Car won't start

jahjahsqc · 12-14-2013, 02:13 PM

History:
This is my frist rotary. But Ive worked on plenty of cars before. Bought the car from a coworker. He had popped the old motor and was going to put in a new motor he got from his work(unkown miles but was running strong when pulled. Has goopy apex seals and street port), haltech and a big turbo(i think?). But he sold it to me. I just want a nice running car. So I put the factory harness back in, factory ECU and factory turbo. The motor had set for at least a year or longer before I got it. It had been "pickeled" with ATF.

What I've replaced
All new water hoses. Samco radiator and all other OEM. OEM gaskets. Before installing the wiring harness I looked it over and it was crunchy and the injector connectors were toast. I soldered/heat shrunk four new connectors on. I've done many complete megasquirt custom harnesses and splice jobs and never had a problem with my connections. I put in OEM plugs. Car has new factory plug wires, corksport intake pipe, corksport charge pipe, stock intercooler. Injectors were tested and cleaned. Pretty much everything is stock.

Which leads me to...
It will not run. I have double checked connections. I made the engine harness is grounded to the factroy location. It has spark. I can smell fuel in the exhaust. Pump is pumping just fine(walbro 255). I rigged a test light, primary injectors are firing. I have no blown fuses. I've tested timing and the mark is exactly matched up with the pin on the front cover when firing. (is this right?) I've also tried turning the crank sensor all the way out either way and no change. I've also done a compression test. Engine bumps 90 psi. The thing that really confuses me is... I havent heard it fire once. No sputtering or anything. No backfiring.

Any ideas in which direction to go next?

Whizbang · 12-14-2013, 04:36 PM

is the CAS set properly (set to the indention not the roll pin and used the first timing mark, yellow)?

how are the plugs? you didn't say new, so not sure what condition. i had all the same operational items, but the car would not start until i change the plugs out.

what is the fuel pressure like?

is the spark wire order correct? how did you determine spark?

jahjahsqc · 12-14-2013, 10:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Whizbang

is the CAS set properly (set to the indention not the roll pin and used the first timing mark, yellow)?

how are the plugs? you didn't say new, so not sure what condition. i had all the same operational items, but the car would not start until i change the plugs out.

what is the fuel pressure like?

is the spark wire order correct? how did you determine spark?

I set the CAS from the service manual.

Yeah i bought new plugs from the dealer. Have Leading in leading and trailing in trailing.

I have not tested fuel pressure, but fuel pumps out of the back side of the secondary fuel rail very strong.

Yes, double triple checked plug order.

I determined spark by cranking the car and making sure the plug wire would arc to a grounded nut on the strut tower.

Ubaru · 12-15-2013, 01:28 AM

I know in my 1983 i installed a nascar style fuel controll system. i shut the pumps off before i pull in to park. mine likes to flood though. i run the second pump for better pressure when im racing. basicaly running a 5 psi and a 3 psi booster for high rpm. pulled the ecu limiters and a guy rerouted the carbon can to run into the carb, when she was running right it was monsterous. I wish you luck on this it sounds like fun, an if you need any crazy air intake mod ideas for carb or fuel injection it's what i do.

RETed · 12-15-2013, 06:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ubaru

I know in my 1983 i installed a nascar style fuel controll system. i shut the pumps off before i pull in to park. mine likes to flood though. i run the second pump for better pressure when im racing. basicaly running a 5 psi and a 3 psi booster for high rpm. pulled the ecu limiters and a guy rerouted the carbon can to run into the carb, when she was running right it was monsterous. I wish you luck on this it sounds like fun, an if you need any crazy air intake mod ideas for carb or fuel injection it's what i do.

NO.

-Ted

jahjahsqc · 12-17-2013, 10:27 AM

little update...

Brought home a can of starter fluid and it actually ran on that. So clearly I have a fuel problem, Injectors were cleaned before installing into this car and I rigged a test light to make sure the injectors are firing, I have good fuel pressure too. And yet the injectors are still not firing. So i'm going to pull all that back apart and carefully check everything.

