozzle you have right now to the front of your turbo and just see. That won't cost you any money. __________________ 500+ HP thanks to: Fast reacting IAT sensor thread! Mechanical Pre-turbo Water Injection Thread Dual Stock fuel pumps Thread T2 differential swap!

10-08-2009, 03:34 PM	#52
drewrey2004 The Newbie Join Date: Oct 2009 iTrader: (0) Posts: 15 Rep Power: 0	Actually I purchased a replacement cap that flows 1608cc at twenty psi and I was thinking running meth all the way or at least 50/50. Also I'm not experiencing any breakup but it does feel very sluggish up top as it drags to hit 8000 rpm. I just need to find a way to get meth around here or use washer fluid. I will try it with the coolingmist jet in front first and see how works. I was going through some of the logs and noticed that on a hot day the IAT was at 145 degF cruising and at 10 psi would go up 10-15 degrees. At 15-16 it was reaching 175-185 degrees. Also I have an activation LED that lights up when the Coolingmist pump activates and noticed on some of my runs that it wouldn't light. It's the reason why I'm leaning towards the mechanical setup. The Coolingmist system is inconsistent from what I noticed and might be the reason why I'm seeing high temps. And wanted to throw it out there and see if anyone has tried using Isopropyl. I noticed it's really cool to touch and read somewhere they used this type of alcohol testing AI. It's cheap and can mix it up using water. Last edited by drewrey2004; 10-08-2009 at 03:51 PM..

10-08-2009, 07:24 PM	#54
drewrey2004 The Newbie Join Date: Oct 2009 iTrader: (0) Posts: 15 Rep Power: 0	Well I have 1.01 exhaust turbine housing and 3" exhaust all the way through. Also I have a 2.5" pipe from turbo to throttle body. I had a T-60 turbo before with a 1.15 turbine housing and the car felt pretty much the same way with the water/meth. And the meth is hard to come by over here. Not sure where to look. Last edited by drewrey2004; 10-08-2009 at 07:27 PM..

10-07-2009, 11:33 PM	#46
drewrey2004 The Newbie Join Date: Oct 2009 iTrader: (0) Posts: 15 Rep Power: 0	Sounds good I'm sure I can figure it out now that I know someone else has done it. So with the intercooler and the SUE nozzle things should stay pretty cool?

10-08-2009, 02:52 AM	#49
drewrey2004 The Newbie Join Date: Oct 2009 iTrader: (0) Posts: 15 Rep Power: 0	Actually I might wait awhile as I really think I need to beef up the ignition before I get a FMIC. I will try the preturbo method after the ignition is done and see where I'm at from there. I remember you saying in the Rx7club.com forum that water flashes at 212 degF and that's where the water really shines. I will drill out the nozzle for more flow and fit as much water as I can. If I'm fighting the temps from that point then the front mount will have to go in.

10-08-2009, 08:39 AM	#50
drewrey2004 The Newbie Join Date: Oct 2009 iTrader: (0) Posts: 15 Rep Power: 0	Hey Dudeman also wanted to let you know that you can replace the fluid cap and matching air cap to flow 1608cc at 20psi found on the ispray.com website. It's a little pricey though.

10-09-2009, 04:26 PM	#56
dudemaaan Rotary Fanatic Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Brenham, TX iTrader: (4) Posts: 335 Rep Power: 17	I don't have any pics of the welds, most of them are hidden under couplers and such. It's been raining out here the last week but when it stops I'll see about taking some pics. Tig is definitely nicer, I have a tig welder too but not the right type for aluminum, I use it for stainless steel. The mig welds come out just like you would expect any steel welds to come out with a mig welder. __________________ 500+ HP thanks to: Fast reacting IAT sensor thread! Mechanical Pre-turbo Water Injection Thread Dual Stock fuel pumps Thread T2 differential swap!

10-09-2009, 04:32 PM	#57
dudemaaan Rotary Fanatic Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Brenham, TX iTrader: (4) Posts: 335 Rep Power: 17	Here you can kinda see one in the right bottom corner in line with the corner of the battery. I dont have a closeup. There is also one by the BOV, but it came out kinda globby due to the different thickness' it was harder to weld. I ground it down later on but it's not shown in any of the pics. __________________ 500+ HP thanks to: Fast reacting IAT sensor thread! Mechanical Pre-turbo Water Injection Thread Dual Stock fuel pumps Thread T2 differential swap!

10-09-2009, 04:35 PM	#58
proz07 Needing a new tow rig. Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: AR iTrader: (0) Posts: 245 Rep Power: 17	not the right type for aluminum? what is it? if its d/c whats the difference from using it compared to your d/c mig unless the mig is a/c switchable? not that it matters i guess its working for your needs. BTW cant wait to make a water injection kit when i get return from the desert using alot of your info i really like it. z

10-09-2009, 05:08 PM	#59
dudemaaan Rotary Fanatic Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Brenham, TX iTrader: (4) Posts: 335 Rep Power: 17	Yes the tig welder is DC, I gave it a shot to start with and it came out like shit, It was impossible to weld. Ended up with it blowing out, not sticking, turning black. Was utter shit, and I can weld with about anything. Why it works on a DC Mig welder? I have no idea but it does. I had to reverse the polarity of the ground clamp and trigger, but from the get go it worked smooth as butter. Except the one time I tried without the argon flowing, then flashbacks of the DC tig experience started manifesting themselves and i'm like wtf is happening. The welds didn't stick, had terrible penetration and weren't smooth at all. __________________ 500+ HP thanks to: Fast reacting IAT sensor thread! Mechanical Pre-turbo Water Injection Thread Dual Stock fuel pumps Thread T2 differential swap!

10-09-2009, 09:50 PM	#60
proz07 Needing a new tow rig. Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: AR iTrader: (0) Posts: 245 Rep Power: 17	ya sounds about right for d/c lol reading up on it when i was buying my tig found that the a/c perfered for aluminum as the alternation of the ground and tourch create a ripple effect in the pool bringing your contaminants to the surface giving you that mirror pool to work with and know whats happening the d/c does not. and yes i know the reversing the polarities for the d/c mig aluminum welding but from the sound of it you were having issues with the tig that were fixed buy the constant cooler wire feeding your pool keeping the temps in check and being that your constantly adding filler that way your also moving fast enough to keep the base metal cool enough to weld yet not blow through. yup i actually was gonna try welding with the mig in aluminum... hell i even have a 2lb spool of aluminum wire lol just never did and picked up the tig maybe ill try it out one day when im bored just cause i can damn see turned your thread into a welding discusion and back to the topic.... z