***TitaniumTT*** · 12-17-2013, 11:25 AM

Walblow... make sure it has decent pressure

How long did the injectors sit after cleaning and before installation

Is this a Jspec engine... the fuel lines are run backwards compared to their USDM counterparts....

My money is on the walblow though... those pumps suck

RETed · 12-17-2013, 11:53 AM

How long were the fuel injectors sitting around before you used them for the first time?
A lot of cleaners will cause the fuel injectors to get stuck if left for over several weeks.
Check with the shop that did the cleaning if this were the case...

You can verify this by "wiring" (i.e. use pieces of wire or wire tie) the fuel injectors to the fuel rail.
Pull the fuel injectors and fuel rail at the same time.
Place a rag under the tips.
Have a friend crank the car...
Visually confirm you get "squirts" of fuel.

-Ted

jahjahsqc · 12-17-2013, 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TitaniumTT

Walblow... make sure it has decent pressure

How long did the injectors sit after cleaning and before installation

Is this a Jspec engine... the fuel lines are run backwards compared to their USDM counterparts....

My money is on the walblow though... those pumps suck

really? I've used walbro in a few different applications over years and never heard of a problem. I know there were some problems with counterfeits floating around. I'm definitely going to check fuel pressure.

Fuel injectors were cleaned by a fuel injection shop about.... 8/9 months ago?

definitely not a jspec engine.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RETed

How long were the fuel injectors sitting around before you used them for the first time?
A lot of cleaners will cause the fuel injectors to get stuck if left for over several weeks.
Check with the shop that did the cleaning if this were the case...

You can verify this by "wiring" (i.e. use pieces of wire or wire tie) the fuel injectors to the fuel rail.
Pull the fuel injectors and fuel rail at the same time.
Place a rag under the tips.
Have a friend crank the car...
Visually confirm you get "squirts" of fuel.

-Ted

8/9 months after getting them back
I rigged a test light to verify that the injectors were firing. So I know I'm getting a signal to the injectors. If it comes to it I'll have to pull them and test to make sure they spray. I've got a couple other things to check and I'll report my results back.

thanks fellas!

***TitaniumTT*** · 12-17-2013, 05:25 PM

Yes... walblows are the worst pump you can put into a rotary.... just throw that thing out and get a denso replacement pump and be happy....

As far as I can tell, and Ted agrees, there's two things to check here.... proper fuel pressure, and if the injectors are actually firing....

Also,..,.. I noticed that you said compression was 90psi..... how did you test this? If your tested it with a piston engine compressor without removing the Schrader valve... you could have 2 blown rotors and not know it....

RETed · 12-17-2013, 07:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jahjahsqc

8/9 months after getting them back
I rigged a test light to verify that the injectors were firing. So I know I'm getting a signal to the injectors. If it comes to it I'll have to pull them and test to make sure they spray.

I put money the fuel injectors are seized.

Anything beyond a month is no guarantee.

If you have delicate fingers (touching the fuel injectors body) or are very good hearing (use a length of hose stuck in your ear and the other end to the fuel injector body), you can actually feel / hear the fuel injectors clicking...
I normally would just pull them and wire them to the fuel rail, as this test will surely confirm if they are shooting fuel or not.

-Ted

jahjahsqc · 12-17-2013, 07:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TitaniumTT

Yes... walblows are the worst pump you can put into a rotary.... just throw that thing out and get a denso replacement pump and be happy....

As far as I can tell, and Ted agrees, there's two things to check here.... proper fuel pressure, and if the injectors are actually firing....

Also,..,.. I noticed that you said compression was 90psi..... how did you test this? If your tested it with a piston engine compressor without removing the Schrader valve... you could have 2 blown rotors and not know it....

Well, only the cylinder #1 injector is firing, injector bank 2 is not. Gonna swap an injector from the secondary row, but got tired of messing with it tonight.

Nope, I read on it before testing, pulled the schrader valve it bounced up to 90 psi. I figured that wasn't too bad for a motor thats sit for a year or more.

jahjahsqc · 12-17-2013, 07:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RETed

I put money the fuel injectors are seized.

Anything beyond a month is no guarantee.

If you have delicate fingers (touching the fuel injectors body) or are very good hearing (use a length of hose stuck in your ear and the other end to the fuel injector body), you can actually feel / hear the fuel injectors clicking...
I normally would just pull them and wire them to the fuel rail, as this test will surely confirm if they are shooting fuel or not.

-Ted

Yup, you typed as i was replying to the other one. I'm going to swap an injector and see what happens.

I decided to pull the connectors and test both of them. Only the bank 1 injector is firing. So i've got some kind of wiring issue... yay

12-14-2013, 04:36 PM	#2
Whizbang Respecognize! Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Δx = ħ/2Δp iTrader: (5) Posts: 3,190 Rep Power: 20	is the CAS set properly (set to the indention not the roll pin and used the first timing mark, yellow)? how are the plugs? you didn't say new, so not sure what condition. i had all the same operational items, but the car would not start until i change the plugs out. what is the fuel pressure like? is the spark wire order correct? how did you determine spark? __________________ For current updates and event coverage check out Follow on Twitter! @WhizbangRally Whizbang Rally's Webpage \| Facebook

12-17-2013, 11:25 AM	#7
*TitaniumTT* Test Whore - Admin Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Right Behind you son iTrader: (4) Posts: 4,581 Rep Power: 10	Walblow... make sure it has decent pressure How long did the injectors sit after cleaning and before installation Is this a Jspec engine... the fuel lines are run backwards compared to their USDM counterparts.... My money is on the walblow though... those pumps suck __________________ -The Angry Stig- DGRR 2009, 2011, 2012 & 2013 - Best FC DEALS GAP!! WOOHOOOO!!!!! 2015 Audi S4 - Samantha - Zero Brap S4 2004 RX8 - Jocelyn - 196rwhp, 19mpg fuel to noise converter 2000 Jeep Cherokee Sport - Wifey mobile - Now with 2.5" OME lift and 30" BFG AT KO's! So it begins 1998 Jeep Cherokee - 5 spd, 4" lift, 33" BFG's - Rotary Tow Vehicle 1988 'Vert - In progress 1988 FC Coupe - Gretchen -The attention whore BEAST! I'm a sick individual, what's wrong with you? I'm pure Evil I'm still insane, in the best possible way. I think Brian's idea of romance is using lube. Your rage caused the meteor strike in Russia. The Antichrist would be proud of his minion. You win with your thread. Most everything It's a truck with a steel gate on the back. Just a statement of fact Motec M820, AIM dash, ported 13B-RE Cosmo, 6-spd trans, 4.3 Torsen, custom twin wg fully divided mani, Custom 4" split into 2x 3" exhaust, Custom HMIC, Custom custom custom custom I like to welder stuff.... No Bolt-ons allowed. Dyno'ed @ Speed1 Tuned by me - 405rwhp on WG.... WM50 cuming soon. *-Angry Motherfcker Mode ENGAGED-**

12-17-2013, 05:25 PM	#10
*TitaniumTT* Test Whore - Admin Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Right Behind you son iTrader: (4) Posts: 4,581 Rep Power: 10	Yes... walblows are the worst pump you can put into a rotary.... just throw that thing out and get a denso replacement pump and be happy.... As far as I can tell, and Ted agrees, there's two things to check here.... proper fuel pressure, and if the injectors are actually firing.... Also,..,.. I noticed that you said compression was 90psi..... how did you test this? If your tested it with a piston engine compressor without removing the Schrader valve... you could have 2 blown rotors and not know it.... __________________ -The Angry Stig- DGRR 2009, 2011, 2012 & 2013 - Best FC DEALS GAP!! WOOHOOOO!!!!! 2015 Audi S4 - Samantha - Zero Brap S4 2004 RX8 - Jocelyn - 196rwhp, 19mpg fuel to noise converter 2000 Jeep Cherokee Sport - Wifey mobile - Now with 2.5" OME lift and 30" BFG AT KO's! So it begins 1998 Jeep Cherokee - 5 spd, 4" lift, 33" BFG's - Rotary Tow Vehicle 1988 'Vert - In progress 1988 FC Coupe - Gretchen -The attention whore BEAST! I'm a sick individual, what's wrong with you? I'm pure Evil I'm still insane, in the best possible way. I think Brian's idea of romance is using lube. Your rage caused the meteor strike in Russia. The Antichrist would be proud of his minion. You win with your thread. Most everything It's a truck with a steel gate on the back. Just a statement of fact Motec M820, AIM dash, ported 13B-RE Cosmo, 6-spd trans, 4.3 Torsen, custom twin wg fully divided mani, Custom 4" split into 2x 3" exhaust, Custom HMIC, Custom custom custom custom I like to welder stuff.... No Bolt-ons allowed. Dyno'ed @ Speed1 Tuned by me - 405rwhp on WG.... WM50 cuming soon. *-Angry Motherfcker Mode ENGAGED-**

12-14-2013, 02:13 PM	#1
jahjahsqc Rotary Fan in Training Join Date: Sep 2013 Location: Winder, Ga iTrader: (0) Posts: 42 Rep Power: 0	Car won't start History: This is my frist rotary. But Ive worked on plenty of cars before. Bought the car from a coworker. He had popped the old motor and was going to put in a new motor he got from his work(unkown miles but was running strong when pulled. Has goopy apex seals and street port), haltech and a big turbo(i think?). But he sold it to me. I just want a nice running car. So I put the factory harness back in, factory ECU and factory turbo. The motor had set for at least a year or longer before I got it. It had been "pickeled" with ATF. What I've replaced All new water hoses. Samco radiator and all other OEM. OEM gaskets. Before installing the wiring harness I looked it over and it was crunchy and the injector connectors were toast. I soldered/heat shrunk four new connectors on. I've done many complete megasquirt custom harnesses and splice jobs and never had a problem with my connections. I put in OEM plugs. Car has new factory plug wires, corksport intake pipe, corksport charge pipe, stock intercooler. Injectors were tested and cleaned. Pretty much everything is stock. Which leads me to... It will not run. I have double checked connections. I made the engine harness is grounded to the factroy location. It has spark. I can smell fuel in the exhaust. Pump is pumping just fine(walbro 255). I rigged a test light, primary injectors are firing. I have no blown fuses. I've tested timing and the mark is exactly matched up with the pin on the front cover when firing. (is this right?) I've also tried turning the crank sensor all the way out either way and no change. I've also done a compression test. Engine bumps 90 psi. The thing that really confuses me is... I havent heard it fire once. No sputtering or anything. No backfiring. Any ideas in which direction to go next?

12-15-2013, 01:28 AM	#4
Ubaru Rotary Fan in Training Join Date: Oct 2013 Location: Twin falls iTrader: (0) Posts: 44 Rep Power: 0	I know in my 1983 i installed a nascar style fuel controll system. i shut the pumps off before i pull in to park. mine likes to flood though. i run the second pump for better pressure when im racing. basicaly running a 5 psi and a 3 psi booster for high rpm. pulled the ecu limiters and a guy rerouted the carbon can to run into the carb, when she was running right it was monsterous. I wish you luck on this it sounds like fun, an if you need any crazy air intake mod ideas for carb or fuel injection it's what i do.

12-17-2013, 10:27 AM	#6
jahjahsqc Rotary Fan in Training Join Date: Sep 2013 Location: Winder, Ga iTrader: (0) Posts: 42 Rep Power: 0	little update... Brought home a can of starter fluid and it actually ran on that. So clearly I have a fuel problem, Injectors were cleaned before installing into this car and I rigged a test light to make sure the injectors are firing, I have good fuel pressure too. And yet the injectors are still not firing. So i'm going to pull all that back apart and carefully check everything.